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Well, I guess I don't

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Well, I guess I don't

Old 06-20-19, 10:51 PM
  #26  
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Like many of the car manufacturers (eg. VW), they withhold access to their software (and error codes) from non-OEM mechanics for about 5 years and then lease it out for profit. This is firmly entrenched in digital industries.

Edit. Of course if you're going to do that, you'd better have a substantial, strong network of OEM service peoples to fix faulty product..

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Old 06-20-19, 11:04 PM
  #27  
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My bicycles tend to communicate the error codes via mechanical noises and, if the error is severe enough, tactile feedback. The flat tire alarm could be a lot more subtle.
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Old 06-21-19, 07:33 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by non-fixie View Post
Today a coworker came up to me:

Coworker: "I've heard you know a thing or two about bicycles"
Me: "Well, I guess I do"
Coworker: "What does error code 16 mean?"
Me: "......."

Yet another sign the apocalypse is close upon us.......(as a favorite auto enthusiast periodical publication used to have each month.)

Bill
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Old 06-21-19, 07:36 AM
  #29  
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Error code 16? Get the crash cart.
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Old 06-21-19, 07:49 AM
  #30  
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Error Code 16 = "pedal"
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Old 06-21-19, 09:35 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by squirtdad View Post
on the path to A&S forum discussion here
Originally Posted by -holiday76 View Post
all im sayin' is "dont be ignant". A PAS system where you have to pedal to move, but the assist makes you pedal like superman is not a moped. But whatever. Error Code 'who cares'.
attempt at humor.....A&S is all over the definitions. I agree that pedal assist is a different beast that anything that you don't have to pedal. And if I ever get where the choice is riding or riding on a pedal assist (which i hope is never....but you never know) i would choose to ride.
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Old 06-21-19, 09:51 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by squirtdad View Post
attempt at humor.....A&S is all over the definitions. I agree that pedal assist is a different beast that anything that you don't have to pedal. And if I ever get where the choice is riding or riding on a pedal assist (which i hope is never....but you never know) i would choose to ride.
Pedal assist helping me make my 150 pound cargo bike go 30 mph while pedaling at "Regular exertion level" was pretty darn cool! Being against/ignorant towards technology just because it's new is pretty stupid . IMO (not saying you're doing this Squirtdad).
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Old 06-21-19, 10:43 AM
  #33  
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I'm not against new technology and I understand how pedal assist works. What I am against is defining an e-bike as a bicycle. When you add a motor, it fundamentally changes the concept. It doesn't matter what fantastic new tech is governing the application of power from the motor. The fact is that there is a motor, a second source of power that is not the human riding it. This is not even remotely equivalent to other advances in bicycle technology, such as: tension spokes, pneumatic tires, derailleur gears, hollow steel tubes, etc.

Also, many e-bikes are not pedal assist, but operate like traditional mopeds or motorized bicycles.

Here in LA, e-bikes are often used on bike and multi use paths, to circumvent traffic. I consider this an abuse and I am against that. Motor + pedals = moped. E-bikes may be a great improvement for the general population's simply getting around. They are certainly more environmentally friendly than cars. I'm not against them, only think bicycles should be considered a separate category.
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Old 06-21-19, 11:49 AM
  #34  
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"I guess you don't! I guess you don't!"
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Old 06-21-19, 12:07 PM
  #35  
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And to think I was angry with my washing machine stupid error codes... now on bicycles?
Oh wait, it wasn't a bicycle!
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Old 06-21-19, 12:17 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by Salamandrine View Post
I'm not against new technology and I understand how pedal assist works. What I am against is defining an e-bike as a bicycle. When you add a motor, it fundamentally changes the concept. It doesn't matter what fantastic new tech is governing the application of power from the motor. The fact is that there is a motor, a second source of power that is not the human riding it. This is not even remotely equivalent to other advances in bicycle technology, such as: tension spokes, pneumatic tires, derailleur gears, hollow steel tubes, etc.

Also, many e-bikes are not pedal assist, but operate like traditional mopeds or motorized bicycles.

Here in LA, e-bikes are often used on bike and multi use paths, to circumvent traffic. I consider this an abuse and I am against that. Motor + pedals = moped. E-bikes may be a great improvement for the general population's simply getting around. They are certainly more environmentally friendly than cars. I'm not against them, only think bicycles should be considered a separate category.
I agree with differentiating between bikes and e-bikes. But I'll readily admit it is solely because I want to keep being able to say I know a thing or two about bikes ....

I mean, after all, electric trains are not real trains either, are they?
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Old 06-21-19, 12:44 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by non-fixie View Post
I agree with differentiating between bikes and e-bikes. But I'll readily admit it is solely because I want to keep being able to say I know a thing or two about bikes ....

I mean, after all, electric trains are not real trains either, are they?
well there were steam engines, (wood fired, coal fired and then converted coal to oil and oil fired), and now mostly diesel electric, and of course electric like subway trains and electric like trolley with the poles on the wires over heads

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Old 06-21-19, 12:57 PM
  #38  
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fwiw,

I think the classification should look some thing like this

pedal assist: needs to be pedaled to start, needs to be pedaled to get assist, no throttle (just assist level) assist is speed limited to 18 mph or so. This would fit needs of people who are carrying more stuff, out of shape, infirm etc.

any thing else whether it has pedals or not that can start without pedaling, go faster that 18 mph, has a throttle is a motorized vehicle and should require licensing, insurance, etc...... of course that does not cover things like gyro stablized single wheel electric skateboards and other vehicles

I will say the guy on the huge fat tire, e-bike bombing down the mup I use, and acting like he has priority is a pain

I can say
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Old 06-21-19, 01:41 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by squirtdad View Post


I will say the guy on the huge fat tire, e-bike bombing down the mup I use, and acting like he has priority is a pain


Well, he does have priority of course because he's a riding a motorized vehicle like a grown-up (even if he's on a MUP where he's not supposed to be) and you're pedaling a kid's toy that doesn't go very fast.


Remember, a lot of e-bike users have never ever ridden bicycles as adults and haven't paid their dues as muscle-powered road users. They're not transitioning from bicycles because of age/infirmity, they're transitioning from motor vehicles because they've lost their driver's licenses for impaired driving convictions, or it's just another motorized toy to play with until the novelty wears off. (Of course I have no evidence for any of this: this is the Internet for Heaven's sake.)

I see the Greens getting all splinter-factionalized about this -- some want to lump e-bikes in with bicycles because neither are "cars" and both get people out of them; some see e-bikers as arriviste interlopers who make cycling less enjoyable because of high-speed competition in our space at the right edge of the road or on MUPs. (And be aware that walkers rightly see many of us as interlopers who make walking less enjoyable on their sidewalks and hiking trails.)

The nice thing about winter here is that it has done the same to e-bikes that it did to gas-powered mopeds in the 1970s: very few survive their first winter. By this I don't mean that winter destroys them, just that because no-one rides them through the winter, they finish life at garage sales in spring. (Someone once said the life of a Huffy, from Wal-Mart to dumpster, was 75 miles. E-bikes about the same I bet.)

/Rant off. Thanks, I needed that. -> ->
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Old 06-21-19, 01:41 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by non-fixie View Post
"What does error code 16 mean?"
It means if she says she's 18, ask for ID.
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Old 06-21-19, 01:43 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by conspiratemus1 View Post
Well, he does have priority of course because he's a riding a motorized vehicle like a grown-up (even if he's on a MUP where he's not supposed to be) and you're pedaling a kid's toy that doesn't go very fast.

Remember, a lot of e-bike users have never ever ridden bicycles as adults and haven't paid their dues as muscle-powered road users. They're not transitioning from bicycles because of age/infirmity, they're transitioning from motor vehicles because they've lost their driver's licenses for impaired driving convictions, or it's just another motorized toy to play with until the novelty wears off. (Of course I have no evidence for any of this: this is the Internet for Heaven's sake.)

I see the Greens getting all splinter-factionalized about this -- some want to lump e-bikes in with bicycles because neither are "cars" and both get people out of them; some see e-bikers as arriviste interlopers who make cycling less enjoyable because of high-speed competition in our space at the right edge of the road or on MUPs. (And be aware that walkers rightly see many of us as interlopers who make walking less enjoyable on their sidewalks and hiking trails.)

The nice thing about winter here is that it has done the same to e-bikes that it did to gas-powered mopeds in the 1970s: very few survive their first winter. By this I don't mean that winter destroys them, just that because no-one rides them through the winter, they finish life at garage sales in spring. (Someone once said the life of a Huffy, from Wal-Mart to dumpster, was 75 miles. E-bikes about the same I bet.)

/Rant off. Thanks, I needed that. -> ->
Best thing about MUPs?

Yoga pants.
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Old 06-21-19, 02:25 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by RobbieTunes View Post
Best thing about MUPs?

Yoga pants.
And in-line skaters wearing them.
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Old 06-21-19, 02:26 PM
  #43  
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Worst thing about MUPs?

In some instances - Yoga pants.

Here, it's illegal to use a motor on any vehicle on an MUP. The vehicle can have a motor, but you have to operate it on human power. Power/"fuel" source, drive/assist type, etc. are all irrelvant. Exception is mobility assistance for someone with a disability, but you'd better have documentation of such. And those electric skateboards, electrified Razor-type scooters, all those annoyances, are all classified as "motorized toys", and are illegal on streets and MUPs. But they're taking over like dandelions.

The electric train / "real" train analogy would be meaningful if "real" trains were human-powered. Or if a diesel-powered bicycle could be considered a "real" bicycle. Otherwise, it's nonsense.
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Old 06-21-19, 03:00 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by RobbieTunes View Post
Best thing about MUPs?

Yoga pants.
Originally Posted by conspiratemus1 View Post
And in-line skaters wearing them.
depends on the person wearing them
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Old 06-21-19, 03:46 PM
  #45  
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Methinks half of you guys have either A. Never tried a pedal-assisted e-bike before, or B. Are curmudgeonly set in your old road bike ways to accept that pedal-assisted e-bikes are tools that can help make bicycle commuting more accessible for many people.

For the most part, we're missing the infra to make it happen effectively here in the U.S., but that doesn't negate the potential practicality. No need to hate on it because it's new (but every right to hate on it when it's a POS like this VanMoof that provides more error codes to its user than electric assist).

Originally Posted by non-fixie View Post
I agree with differentiating between bikes and e-bikes.
You just did

Technically, the pedal assist variety are "pedelecs."

Originally Posted by Salamandrine View Post
Also, many e-bikes are not pedal assist, but operate like traditional mopeds or motorized bicycles.
Define "many." Thanks to Jump and Lime's dockless equipment, there are probably more pedelec e-bikes in existence right now than throttle-controlled. All of the Bosch-powered models are pedelecs from factory.

Originally Posted by mechanicmatt View Post
Error Code 16 = "pedal"
I'm intrigued, @mechanicmatt. Source? Any other info?

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Old 06-21-19, 04:02 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by madpogue View Post
(...) The electric train / "real" train analogy would be meaningful if "real" trains were human-powered. Or if a diesel-powered bicycle could be considered a "real" bicycle. Otherwise, it's nonsense.
Whether it is nonsense or not is for y'all to decide. I made the remark for some additional perspective and, quite frankly, because I find it difficult to make up my mind about e-bikes.

On one hand the concept seems sympathetic: no exhaust gasses, easier for people with limited abilities, enabling longer commutes. On the other hand: what I'm seeing here, in real life, is that they do not replace cars but bicycles and the occasional moped. They are mainly bought by the general public, people who were riding 'normal' bicycles to school and to work before, and are glad they don't have to pedal that hard anymore. It's a luxury item that's quickly becoming the new normal.

To give you some data points, these are the Dutch stats from 2018:

Total population: 17 million
Total bicycle sales: 1,01 million
E-bike sales: 409,400 (up from 294.000 in 2017)
'Normal' bike sales: 495.390 (down from 545.490 in 2017)

So, less people are pedaling and the electricity has got to come from somewhere, so I'm not entirely convinced yet things are getting greener and healthier overall, at least not where I live.
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Old 06-21-19, 04:28 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by non-fixie View Post
Whether it is nonsense or not is for y'all to decide. I made the remark for some additional perspective and, quite frankly, because I find it difficult to make up my mind about e-bikes.

On one hand the concept seems sympathetic: no exhaust gasses, easier for people with limited abilities, enabling longer commutes. On the other hand: what I'm seeing here, in real life, is that they do not replace cars but bicycles and the occasional moped. They are mainly bought by the general public, people who were riding 'normal' bicycles to school and to work before, and are glad they don't have to pedal that hard anymore. It's a luxury item that's quickly becoming the new normal.

To give you some data points, these are the Dutch stats from 2018:

Total population: 17 million
Total bicycle sales: 1,01 million
E-bike sales: 409,400 (up from 294.000 in 2017)
'Normal' bike sales: 495.390 (down from 545.490 in 2017)

So, less people are pedaling and the electricity has got to come from somewhere, so I'm not entirely convinced yet things are getting greener and healthier overall, at least not where I live.
really interesting, I recall reading something that suggested that e-bikes were getting big in the Netherlands....... I would guess that it is because as i understand it bike usage is generally looked at as practical transportation and an e-bike enhances that usage
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Old 06-21-19, 05:03 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by non-fixie View Post
Whether it is nonsense or not is for y'all to decide. I made the remark for some additional perspective and, quite frankly, because I find it difficult to make up my mind about e-bikes.

On one hand the concept seems sympathetic: no exhaust gasses, easier for people with limited abilities, enabling longer commutes. On the other hand: what I'm seeing here, in real life, is that they do not replace cars but bicycles and the occasional moped. They are mainly bought by the general public, people who were riding 'normal' bicycles to school and to work before, and are glad they don't have to pedal that hard anymore. It's a luxury item that's quickly becoming the new normal.

To give you some data points, these are the Dutch stats from 2018:

Total population: 17 million
Total bicycle sales: 1,01 million
E-bike sales: 409,400 (up from 294.000 in 2017)
'Normal' bike sales: 495.390 (down from 545.490 in 2017)

So, less people are pedaling and the electricity has got to come from somewhere, so I'm not entirely convinced yet things are getting greener and healthier overall, at least not where I live.
In Alberta, Saskatchewan, Nova Scotia, and New Brunswick the electricity comes from coal....and will for a long, long time. In my province (Ontario), coal electricity is gone but it is costing a lot to refurbish the nuclear power plants which, with water (you know, Niagara Falls and all that), pretty much run the province now.

You know that the earliest trains were indeed human- or horse- powered. Coal mines had small rail-ways underground. Miners loaded coal into small ore cars which men or specially bred small pit-ponies hauled to the elevators by which the coal was brought to the surface. This latter operation was mechanized by steam power long before there was a way to mechanize the trip from the coal face to the pit shaft. And don't forget the horse-drawn street cars in every large city. I don't think anyone would want to go back to those good old days of brawn and sweat (and horse excreta.)
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Old 06-21-19, 05:07 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by onre View Post
My bicycles tend to communicate the error codes via mechanical noises and, if the error is severe enough, tactile feedback. The flat tire alarm could be a lot more subtle.
+1 Tactile feedback...
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Old 06-21-19, 07:49 PM
  #50  
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I want to build a pedal assist bike with a 2 stroke motor, just to push the point that pedal assist IS motorized.

It'd be rather easy to build, something that drags on the BB spindle pulls the throttle cable and makes the engine go BRAAPPPP!!!! One of the cheapo chainsaw motors with a centrifugal clutch on a rack on the back of the bike with a couple of gear reductions which ends up pulling on the largest cog on the back of the mountain bike could be put together in a couple evenings in the laboratory...
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