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Robots in your bike lane, coming soon

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Robots in your bike lane, coming soon

Old 07-18-19, 12:04 PM
  #76  
I-Like-To-Bike
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Originally Posted by UniChris
It's what they are obligated to. Also most intersections in the city itself have traffic lights or stop signs, so there are relatively few situations where you encounter an uncontrolled crossing.
Are you implying that motorists who are driving though an intersection on a through street (without a stop or yield-to-pedestrian sign controlling their movement) are obligated, let alone likely, to come to a halt to let pedestrians who might want to cross from the pavement or sidewalk parallel to the side street where the motorists and cyclists' movements are controlled by a stop sign?

Note that many intersection in the cities or anywhere else are NOT controlled by traffic lights. Motorists passing through an intersection where the other streets have the stop or yield sign are not prepared or likely to stop because a pedestrian is waiting to cross, at least not in (m)any East Coast city.

Last edited by I-Like-To-Bike; 07-18-19 at 12:07 PM.
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Old 07-18-19, 12:31 PM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Are you implying that motorists who are driving though an intersection on a through street (without a stop or yield-to-pedestrian sign controlling their movement) are obligated, let alone likely, to come to a halt to let pedestrians who might want to cross from the pavement or sidewalk parallel to the side street where the motorists and cyclists' movements are controlled by a stop sign?
It's not entirely clear what situation you are describing as there seem to be conflicting elements.

However, in any situation where it is legal for pedestrian to cross at all, then, unless either

a) There is a pedestrian light currently commanding the pedestrian not to cross

or

b) The pedestrian arrives too late for the motorist to safely stop

Then

1) At least in Minnesota the motorist is required to stop so that the pedestrian can cross, because their law paints a virtual crosswalk anywhere there could be one

2) Anywhere else it would be prudent and courteous for them to do so. Likely it will eventually become required, either explicitly or as the result of related laws

Note that many intersections in the cities or anywhere else are NOT controlled by traffic lights. Motorists passing through an intersection where the other streets have the stop or yield sign are not prepared or likely to stop because a pedestrian is waiting to cross, at least not in (m)any East Coast city.
Most of these would have a crosswalk painted unless it is in disrepair or has been repaved and not repainted yet, so that is something they are required to honor for a pedestrian, even in a case where a car having the same timing as the pedestrians would have to yield to them.

Last edited by UniChris; 07-18-19 at 12:35 PM.
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Old 07-18-19, 12:38 PM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Are you implying that motorists who are driving though an intersection on a through street (without a stop or yield-to-pedestrian sign controlling their movement) are obligated, let alone likely, to come to a halt to let pedestrians who might want to cross from the pavement or sidewalk parallel to the side street where the motorists and cyclists' movements are controlled by a stop sign?

Note that many intersection in the cities or anywhere else are NOT controlled by traffic lights. Motorists passing through an intersection where the other streets have the stop or yield sign are not prepared or likely to stop because a pedestrian is waiting to cross, at least not in (m)any East Coast city.
I think that's what they're implying.
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Old 07-18-19, 12:43 PM
  #79  
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Originally Posted by UniChris
However, in any situation where it is legal for pedestrian to cross at all, then, unless either

a) There is a pedestrian light currently commanding the pedestrian not to cross

or

b) The pedestrian arrives too late for the motorist to safely stop

Then

1) At least in Minnesota the motorist is required to stop so that the pedestrian can cross, because their law paints a virtual crosswalk anywhere there could be one

2) Anywhere else it would be prudent and courteous for them to do so. Likely it will eventually become required, either explicitly or as the result of related laws

The above statement is a lot different than your previous assumptions and overreach (below) on this subject:

"At least in the US, there's both a social and legal trend that, contrary to your opinion, is increasingly making this a situation where cars must stop to let humans cross.

Effectively, you are the one "doing it wrong" . What should be happening is that the car coming one way stops when they see you waiting to cross, you check for traffic the other way and when it is safe you cross. Typically one car stopping is a *huge* signal to those going the other way to also stop, if they were not being mindful of their obligation to do so. And if following traffic is going to rear-end a car that has appropriately slowed and stopped, that following traffic was not following safely."
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Old 07-18-19, 12:43 PM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by Chinghis
(How does the multi-quote work here? I clicked four or five posts, but don't see how to insert them.
We were just discussing this in the Addiction thread. Click the multiquote box for each one you want to quote EXCEPT the last one. For the last one, you click the quote box.

It apparently does not work with all browsers, including mine.
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Old 07-18-19, 12:44 PM
  #81  
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Obtl
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Old 07-18-19, 12:46 PM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
The above statement is a lot different than your previous assumptions and overreach (below) on this subject:


No, it isn't. It's merely providing more detail of the eame thing.

Read again:

1) At least in Minnesota the motorist is required to stop so that the pedestrian can cross, because their law paints a virtual crosswalk anywhere there could be one

2) Anywhere else it would be prudent and courteous for them to do so. Likely it will eventually become required, either explicitly or as the result of related laws


and

"At least in the US, there's both a social and legal trend that, contrary to your opinion, is increasingly making this a situation where cars must stop to let humans cross.
---

Effectively, you are the one "doing it wrong"
That's exactly what happens when you refuse drivers' either legally required or otherwise prudent and courteous attempts to yield so that you can safely cross.

Go ahead and be as obstinate here as you apparently are on the roads; it reflects just as badly on you in both settings.

Last edited by UniChris; 07-18-19 at 12:50 PM.
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Old 07-18-19, 01:15 PM
  #83  
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So how does this work?

The government is just going to ignore that the lane is for bikes and allow motorized delivery robots?

They are just going to ignore that the MUP is for non-motorized, recreational transport and allow commercial use?

Who is going to file the first lawsuit to prevent these things?

The Silver Comet Trail here in Georgia has signs prohibiting motorized vehicles. If I see these things I'm going to dial 911 and report them.


-Tim-
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Old 07-18-19, 01:20 PM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by TimothyH
So how does this work?

The government is just going to ignore that the lane is for bikes and allow motorized delivery robots?
Either they'll get special permission from bureaucrats who didn't think things through but merely fell for the power point and the opportunity to be a technology incubator and cradle to the wave of the future.

Or they'll do the typical startup thing and brazen it out assuming the laws will catch up to their fulfillment "of an obvious need", before they get in too much trouble for it

If they do become legal, I want to a rolling water cooler to escort my rides and run interference.
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Old 07-18-19, 01:44 PM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by TimothyH
So how does this work?

The government is just going to ignore that the lane is for bikes and allow motorized delivery robots?

They are just going to ignore that the MUP is for non-motorized, recreational transport and allow commercial use?

Who is going to file the first lawsuit to prevent these things?

The Silver Comet Trail here in Georgia has signs prohibiting motorized vehicles. If I see these things I'm going to dial 911 and report them.


-Tim-
Someone quipped that laws were made to support business first! Going to work one morning and had to go around the Channel 46 truck parked SQUARE in the middle of the MUP. Tech told me, "we will only be here awhile." Told him the 'coverage I could count on' was him getting OFF the MUP! Emailed both the local constabulary and the station. Cue the elfin' crickets.... Earlier this month, Stone Mountain City maintenance trucks parked on the MUP. This past year it has been a fiasco of camera crews (one covering a politician), maintenance and construction morons that have no time or need for laws....

On topic, can someone construct a "cattle catcher" for my bike?

Last edited by Digger Goreman; 07-18-19 at 01:46 PM. Reason: addition to post
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Old 07-18-19, 02:05 PM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by UniChris
This is a delay that you are causing by your refusal to take an offered opportunity, if it is in fact safe to do so.

Perhaps it's time to learn how to fit into cooperative road interactions, because in actuality the situation is not always adversarial.

No, don't do anything that is unsafe. But if a car is stopped and the driver is making eye contact, you can begin to cross in front of that car while waiting to see what happens on the other side. Typically the fact of the one lane being stopped, and of your crossing, will quickly resolve the situation on the other side in your favor, but yes, wait until you are sure.

I guarantee that those drivers you have this stalemate with leave with very uncharitable thoughts of your obstinance.
The drive can hate me all they want. I will still wait out until the traffic is clear to MY satisfaction and live.

I cross at a light every day where there is a left and a right turn signal where there is no telling which direction cars are going to go. I don't want to be in that intersection with cars. But I know, for a fact, that all the traffic will get through the intersection before the light changes. This leaves me with ample time to cross AFTER THE CARS ARE GONE before the light changes and the signal coming towards be turns green and allows the traffic to turn into the intersection from the other direction.

So I wait until the last car goes through, then I safely cross before the opposing traffic enters.

It works out well every day.

I'm never going to ride through that death trap in traffic.

I hop up on the sidewalk and stand there, out of the traffic flow, waiting for the safe point to jump back in and cross. And every other time someone stops and tries to urge me to go back into traffic in front of them.

Nope. Not doing it. Why would I want to be in FRONT of your car? Why does the driver want me in front when he's just going to immediately try to pass me or make the turn around me.

Follow the right of way laid out by the traffic laws. Then I know what you're doing. And once all the cars are gone, then I'll ride safely with no cars left to have to guess what I'm going to do. And if the drivers are mad at me because of this...that's their problem. I'm standing off the road in the grass on the other side of the sidewalk for a reason....so you know I'm not going to jump out in front of you.
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Old 07-18-19, 02:17 PM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by Chinghis
It's great how this turned into a discussion of Right-of-way - another one of my pet peeves.

(How does the multi-quote work here? I clicked four or five posts, but don't see how to insert them. Anyway, I love all your comments. That's a great image of those sad little delivery bots in England.)
We ran out of robot jokes.

We covered Battlebots...ways to disable robots...ways to confuse robots...funny things you can do to robots....

Being mad as human drivers was the next logical progression
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Old 07-18-19, 02:38 PM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by indyfabz
Meet Marty. He works for a regional grocery store chain roaming the aisles looking for spills, which he then alerts management to. ...

OMG! I saw one of these type (tall, thin) robots today at Martin's grocery store. It was maneuvering very slowly and cautiously down a main aisle, doing its best to avoid the humans walking both ways while announcing via Wi-Fi over the store speaker for cleanups in a particular aisle. Would have had zero clue what it was if I hadn't been reading this thread. Interesting that people walked by the 7' tall stick robot as if it was just another store display, utterly ignoring the fact that it was a moving one. Maybe because this robot didn't have fake eyes.

TIL patrolling robots are probably at a store near you!
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Old 07-18-19, 02:45 PM
  #89  
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it should blink like a reptile & say "meep meep!" as it passes by.
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Old 07-18-19, 03:07 PM
  #90  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
Pretty sure the only way these would be legal on most American bike paths is if they put pedals on them or have disabled people riding them.

Seriously, if motor rules aren't made very clear, there's some urban paths that could essentially turn them into commercial delivery routes. For example, pedal assist rules currently limit speed, but so far no regulation of weight, which is inviting to heavy cargo bikes.
This is where I’m at, too! The bike paths/MUPs are not auxiliary roads. I wonder how the moms with toddlers and dogs are handling sharing the road with these things?
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Old 07-18-19, 03:14 PM
  #91  
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America's federally mandated minimum wage is the lowest in the developed world by far. That is the reason these things have not made any real inroads here. Humans are cheaper. Like it or not this IS political and I'm not sure what the point of discussing it at all is if we aren't going to take it all the way home and confront the 800lb. gorilla. I'll say no more.
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Old 07-18-19, 05:27 PM
  #92  
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Originally Posted by Skipjacks
Do they have voice interfaces?

I'll say "Hey robot? Divide 1 by 0" then watch it slowly overheat until it catches fire.
We need Captain Kirk.

Originally Posted by BlazingPedals
Won't that be great to see? Two robots each sitting between the bollards and waiting for the other to get out of the way. Worse than the Chip-n-Dale routine the drivers around here do, trying to give me the right of way when I'm not expecting it. "after you!" ... "no, after you!..."
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Is that what motorists do in NYC, or any other East Coast metropolitan area in the U.S to allow pedestrians and cyclists to cross at unmarked locations without traffic controls? Yeah, sure.
In Los Angeles, it's hit and miss. Pedestrians literally have the right of way at (almost, I assume) every intersection in the state, marked or no. If you're standing on the corner facing a not-too-busy street, chances are good someone will stop for you. Coming here from the East Coast, it took me probably two decades to get used to cars stopping randomly at intersections because some yutz is standing there with a dumb look on their face. Or, you can do what my friend from New York, and just drive through the crosswalk. He didn't realize that folks literally don't look before stepping out into the street, because you know, they have the right of way. I've trained my children out of that habit. Then again, my wife will make me stand at a red light like those two sad bots up there. I stand there and chafe while there's no traffic.

Originally Posted by indyfabz
We were just discussing this in the Addiction thread. Click the multiquote box for each one you want to quote EXCEPT the last one. For the last one, you click the quote box.

It apparently does not work with all browsers, including mine.
That's just goofy. But it worked this time. Many thanks.

(Oh, wait, there are all the other posts I wanted to quote from a few hours ago. Sheesh.)
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Old 07-18-19, 05:52 PM
  #93  
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In Michigan the law reads, pedestrians have the right-of-way in all marked and unmarked crosswalks. So like Minnesota, there's a virtual crosswalk at every intersection and in a few other likely spots where sidewalks empty into streets mid-block. Generally the interpretation is that a pedestrian controls his/her current lane plus a half-lane in either direction. IOW, don't walk out suddenly into the path of a car that can't stop even if the driver wants to.

I'm assertive enough to step out as soon as drivers who see me can stop, but careful enough to keep wary watch out of the corner of my eye.

And yes, I've had to pull my feet back at the last instant before. One of those times, a police was right behind the driver and immediately pulled him over. Instant karma!
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Old 07-18-19, 06:04 PM
  #94  
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Originally Posted by Worknomore
Cool! More fun than shooting drones.
And no bag limits!!! Wonder which caliber is best suited for this application.
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Old 07-18-19, 06:18 PM
  #95  
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Originally Posted by Skipjacks
Follow the right of way laid out by the traffic laws. Then I know what you're doing.
The situation of the intersection you describe is by no means clear. If drivers were trying to get you to cross against the direction of the light, that would indeed be odd. But crossing with it, it's not obvious why turning drivers would not be required to yield to a pedestrian there - the whole idea of a leading pedestrian interval (and increasing official invitation for cyclists to use it as well) is that the unprotected people go first.

You might still not want to, but once you are off the bike you are definitely a pedestrian, so drivers trying to allow you to go first may be doing no more than the law requires for what they perceive (albeit incorrectly) your intent to be.

Last edited by UniChris; 07-19-19 at 09:42 AM.
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Old 07-19-19, 02:38 AM
  #96  
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Originally Posted by UniChris
Except where there's a traffic signal with a walk phase, at places where it is legal for a pedestrian to cross, that is in fact pretty much the law in civilized countries.

Ironically the first place I really experienced drivers obeying that was in London. Sorry to hear things have fallen so far behind.
That sounds like a pedestrian crossing i mentioned earlier. Where a crossing is actually printed on the road with lights.

We also have a lot of islands in between lanes. So you've only got to wait for a gap in one lane at a time. It makes more sense for a pedestrian to work around traffic than traffic to work around pedestrians - that coming from someone who doesn't even drive..
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Old 07-19-19, 02:48 AM
  #97  
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Originally Posted by UniChris
Here, for example, is a summary of a good set of pedestrian crossing laws from Minnesota:


Note that in particular there is no distinction between intersections that do and do not have a painted crosswalk unless there is a pedestrian signal, in which case that governs. This isn't yet the law everywhere, but it's a direction in which things are moving in practice, and likely eventually law.

And note that even in places where the law does not require drivers to preemptively yield to pedestrians who want to cross, it does require them to yield to pedestrians who are in the act of crossing, when that crossing is legal and was begun safely. If a car stops and you begin crossing, they are now obligated to yield to you. As are any other cars that then approach with reasonable time to react. Though that doesn't mean you should cross their paths before being sure they are doing so.



The more I look at this, the more surprised I am that it does not have a painted crossing. Then I notice it does not have a line between the two directional lanes, either. Is that normal in this location? It seems odd for that to be missing on a road with the kind of speed that has been implied. The paving looks very fresh, I cannot help but wonder if it has recently been resurfaced and none of the usual paint or stick-on markings yet re-applied.
It's perfectly normal and there are hundreds like this all over town. Most of our residential roads are blank. This is tarmac but many are brick. The only place you find white lines is at junctions or on the grid bypass roads.

The omission of lines slows traffic. Give someone a lane and they'll take it, full assault, no matter what! Blank areas promote caution. Also, the pedestrians and cyclists are told to stop. Because it's a road. They cross when it's safe. No confusion.
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Old 07-19-19, 09:05 AM
  #98  
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Originally Posted by Troul
it should blink like a reptile & say "meep meep!" as it passes by.
Since this thread is already geeked to the n+1, may I observe that the Roadrunner reference ... well, the Greater Roadrunner (Geococcyx californianus) is NOT a reptile ...
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Old 07-19-19, 09:13 AM
  #99  
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Originally Posted by indyfabz
It's set in the future. People have become too fat and lazy to do anything for themselves. They move around on hover lounge chairs, watch TV and eat.
The future, you say. How far into the future?
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Old 07-19-19, 09:26 AM
  #100  
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm
Since this thread is already geeked to the n+1, may I observe that the Roadrunner reference ... well, the Greater Roadrunner (Geococcyx californianus) is NOT a reptile ...
I saw Chuck Jones, famous WB director and creator of the roadrunner, coyote and Pepe LePew, speak back in '95. He told the story of how they came up with the roadrunner sound. (I hear it as "meep meep, while others hear it as "beep beep".) There was a short many who worked in the animation studio at the time. He would walk around the office very fast with stacks of art work in his hand that obscured his vision. To alert co-workers as he rushed around the office he would say "Beeb! Beeb!"

Daffy Duck's voice was a mock of producer Leon Schlessigner, who had a lisp and was, according to Jones, a real a-hole. Jones was still an animator when the character was being created. Jones and a few others went to Mel Blanc and asked him if he could do Leon as a screwball duck. The day came for the first screening. Leon came into the screening room and said, as he often did, "Roll the junk." They all expected to be fired on the spot. Instead, Leon especially loved the voice, having no idea he was being mocked.
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