Reynolds 

The problem with bike lanes are the crossings IMO.

Seattle Forrest

Whatever. I spent last weekend doing volunteer trail maintenance on the PCT. It cost me $200. I'm allowed to comment on the utility of bike lanes.

Jim from Boston

“I don't think I like physically separated bike lanes.”

As a decades-long urban commuter and road cyclist, on a societal policy basis, I was impressed by this opinion by @B. Carfree

Iride01 

Physically separate as in the extra wide sidewalks? I hate them too. We have a few here and I used one of them once. It's really dangerous IMO. It just multiplys several times the things you have to be aware of when you cross an intersection and even a driveway.

They are working on one to my neighborhood right now to connect to the main trail. I wish I'd been aware of when the public comment was open for it. One side of the street only has one little used back access to a maintenance office for the Natchez Trace Parkway. The other side has two streets, three entrance/exits for a busy shopping center and four driveways for homes coming off of it. So guess which side they built it on. Yep, the side with all the driveways and streets! I doubt I ever ride on it.

For the extra right-of-way they had to take, they could have made the street six to eight feet wider on each side. In many cases I feel much safer in the road than on a separate path paralleling the road.

KraneXL

First, the physical separations are safer. And second, everything goes to the sidewalk or the area between the two.

daoswald

I'm also not a fan of physically separate bike lanes.

• They're like riding on the sidewalk:
  • Vehicle drivers never expect to interact with you, so as vehicles enter or leave the roadway via driveways or cross streets they often don't even notice the cyclist in one of these separated lanes. You are not part of their world, until you suddenly are.
  • People may be walking on them.
• Manhole covers and other maintenance equipment get placed inside them and they're narrow enough that it's hard to dodge these obstacles. Because it's not the main road, workers tend to accept a lower standard of smoothness.
• If there is some construction on the road, these are the first parts of the road to get blocked.
• They can fill with debris and street sweeping vehicles don't fit to clear it.
• Occupants often have no expectation of maintaining a traffic-like flow, so other users become obstacles too.

On the real road vehicle drivers do have to interact with you; you're part of their world. You are less invisible to them, so they're less likely to turn suddenly or pull out suddenly in front of you.

People are less likely to be ambling along in herds in front of you.

Other users do have an expectation of riding/driving in road-like conditions, so they behave predictably and are less likely to become complacent obstacles.

Now I really hate being forced into a lane to the point that vehicles can't safely pass me. That's a recipe for impatient hostility. But I do prefer being on the road where I'm part of the flow.

banerjek

I don't like riding physically separated lanes for reasons others have articulated, but the problem Carfree identifies is what I see the more serious one.

Instead of helping people see what's great about cycling and how to manage all the situations they'll encounter, their game plan for getting more people riding is essentially to make them terrified of virtually everyone they'll encounter.

They succeed in the terror thing so well that they're afraid of riding in garden variety situations themselves. You should see our local cycling boards and how much meldodrama they can make out of the most ordinary encounters. And then they wonder why everyone else doesn't jump on the bandwagon.

Kimmo 

Wait till these bozos get a whiff of mandatory helmets...

KraneXL

Those explanations to counter PSBP, are a stretch. Nevertheless, you can always take an alternate route since they're outnumbered 100 to 1 by roads without them

bruce19

I think the US needs them but I won't like them until we learn to use them. There are a lot of people who are unsafe. I also like the idea that bicycles are a part of traffic. I am comfortable in traffic.

poonkorama

I like the regular painted bike lanes just because it provides a visible line of demarcation. Whether cars respect these is a different issue, but I generally prefer these to nothing at all.

I'm not crazy about the new separated lanes we’ve been getting in Oakland (CA), which go between the parked cars and the sidewalk. In theory, they seem great, but as someone already pointed out, if the lane gets blocked, it can be very difficult to circumvent. The first time I rode one of these (Telegraph Ave), the lane was blocked by a group of several people hanging out next to their car who were reluctant to move (their dirty looks confirmed this). Half block later, another car managed to park *in* the lane, completely blocking it. The only way around was to stop and hop on the sidewalk, as the parked cars were too tightly spaced to allow a swerve onto the street. Again, not a bad theoretical concept, but I think some of the unintended consequences weren’t throughly visualized.

Completely separate bikeways (separated by concrete curbs) are awesome IMO (Stockholm does this well). But incorporating this type of system requires more significant changes to local infrastructure.

KraneXL

Now think about what the motorist likes. Are you encroaching onto "his" roads to his favor?

People frequently drive onto crosswalks, road shoulders, BUS/BIKE ONLY lanes and even sidewalks to move forward. Do you think they would hesitate to drive onto a bike lake if its in their favor? They'll see you coming and still rapid pull out in front of you. Scaring the chamois off you.

colnago62

For those of you who ride the stretch of West Marginal from the 1st ave S. Bridge to the West Seattle bridge, I notice some ghost lines on the pavement like they are preparing to narrow that stretch of road down to slow the traffic using bike lanes. I think the speed limit is 35 with most drivers well over that.

Seattle Forrest

@colnago62 they upgraded Dexter since the last time I rode, don't take it going south. Bike lane between the sidewalk and a line of parked cars, as you come down the hill, and tons of people standing around smoking cigarettes.

zacster

Physically separated on-street lanes are great until you get to the intersections, then they are far more dangerous than just riding in the street. This is especially true when the separation is a parking lane, because then you become invisible.

In NYC they repaved 1st and 2nd Avenues, both have parked car separated lanes. On 1st Avenue they changed the left turns from a left turning lane at the end of the parked cars, to one where the car should proceed to the intersection in the driving lane and then turn 90 degrees. Guess what happens? They turn perpendicular to the bikes and just go through. At least while they were parallel you could go around on the right side (of a left turning car), plus they are parallel to the bikes where they can see them. Its a disaster waiting to happen. This new idea is supposed to be an improvement but I don't think anybody really thought this out, or really rides a bike either.

jpescatore

The problem with many roads is they are not designed well or they are designed well but then they are built and then not maintained well. That is an even bigger problem with some bike trails and many physically separated bike lanes.

But, boy - when a bike trail or physically separate bike lane is designed well and maintained well, it is such a different riding experience than having traffic whizzing by your left ear all day (US-centric).

So, just like choosing to avoid some roads when I drive, have to do the same with bike lanes and trails when I bike.

And, I will admit: I do usually stop to move a turtle from the road but almost never stop to move the shopping cart from the path...

KraneXL

Maybe the city planners need a suggestion box?

redlude97

Where is the car parking in your pic? In your scenario you're just trading pedestrians for riding in the door zone when parking is to your right

DOS

I was using that pic only to illustrate the painted hash area on the left side. I find when they do that, and leave car parking against the curb (I couldn't find a pic to illustrate), I can ride on far left of the bike lane to stay well clear of the door issue yet still have buffer between car and traffic. Riding on lanes pinned between cars and curb, which around here are often very narrow, leave me vulnerable to passenger doors. pedestrians stepping into the lane, delivery trucks, and all manner of debris. Plus I cant see what traffic is doing, and drivers cant see me, so when the lane emerges at intersections I am blind and invisible til the last minute. Not a good combination.

redlude97

Well you gotta compare apples to apples. If the protected bike lane is as wide as the one you have pictured and to the right of parked cars those sightline issues and pedestrian concerns become less of an issue. Sounds like the real problem is narrow bike lanes which are troublesome on either side of parked cars

LAJ

That's it. All separated bike lines did in Boulder was piss off the motoring public. Taking away a lane in a busy through-way did nothing for our cause. For such a "bike friendly" place, there sure are a lot of angry motorists, and this didn't help.

DOS

That is true, narrow outside lanes are not good for the door issue you mentioned, which is why I prefer to ride in the road proper. My point was that the strategy to create separation from traffic that employs hashes rather than barriers of some kind is preferable because the barriers themselves become hazards. Wider lanes would be better, but even with wider inside lanes (which dont exist imn my area), parked cars are as tall as bike riders so you can't be seen or see over the tap. And you are pinned between barriers on both sides -- parked cars on one, curb on the other -- so options to avoid trouble are more limited.

redlude97

At least around here, without barriers in urban areas the bike lanes just become de facto lyft/uber/ups parking. We can argue about left or ride side but protected bike lanes provide added benefit and protection that increases use by riders who are less comfortable mixing it up with traffic. They aren't really meant for the avg roadie

bikecrate

They just installed some in our downtown over the last year sometimes displacing the perfectly good bike lane. I dislike them. Even though it says bikes only...guess what...they become loading zones for trucks, pedestrians walk in them and cars still have to cross through them. It is okay, I suppose, for the slow going cruiser crowd, but I think they are a step back.

UniChris

Ironic, because cycling groups have been congratulating themselves on creating exactly that situation by extending the line of flexiposts with other objects right up to the intersection as guerrilla demonstration in places where the city hasn't.

There are arguments both ways, but yes, the more "installed" infrastructure tends to favor timid riding at the expense of what was working for existing vehicular type cyclists. The heavy infrastructure approach seems to be one of ride in a slow relaxed fashion between intersections (worrying mostly about pedestrian goofs and doors) and then exercise hyper vigilance at the crossings, vs the more traditional approach of interacting with the cars as if you were one.

It seems like incumbent cycling politics in NYC is in favor of everything that seems to favor bikes, even where it is maybe not the best idea in practice, or in other cases a sort of cycling behavior that should be allied with or defended.