ph0rk

Sure, but I don't see that big a price gap between bikes in the two categories. Nor between "race" road bikes and endurance road bikes for that matter, save for oddities that clearly cost some money like adding suspension to the frame. Sure if you compare models across brands things get weird, but that's true for the same category of bike, too.

There are drop-bar disc brake gravel bikes at $500 on up. If I wanted to, I could cherry pick examples to make gravel bikes look cheaper than road bikes.

fietsbob

Because you like fancy stuff to impress your mates , they assume..

You really don't Need to ride a special bike just because the Pavement ended..

rgconner

If you do it by price point, say $2200, then you look at the specs for the $2200 Specialized Roubaix and the $2100 Diverge Comp you get 105 11 speed vs Tiagra 10 speed.

Seems a good deal for $100 more.

Throw in the Steel AWOL comp and the difference is even more clear: 1x, and you get steel vs carbon. Ride quality aside, there is no way the steel frame should be as much as a carbon frame so the extra for a true "gravel" bike is pretty significant compared to the Roubaix

Facanh

Steel is a niche material nowadays, i'm sure they produced less of the AWOL than the Roubaix. If you look around, steel framesets can cost as much as carbon ones. Not just gravel, MTB, road too.

They can also ask more for steel because why not, steel is real etc.

Also I think the AWOL Comp is kind of a niche bike in itself (not saying it's bad or anything, I would love one), not a "traditional gravel bike".

rgconner

AWOL is definitely a traditional gravel bike. More so than the Diverge with it's super low bottom bracket.
And mass produced steel frames are cheap. Most are under $1000, the AWOL frame+fork combo is $1050.

Custom steel vs carbon? Sure, there is a price comparison, but that is about it.

Facanh

I'm not sure. Super long chainstays, long top tube with a short stem, high stack. Comes with basically 29er tyres. And with different components it's sold as a tourer called AWOL Expert.

But i'm not even sure if there is a definition for a "traditional gravel bike". But to me it would be road-ish geometry with 38-42 tyres.

Not talking about custom steel. I know, mass produced steel frames could be cheap to make, but they certainly aren't cheap to buy for us customers. Unless you're talking about super low end stuff. Most manufacturers will always have a mark up on steel because of the niche factor. Or in a lot of cases if you look for steel frames the brand itself is smaller hence more expensive from the start.
1050 for a sort of mass produced cromo frame and fork is too much IMO, but that's pretty standard sadly. I don't see many decent steel gravel, road MTB framesets below that. (Obviously most MTB frames are a cheaper but they're usually just a frame not a frameset with a fork)
Unless you look at super high end stuff, or something even more niche you could certainly go carbon for that amount of $ or alu + carbon for much less money.

I'm not talking crap about steel (my main bike is steel) but decent steel stuff is always a bit overpriced in every category, not just gravel.

mstateglfr 

black mountain frameset seems to be an exception to this.
I got mine for $525. They are about $600 now.

OS double butted .8/.5/.8 tubing - check
heat treated - check
ed rust inhibitor layer - check
wet painted - check
killer fork crown and plenty of attachment points - check

its a shame the niche market has to charge so much. But people need to make $ tfor all this to be worth the time.

rgconner

It is not the only one out there, although I love my MCD.

Twin Six Rando is $600 frame and fork.

I am sure there are more, Ritchey makes one for $1350, but it has a carbon fork... and it is a Ritchey...

mstateglfr 

The T6 frame is something ive read about but dont really think about often(if ever). Not sure why exactly, perhaps it isnt pushed hard. I think it may be because there isnt much info on the frame tubing. Its advertised as standard T6 4130. I would guess its butted. Is it heat treated? Whats the tubing dimension- 1/.9/1 or .7/.4/.7?
Details like that are kinda important.

Dont love the unicrown fork or QR dropouts on the T6. But I do like how little the top tube slopes as its aesthetically really nice.

Facanh

There are always a few exceptions, Black Mountain stuff looks nice.
The Twin Six looks okay, I would also like to see some more specs. Thru axles should be standard on everything by now, a tapered headtube would be nice for aftermarket carbon fork options, and I don't get the PF30 BB shell. The chainstays are not short, the max tyre clearance is not big, not sure what was the point of a wider BB shell. Yes I know it's bigger in diameter too so the usual stiffness is EVERYTHING applies, but it's a steel frame and fork...

But both options are out of the question for me because i'm in Europe.

rgconner

Mike will ship you a frame!

Not sure if it is economically sensible, but he drop shipped some frames right from the factory.

Facanh

If it's coming from anywhere outside of the European Union I would have to pay import taxes and VAT on top of the shipping costs. Some small stuff (like the TRP Spyres I got directly from Taiwan for super cheap) can slip through but a frame definitely won't.

Anyways, thanks for the tips but I don't think i'm in the market for a gravel frame anymore, my next bike is probably going to be a maximum bang for buck complete alu hardtail from a direct to consumer brand. My plan was to build an All City Gorilla Monsoon and transfer most of the bits from my current gravel bike, but for the price of the AC frame, 27.5 wheelset, tyres, and crankset I can buy a sweet complete hardtail.

Koyote

There is no "rest." It's all supply (cost) and demand (consumer willingness-to-pay).

fishboat

We'll agree to disagree..ask someone that's spent a career in marketing. Obviously, no sane marketeer would ever price below cost(except in a specific short-term campaigns to buy market share), but on the upside there's no relationship..zero. Possibly google "value pricing". The concept of price = "cost plus X% margin" is just that..a concept. There are minimal (internal) margins that exist as guidelines to whether a particular product is profitable enough to carry in a product line, but that minimal margin won't be the selling price, unless selling into a commodity market. Your mileage, and net profit, may vary..

Koyote

"ask someone that's spent a career in marketing"
Why would I do that? The marketers generally don't set the prices, and they also generally don't understand much about the cost side. Their job is to market things.

"but on the upside there's no relationship..zero.
The relationship between cost and price determines the profit margin. And if you believe that profit margin is irrelevant, then you fail to understand market capitalism. And common sense.

"The concept of price = "cost plus X% margin" is just that..a concept."
Yes, it's a concept...For a reason. In fact, in some industries, this is precisely how price is determined. And in every firm, price must equal cost+margin (with margin >0) in the long run, or the firm will go out of business.

To the matter at hand: bikes with more costly frames and components sell for more money. This is obvious to anyone who has even casually perused the market. Ceteris paribus, higher grades of steel frames (Reynolds 853) sell for more than lower grades (4130). Ceteris paribus, bikes with Dura Ace components are priced higher than bikes with Tiagra components. I could cite examples all day, but why do that? It's obvious.

Duh.

fishboat

You sound quite young..and lacking an education in business.. you'll need to find someone else to argue with..

rgconner

Pretty sure you are a victim of the Dunning-Kruger Effect

Koyote

Oh, god, if only you knew...

By the way, the ad hominem fallacy is almost always used by someone who can't actually make a rational argument.

chas58

Apples to apples, they aren't much different. You do pay a little premium because they are the current fad. They also have the "latest" equipment on them, so they can "justify" the price. Thinks like disk brakes, or large gear ratios with 11 speed. You can get a good road bike with standard brakes and 9 speed that works great and doesn't cost too much.

Bicycling.com recently did some articles on a nashbar bike and Lynskey bike that are reasonably priced (well, the latter is titanium) generic builds. I hear ya though. I was shopping for a CX bike a couple of years ago, and nothing on the used list was under $800. So I bought a similar road bike for $250. Bikes direct has some killer deals too.

Unfortnately, true.

mstateglfr 

1- latin? Come on- show your knowledge a better way- its a message board about bikes.
2- the other poster wasnt saying, or even suggesting, that bikes with higher priced components shouldnt/dont cost more. It's justifiable to price those bikes higher for sure.


the point being made that you are arguing(wrongly) against is that the relationship between higher costing bikes and retail price often is not a 1=1 relationship.
a bike that costs $200 more to build may sell for $600 more, for example.
there is not a direct relationship between cost and price.

Goods sell for way more than a fixed % of cost all the time. Typically, the higher level a product is within a product line, the lower the % of cost.
This is due to the effect of luxury and exclusivity.

jeans that cost $8 to make sell for $15 and also sell for $150. Just depends on each brand's story and exclusivity.

Koyote

You should really read posts carefully before responding. And by the way, "ceteris paribus" means "all other things equal."

mstateglfr 

I'm aware of the translation. No need to be snooty with the in quote comment. My point was thst its a message board about bike- using Latin is a forced effort when arguing in a forum like this.

and yes in get that the other posternsaid there is no relationship between price and cost. I took that to mean price is not directly reflective of cost and that since the relationship between the two is so far from being a 1=1, its effectively non-existant.
in other words, I didnt take the comment literally.

i read the thread closely.
pretty sure I'm out at this point as i too dont see this being productive.