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Adjustable stem and other

Old 01-05-17, 07:27 PM
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gycho77
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Adjustable stem and other

So I am planning to make an adjustable stem with Ditobici.
I know there were adjustable stems on the market like Look Ergostem,
but I always felt that they flex too much.
I want to make an adjustable stem that is stiff with modern clamping size

I know regular stems are better than adjustable stems, but it would be helpful when we have a high-quality adjustable stem.

I want to hear your ideas and designs, so I can send the design to Ditobici
Also if you have any parts you have in mind please tell me, so Ditobici could make a prototype.
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Old 01-05-17, 09:10 PM
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You felt they flexed to much, or thought they flexed too much?
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Old 01-05-17, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by taras0000 View Post
You felt they flexed to much, or thought they flexed too much?
I felt they flexed too much compare to my current stem.
So I am the only one who is thinking this way?
Even S-work alloy stem was flexing too much
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Old 01-05-17, 10:22 PM
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I think your ergostem is either broken or has some parts within it that are not up to specifications (bolts or washers from somewhere else).

The ergostem is very stiff when used properly. I used one for years and only sold it when I sold my LOOK 496. Here it is on my former Tiemeyer:

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Old 01-05-17, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
I think your ergostem is either broken or has some parts within it that are not up to specifications (bolts or washers from somewhere else).

The ergostem is very stiff when used properly. I used one for years and only sold it when I sold my LOOK 496. Here it is on my former Tiemeyer:

Hum...
That's really weird, the ergostem was NOS and it was in really good condition.
My friend has 4 ergostem and he said it was fine
I think the ergostem had similar stiffness as S-Work alloy stem.
Maybe I feel this way, because I am currently using a steel stem.
Because when I switched to Nitto UI-2, it was uncomfortably stiff.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/24162181@N02/14140105420
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Old 01-05-17, 11:51 PM
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Originally Posted by gycho77 View Post
Hum...
That's really weird, the ergostem was NOS and it was in really good condition.
My friend has 4 ergostem and he said it was fine
I think the ergostem had similar stiffness as S-Work alloy stem.
Maybe I feel this way, because I am currently using a steel stem.
Because when I switched to Nitto UI-2, it was uncomfortably stiff.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/24162181@N02/14140105420
Hmmmm...

Well, maybe you are more sensitive to stiffness than I am.

The real value of the ergostem is when you are tinkering with your fit. Buying every length/angle combination of stem is expensive and swapping them out is time consuming. I primarily used mine for that reason and once I settled on a length and angle, I would buy the equivalent rigid stem.

So, having a custom adjustable stem made probably won't be any stiffer than what you've already got. Plus, ideally, you'll want to swap it out for a rigid stem once you settle on a position.

It's a cool project. But, I don't think it's gonna solve any problem that the Ergostem isn't already solving.

One question:

Do you have the quill ergostem?




or the modern one?

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Old 01-06-17, 01:21 AM
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Hmmmm...

Well, maybe you are more sensitive to stiffness than I am.

The real value of the ergostem is when you are tinkering with your fit. Buying every length/angle combination of stem is expensive and swapping them out is time consuming. I primarily used mine for that reason and once I settled on a length and angle, I would buy the equivalent rigid stem.

So, having a custom adjustable stem made probably won't be any stiffer than what you've already got. Plus, ideally, you'll want to swap it out for a rigid stem once you settle on a position.

It's a cool project. But, I don't think it's gonna solve any problem that the Ergostem isn't already solving.

One question:

Do you have the quill ergostem?




or the modern one?

I had Quill stem version.
That might be the reason.

Also i definitely agree with you. That's why I purchased ergostem, but now I want to tune my position again. I want to try other positions like current Graeme Obree
http://cdn.mos.bikeradar.imdserve.co...0t-630-354.jpg

Ditobici wants to make parts for track cyclists. Can you give us any good ideas?

Thanks
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Old 01-06-17, 01:57 AM
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Originally Posted by gycho77 View Post
I had Quill stem version.
That might be the reason.
That's probably it.

Originally Posted by gycho77 View Post
Ditobici wants to make parts for track cyclists. Can you give us any good ideas?
The best advice I can give you is to:
  1. Use modern components that are easy to get and are inexpensive.
  2. Use modern components because they solve the problems that existed with "old school" components.

Vintage stuff is nice. But, people stopped using that stuff for a reason. If it were a good idea, it lasted. If a better idea came along, it was replaced.

Vintage bikes are not bad. The biggest problem with them is finding parts.

There have been A LOT of racers that start out using vintage bikes, either because they love them, think they are better (somehow), or that's all they have. But, if they hang around long enough, most of them upgrade to modern gear for the reasons mentioned above.

It's one thing if you are an old guy and you know exactly what you want and you aren't gonna change any parts out looking for a better fit. But, you are a young guy looking to experiment. Experimenting with vintage parts is expensive and annoying.

Learn from my mistakes

The first track frame that I bought to actually race was an old Shaklee Marin team frame (made for Olympian Kent Bostick).

(similar to this, but not this one)



I thought it was awesome...til I started looking for parts. Quill stems are impossible to find locally. (I bet that's the problem you are having now, hence the ergostem). And swapping bars is a pain in the ass... (gotta remove the grip/griptape every time) and the dropouts are really short. And it's not as stiff as modern bikes.

I was so frustrated with "the hunt" for parts that it never saw the track. I rode it on the road a few times then sold it and bought a Planet X.

Why not use a quill stem adapter + modern stems? It's not pretty, but it's MUCH easier to work with than quill stems.


Last edited by carleton; 01-06-17 at 02:04 AM.
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Old 01-06-17, 02:15 AM
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
That's probably it.



The best advice I can give you is to:
  1. Use modern components that are easy to get and are inexpensive.
  2. Use modern components because they solve the problems that existed with "old school" components.

Vintage stuff is nice. But, people stopped using that stuff for a reason. If it were a good idea, it lasted. If a better idea came along, it was replaced.

Vintage bikes are not bad. The biggest problem with them is finding parts.

There have been A LOT of racers that start out using vintage bikes, either because they love them, think they are better (somehow), or that's all they have. But, if they hang around long enough, most of them upgrade to modern gear for the reasons mentioned above.

It's one thing if you are an old guy and you know exactly what you want and you aren't gonna change any parts out looking for a better fit. But, you are a young guy looking to experiment. Experimenting with vintage parts is expensive and annoying.

Learn from my mistakes

The first track frame that I bought to actually race was an old Shaklee Marin team frame (made for Olympian Kent Bostick).

(similar to this, but not this one)



I thought it was awesome...til I started looking for parts. Quill stems are impossible to find locally. (I bet that's the problem you are having now, hence the ergostem). And swapping bars is a pain in the ass... (gotta remove the grip/griptape every time) and the dropouts are really short. And it's not as stiff as modern bikes.

I was so frustrated with "the hunt" for parts that it never saw the track. I rode it on the road a few times then sold it and bought a Planet X.

Why not use a quill stem adapter + modern stems? It's not pretty, but it's MUCH easier to work with than quill stems.

I am not using anymore vintage parts.
I even changed my headset to accept Alpina fork.
So now I am using modern stem, crank, and wheel
I just have to change frame and handlebar to be 100percent modern haha

Also we are trying to make parts that help modern track parts.
I know you have some complains about track frames on the market, but I am not sure if you have a complain about parts.
If you do have a complain please tell me, so I could tell Ditobici and he might fix that problem and make a prototype.

Originally Posted by gycho77 View Post





Last edited by gycho77; 01-06-17 at 02:22 AM.
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Old 01-06-17, 02:22 AM
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Originally Posted by gycho77 View Post
I am not using anymore vintage parts.
I even changed my headset to accept Alpina fork.
So now I am using modern stem, crank, and wheel
I just have to change frame and handlebar to be 100percent modern haha

Also we are trying to make parts that help modern track parts.
I know you have some complains about track frames on the market, but I am not sure if you have a complain about parts.
If you do have a complain please tell me, so I could tell Ditobici and he might fix that problem and make a prototype.
Ah!

My suggestion:

Make a dropout system like this for steel or aluminum bikes:



...that uses titanium inserts.

Sell them to bike builders.
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Old 01-06-17, 02:47 AM
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Ah!

My suggestion:

Make a dropout system like this for steel or aluminum bikes:



...that uses titanium inserts.

Sell them to bike builders.
I see
Your only complain is the dropout.
I was expecting like pedal strap adapter
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Old 01-06-17, 03:01 AM
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Originally Posted by gycho77 View Post
I see
Your only complain is the dropout.
I was expecting like pedal strap adapter
Ha! That would be easier.

This style is nice, but it would require that people drill into their pedals.

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Old 01-06-17, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by gycho77 View Post
I see
Your only complain is the dropout.
I was expecting like pedal strap adapter
I'm with carleton on this one. Bicycles are fascinating in that they are extremely simple (at least track bikes are), yet people will try to come up with a "better solution" to what has already evolved over 200 years of trial and error, engineering, and wacky stabs in the dark.

I'm not saying we have to stop improving. If one wants to improve the hardware we use, then one has to take a look at what each piece is meant to do (it's primary function), what attributes of it's design contribute to it's execution, and how those attributes interact to arrive at some sort of ideal mix.

Cake is meant to be a dessert. Certain ingredients and actions serve to make it a cake. Altering the ingredients, the actions, or the amounts of either will have an effect on how your cake turns out. It's fine to play with these. The problem is when we look to make our cake better because we also feel like eating a burger. That's what happened with your take on the Ergostem and your version of a better one.

The ergostem serves one primary purpose, and one secondary purpose, both of which are complimentary. The first is as a fitting tool, the second is as a piece of everyday equipment. As a fitting tool, it is perfect. It allows for an extremely large number of angles, reach, and combinations of both to be used in a real world setting. It is robust enough that it allows a cyclist to race as they normally would, with no detriment to their performance arising from its design. This is the reason it also performs its secondary purpose quite well. It can be used, without harming performance, by someone who cannot attain their best position through stock stems. It also happens to perform these two functions in a relatively light, simple, stable package.

So look at it like this: Can you make a stem that is more adjustable (does this item improve fit)? Will it be as stable/more stable (will it perform as well or better)? Will it be as simple/simpler (is it as user friendly or better)? Will it improve performance in any measurable way by using it versus an ergostem (simply put, will it improve performance over a standard version)? If you can't answer yes to all of those questions, then you are setting up for a very expensive failure.

The reason the Ergostem is what it is arises from the fact that it was such a radical departure from everything else. Just like those BT dropouts. Everyone else has been tweaking the same design in miniscule ways. Most were different just for the sake of being different. Historically the dropout was integral to the stays/frame. Steel frames had steel track ends, and they lasted forever and no one had problems with them. The we started to make frames from other materials and we realized that the frame material wasn't so great for track ends, so designers looked for ways to integrate steel into their dropout. The best ones had improvements that were small in some cases, but most were worse than the original steel track end. They were complicated, increased costs, and still performed poorly. It was when someone decided to separate the track end from the frame that we got the benefits of exotic frame materials, while allowing them to be merged with the best dropout material. It was the yes answer to all of the above mentioned questions, and that is why they are the best.

Maybe instead of a track adapter (been done numerous times, most are the same, all have compromises because they don't stray from the current design trend), focus on a no compromise approach. Permanent solutions to everyday pieces of equipment. Those British strap adapters were the track pedal equivalent of the BT dropout. Someone figured out a simple, stable set up that put the strap(s) in the right place on the foot. It lessened foot movement in the shoe, attached the shoe to the pedal in two ways, while also boosting the clipless mechanism's function (of you look at the design, it actually closes the pedal clasp to keep it from opening). The only downside, as carleton mentioned, was that the user had to modify the pedal, which isn't in everyone's best interest/ability. For the Brits it was perfect as they had people for that, so it was an "all yes" solution for them.

Also think outside of the product box. Remember how I said not everyone is capable of doing certain modifications to their equipment? Do the modifications for them, or offer modified versions of popular stock equipment. I still use SPD-R pedals with straps because I feel that there isn't a pedal available that offers that same level of retention. The only "track" pedals out there that integrate straps puts the straps in the wrong spot on the shoe, and does nothing for the clasp mechanism. It's no better than what's out there, and is different for the sake of being exclusive. If I could buy an modern Shimano pedal with the Brit adapter already attached...SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now go bake a cake.
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Old 01-07-17, 02:37 AM
  #14  
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This is the only pedal I'm aware of (other than trad clips and straps {yes, I'm still using them]) that puts a strap in the right spot, ala the British home-brew strap holders:

VP-R73T @uo-qVRs@gbN y_

Anybody used these? I'm vaguely (softly?) considering purchasing them if I can find someone with some experience on them. Specifically wondering how robust the plastic holder for the rearward strap (the only one that matters) is.

Also, I agree with the OP that the Ergostem is not as stiff as a normal one. Been using one for years now only kilo set-up since I can't find a normal stem that gets the same position. Definitely more flex than a regular stem, in my experience.
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Old 01-07-17, 03:24 AM
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That VP pedal is news to me. When did that come out? I was only aware of the exustar version that has the straps straddling the axle.

Last edited by taras0000; 01-07-17 at 03:30 AM.
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Old 01-07-17, 04:04 AM
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Originally Posted by taras0000 View Post
That VP pedal is news to me. When did that come out? I was only aware of the exustar version that has the straps straddling the axle.
I vaguely remember seeing this pedal in photos from Interbike in like 2011 or 2012. I've never seen a set in person nor have I ever seen a set in photos used by anyone.

Searches show them in online stores for several shops. Not sure why they didn't take off.
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Old 01-07-17, 01:32 PM
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I have two sets of them that I use on my bikes, and have a few friends that use them, too. I switched to them from my exustar pedals, and I'll never look back on that decision. I've recommended them to everybody who has asked me about pedals for track. They can be run with double straps, but a single is really all you need.

My buddy hit a dog while practicing sprints on a quiet back road with them. He snapped his alpina track fork in half, but his feet didn't unclip.
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Old 01-07-17, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by MarkWW View Post
My buddy hit a dog while practicing sprints on a quiet back road with them. He snapped his alpina track fork in half, but his feet didn't unclip.
Sold!
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Old 01-08-17, 12:11 AM
  #19  
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Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
Also, I agree with the OP that the Ergostem is not as stiff as a normal one. Been using one for years now only kilo set-up since I can't find a normal stem that gets the same position. Definitely more flex than a regular stem, in my experience.
If your position is already dialed in, why not get a custom stem made?
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Old 01-08-17, 12:18 AM
  #20  
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Originally Posted by taras0000 View Post
Sold!
Year, these seem pretty legit. Though do they use a proprietary cleat? The ones I see see to be two piece, so that you can replace whichever half wears quickly. Compatible with SPD-SL or LOOK?
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Old 01-08-17, 12:19 AM
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Originally Posted by taras0000 View Post
If your position is already dialed in, why not get a custom stem made?
Probably too much difficulty convincing wife of cost/benefit... She's a tough one!
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Old 01-08-17, 02:32 AM
  #22  
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The list id older, but most of these guys are still around.
- Technical FAQ with Lennard Zinn: Where to buy custom stems | VeloNews.com

There is also Sam Wittingham of Naked cycles. Not sure if he still does stems, I know he stopped doing custom aero bars a few years back.
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Old 01-09-17, 12:35 PM
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Thank you for all your help.
I will talk to Ditobici about the dropout.

Taras
And I love how you explained about the problem

I will tell you guys about the result.
I just hope BT or Perkins is fine with Ditobici making the dropout.
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Old 01-09-17, 01:57 PM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by MarkWW View Post
I have two sets of them that I use on my bikes, and have a few friends that use them, too. I switched to them from my exustar pedals, and I'll never look back on that decision. I've recommended them to everybody who has asked me about pedals for track. They can be run with double straps, but a single is really all you need.

My buddy hit a dog while practicing sprints on a quiet back road with them. He snapped his alpina track fork in half, but his feet didn't unclip.




I use the DIY fix found on UP!UP!UP! to put a single strap on my Shimano SPD road pedal using quick ties. My feet were still clipped in even after my big crash that broke most of me. In view of the performance I received from that I have just been too lazy to actually screw something into the pedal. It may not be pretty, but it is functional at an exceptional price!
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Old 01-09-17, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by rensho3 View Post
I use the DIY fix found on UP!UP!UP! to put a single strap on my Shimano SPD road pedal using quick ties. My feet were still clipped in even after my big crash that broke most of me. In view of the performance I received from that I have just been too lazy to actually screw something into the pedal. It may not be pretty, but it is functional at an exceptional price!
Yeah, that's what I used. And why I kept old alloy Dura Ace and Ultegra pedals that had the lip where I could loop the zip tie.

It worked very well for years. They even worked when one of the two zip ties broke (from age) and I didn't even notice because the pedal bears all of the load. The zip ties simply hold it in place when there is no tension.
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