NeilGunton

Ok, Jon, if you want to start spreading lies about me on other websites, then that's your prerogative. But if you're going to do that, then I guess I should undelete the thread where I banned you, so that people can see some context on what really happened. I deleted this thread, remember, because you asked me to somehow make it go away so your name wouldn't be associated with being banned. I obliged because I wasn't interested in being vindictive (unlike you, apparently). You didn't like having your name associated with such events. But now you're quite happy to start slandering me elsewhere? You're a piece of work.

I didn't bring this up here on this thread about Big Agnes bags, but I feel compelled to respond now. Here's the thread in question, brought back from the dead:

https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/forum...read_id=157481

To be clear, here's what happened:

1. A couple of weeks ago I noticed that Jon Picklesimer had put a big link on his published journal, to the effect that the rest of the journal could be read over on his new website. This goes against the journal posting rules on crazyguyonabike, which say that journals have to be complete works hosted here, not promotional stubs or teasers linking off-site. We had a somewhat strained, but cordial conversation via email, during which Jon made some remarks about the site which seemed very petty to me, but I let it slide and let him republish after he promised that he would in fact be posting the journal on both sites.

2. Yesterday, I noticed that Jon had posted two different threads on the forums, with affiliate links to products on REI. These links start with avantlink.com, and I notice he's also done it here on bikeforums. These affiliate links make money for Jon when people click through and then buy products from the linked site. I told him to please stop doing this, because the practice calls into question the motivation of the poster, and it also reduces the sincerity of the forums. If people are posting links to products that say "Hey this is great, check it out", and the link makes the poster money, then this is a slippery slope.

3. After I asked him not to do this any more, he started talking about how the "Donate" link on crazyguyonabike was "questionable" given that I frown on donation links within journals. I might have pointed to previous threads on crazyguyonabike where we have discussed this very issue, e.g.

https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/forum...read_id=107862

As you will see if you read that thread, I was the one suggesting allowing people have these 'Donate to author' links on their profile page, but users of crazyguyonabike really seemed to hate the idea. They all wanted the site to remain as commercial-free as possible, otherwise the journals risked becoming perverted by people trying to make money, rather than simply posting bicycle tours for their own sake.

I was tired of dealing with Jon, and I decided to just ban him from the site. I don't do this lightly, but I have done it a few times. There is always a good reason; and repeatedly the users of crazyguyonabike have informed me that I should take this sort of action when I feel that a person has just become a "problem user". I have enough work to do without arguing with people who apparently want to lash out and start telling me that their spamming the forums with affiliate links is morally equivalent to me having voluntary donation links on the website, which I provide for free to the world, and which takes up all my time to maintain and develop. Perhaps other sites just let trolls and asshats roam freely, but I do not, and that is *my* prerogative.

I always think it's amusing when other people pop up in these discussions to gloat over some new "nazi like" actions on my part. Gregw, for example, used to be a user on crazyguyonabike, until a thread about emigrating to New Zealand blew up and became quite contentious. You can read that thread here, anybody who's interested:

https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/forum...hread_id=77104

You can guess for yourself who the user "Gregw" is there. He basically accuses me of being mentally ill because I was criticizing the USA (really - go read, it's a blast). I post this to lend some context - these people hold resentments a long time, but it's useful to see some context. The funny thing is, Gregw was never banned from the site - he just decided to go away on his own accord. Most people on crazyguyonabike seem to see me as someone who can be trusted to make reasonable decisions, but of course there will always be some who get riled at my politics or other decisions. I run a site that is used by thousands of people - of course there will be some who end up leaving because of whatever grievance, or else actively kicked off by me. They don't go away, though, but rather hang around in the shadows, waiting to pop up whenever stuff like this is raised, to jump up and down and laugh. Very classy.

That's all, sorry for this off-topic tangent, but it really wasn't of my making.

Neil

vegenaise

lol. put that moron in his place. knew he was lame as soon as he started posting those affiliate links. mods should ban him.

PedaltheGlobe

Neil now you are intentionally stretching the truth and leaving out details. I NEVER asked you to delete the thread. Once you decided to ban me you first made a response in the thread that left in the minds of the readers that I was trying to somehow manipulate them by posting an affiliate link. I simply asked you that if you were not going to allow me to defend myself in the thread before closing my account then to please remove my name from the thread. I NEVER ONCE said to close the thread. I have the emails to prove it from you, but won't go as far as posting personal emails between you and I in the forums. Personally I am glad you put the thread back up. I think it shows your hind end much worse than mine. It shows that you go and edit your members posts at your discretion. Who wants to write posts with their name on it that can be changed by you. What you should have done if you didn't like my post is ask me to change it. Not go and adjust my post on your own and make it as if I said things in it I didn't. If you did this to me I wonder how many of your other members you have done it to?

I never intended to come here and say a thing about you. I actually responded to the original post and then was scanning the other responses and noticed you were a member here which was unexpected. Then I started looking through your profile on here and noticed that you link to your sites through it. Which is reason 1 of two reasons why you said I was banned. For posting on cgoab a link to my personal site. That is hypocrisy if I have ever seen it.
No Neil you took it the wrong way. From the initial email you sent me demanding me to take the link down to my personal site you were quite rude. I got the vibe you were upset, because I decided to host my next tour also on my personal site. I tried to be polite and simply responded the reason I was hosting on two sites was so I could have my facebook, twitter feeds, and donation links available to my viewers for my next tour. You somehow took this as I was trying to put down cgoab and went berserk on me throughout the remaining emails.

If you had ever stopped to ask me before you made it out like I am doing it for personal gain I would have told you, Neil, that my affiliate commissions go to charity. Also, you are making it out as if I am out there spamming forums with hundreds of products. There were only two. One was a pair of Brooks shoes that I have thoroughly used and love. The other is a new bike touring tent that I had not saw mentioned anywhere else on your forum that I thought would be beneficial to your readers. One even thanked me for posting that affiliate link in the very thread we are talking about.

Also, if you want to get into sincerity and making profit from forum posts then what about you, Neil? I know you have reached an agreement with Co-motion to promote their product and they have given you a $4500 rig among who knows what else in exchange. Ever since you have been hyping co-motion products throughout your forums and putting down products such as Surly that previously you used to proclaim as excellent
Your donation link is questionable, Neil. I think anyone who puts work into a site should get some compensation, but you explicitly state in your "site rules/how to write a journal on cgoab" that putting donation links in blogs is frowned upon. Do you not understand that the majority of long bike tours are done for charity? You have an amazing opportunity to embrace and help with that and yet you frown upon it? Yet you are calling my morals into question?

Actually, as soon as I was banned I received numerous emails from others saying they had also been banned for similar reasons and didn't agree with what you did. So its been more than just a few times, Neil Gunton.


In conclusion I would like to say I wish the best for you, Neil. I really do. Also, I am sorry I brought our argument up in this forum. I was just upset that I perceived you doing on here one of the things you banned me for on your site. I really do hope you change your mind on the "donation for charities link" on your site for your members journals. No matter what the conclusion you came to in the thread you mentioned above. Again I think you have an amazing opportunity running a site where so much possible charity work can be done. Hopefully one day you look at it that way. I will be riding the Pacific Coast route later this year. I assume your town, Eureka, is on that route? If it is maybe I can buy you a beer if you are up for it by then.

Cyclesafe

So let's see. The OP wanted to know about Big Agnes bags. I think the concept is interesting, but it doesn't work for everybody - especially claustrophobic side sleepers. Personally, I like a narrow mummy bag that twists with me when I toss and turn and I also use a broader 25" wide mat so I don't fall off.

gregw

Just a little sarcastic humor there Neil, lighten-up.
It is a good read though, but it shows my naiveté at that time, I was just not exposed to that kind of far left, anti-American opinion in my little world and when I read his post it really struck a cord. If I had to do it over, I would not have bothered to post anything, but I did and you can't go back. BTW, my response was absolutely spot-on.

Oh, and I love the Big Agnes bags, I just ordered their 40 degree Yampa bag, it's an over bag that I can use stand alone in the summer and add my current 30 degree bag to in the winter for a 5 degree combination. On sale right now and back country gear, I can find a link if your interested.

Cyclesafe

But I just can't resist responding to this OT stuff about CGOAG. First of all, the owner can do whatever he wants with his property. He has no duty to be democratic, no obligation to allow free speech, and even no need to be consistent or fair. He can exclude religious zealotry, commercialism, charitable appeals, moral indignation - whatever. He can be as capricious as he wants, he can be as insulting as he wishes, he can delete your posts, he can change your posts. He can even dredge up old threads and claim they substantiate his positions. It's his website people - get over it.

Personally, I've had quite a chuckle watching (?) the owner rip into other people's values and opinions. He's very direct and blunt and doesn't hesitate to say what he thinks to posters who contribute time to create content and who even send him money. He even convinces vendors to give him special deals on equipment only to rip them too. I'll bet he scores a Hilleberg soon!

This is BF, not CGOAB. Nevertheless, if its owner can identify the poster of unpositive stuff about him here, that poster risks being banned on CGOAB. If the poster has a big investment in time/money in CGOAB, that's something to be concerned about.

Now that chills speech doesn't it?

PedaltheGlobe

My following comments are strictly in response to Cyclesafe as I am done with the debate with Neil......


I totally agree with you for the most part. The owner of a site can do whatever they please in just about every area you said except for changing posts. It would be considered libel in a court of law if a site owner were to change a members posts to something that could damage them either financially or in how they are perceived in their community. Especially on sites where the members have extensive journals and people can easily identify them in real life. In my case that didn't happen or anything close to it nor do I think it would have ever went that far, but personally as a site owner I wouldn't even want the ability to adjust peoples posts beyond being able to delete them. The financial risk in a court of law is just too high if something were to happen.

The real question is should a site owner do as they please even if they legally can. Unfortunately morality and legality don't always fall hand in hand. Whats moral and right isn't always policed by our justice systems. Im simply of the belief that if someone has the opportunity to help others than they should. I guess its just the way I was brought up and I will be the first to admit I have my flaws, but I know in my heart that this value of mine is correct. The next question comes to business if the site is profitable and the owner is doing it for a living or at least an income. Should they do as they please? Well you are totally right that they can, but it might be costing them a lot of money that they aren't even realizing they are losing. This is the internet and A LOT more people are always watching than we think and word spreads FAST. Regardless if a site owner likes it or not, if they market their site as a community then they should be prepared for conflicting opinions. Just like in the real world where people migrate from dictatorships to democracies the same can happen to a website. People want the right to voice their opinions and if they can't do that they will move on to somewhere they can.

vegenaise

except nobody want to hear what you have to say. go away.

PedaltheGlobe

When a guy like you starts speaking for the masses we will really be in trouble.

vegenaise

when a guy like you thinks he has something worthwhile to say, then we're actually in trouble.

NeilGunton

Again, just to lend some context here: Cyclesafe was, until very recently, a regular user on crazyguyonabike. I didn't ban him, he fled the site all by himself after he blew up at someone over a forum post on testicular shaving (really). The post didn't seem salacious or inappropriate to me, and I said so on the forum. Apparently this offended him greatly. I then deleted the increasingly heated messages that were taking that thread way off-topic, and this was apparently enough for Cyclesafe to delete all his journals and change his profile to gibberish. I asked him via email to reconsider, since I felt that he had previously been a valuable member of the website, and I told him that I could un-delete his journals if he wanted to come back after he cooled down. But apparently the whole episode was just too much, and I haven't heard back.. until now, of course.

I guess everybody has buttons, and that forum thread pushed his button... but I didn't ban him at all.

With respect to me editing other people's posts... I sometimes go in and edit a post only to fix a broken link, or make an extremely long link more readable (by putting it inside an HTML tag), or other formatting issues. But this is just housekeeping stuff - I never change people's words to say something other than what they intended. Ever. If I feel that posts are extremely off-topic or spam etc then I might delete them, but that's par for the course on most sites.

On the subject of "free speech"... I will ban people from crazyguyonabike if they are becoming obnoxious, argumentative, or otherwise obstreperous. I just don't have the time or energy to deal with such people, and when they start to become a problem then yes, I ask them to leave the site. This hasn't actually happened all that often, considering how many people use crazyguyonabike - out of thousands of people, it's really just been a handful - not "numerous" as was inferred in a previous post here. I certainly do not go around banning people for the slightest infraction, and most regular users of crazyguyonabike know this full well. I always try to be fair, though of course those people who get canned will always see things differently. But most of the time, I think the users of the site appreciate the fact that I take a personal interest in keeping things sane, and not letting it descend into the kind of flamefests that often happen elsewhere. Usually I think I'm very tolerant, letting people express themselves freely - all I ask is that they keep it civil, and mostly on-topic. If people see that as squelching free speech, then I suggest they try running a community website sometime and see for themselves how difficult it is dealing with the general public. You just can't please everybody all the time. Either you moderate and put your foot down sometimes, or else you let everybody have free reign - in which case, what you'll end up with is a playground for the trolls and spammers, where only the thick-skinned and loud mouthed will feel comfortable.

Again, sorry for the off-topic posts here... I didn't start this, but once people start casting aspersions my way, I just feel compelled to try to lend some context.

Neil

kayakdiver

Enough.. back and forth. This was about a sleeping bag.

NeilGunton

Sorry, but I was not the one to take the thread in this direction. If people start posting personal attacks on me then I think I have the right to respond, and additionally not be blamed for the original off-topic tangent.

Neil

kayakdiver

And you can be the bigger man and let it die.

NeilGunton

Easy to say when you're not the one being attacked...

kayakdiver

It's really simple. If they don't like your site.. They don't have to use it. If they don't like your politics.. they need thicker skin. I like the site and will be posting my next tour coming up on CGOB.

I still like Big Agnes products.. Really like my Seedhouse.

LeeG

kyakdiver, the seedhouse looks like a good deal but the reviews pan it for the opening. How has it been for use in heavy rain? I've been considering the pricier one for the side opening. I forget the name.

gregw

I had the seedhouse sl and sold it because of the opening, not good for a big guy. I now have the MSR Hubba bubba, a much better tent in many regards, 2 side doors, 2 vestibules, you can leave the doors completely open in light rain and you can close them to any level you want to maximize ventilation. Great touring tent under 5lbs. If your going ultra-light you can't beat the Zpack shelter that weighs 11oz with ground cloth and pegs. Just ordered one for backpacking.

kayakdiver

it has been completely dry in some pretty serious rains. I'm guessing 20 plus nights of it and never a drop. Getting in and out is ok.. Nothing to terrible but it isn't as easy as a side entry.

What I like best about it is.......... setup is super easy. i stay dry and the color doesn't attract attention when i'm doing a little stealth camping. i like camping in campgrounds but sometimes i'll just drag the bike off the road.

Keep in mind that BA used to make two versions.. the seedhouse and the seedhouse SL. You want the SL version for sure. Poles are much stronger and pack up smaller(smaller sections).

Cyclesafe

Neil, you are so full of it. I left because you called me a prude pushing my mores on people. I defended myself and you deleted or modified all of the relevant posts so you didn't look so foolish rationalizing testicle shaving on your web site (really).

Since I couldn't fathom sending you more money after you so clumsily tried to insult me, I felt that I had no right to continue using your site for my journals and articles. So I took everything off your site that I could and am right now finding another place for them.

Furthermore, I have been contacted by 6 people who have similarly suffered from your vitriol. Since you have banned posters who throughly deserved it in addition to those who have abandoned you because you pushed their "buttons", I'm not proud to be counted among the growing number of ex-users of your site. But ex-user I am.

Good luck and good riddance.

NeilGunton

Yes, I said "Please don't try to enforce arbitrary standards of prudishness (sorry, that's how it comes across to me) on the rest of us". There really was nothing wrong with Joe's post, but for whatever reason it caused you to completely flip out. You could have simply reported the post if you felt it was inappropriate, but instead you brought out the big guns on the public forum. You know, you were pretty rude to that guy who was only trying to give some honest advice that was very apropos to the original question. If you start insulting people on the public forum, then you can expect the replies to be very public too. I don't see why you should be immune to this, and permitted to be as rude as you please, but I am apparently shackled and forbidden from giving my honest opinion in reply.

And by the way, I didn't remove those messages so I "wouldn't look so foolish defending testicle shaving", but rather because the thread had wildly veered off course and I could tell it would just continue to sit there gathering snarky remarks because of the nasty tone you had set. And I don't modify posts, unless it's to remove stuff like spam (the affiliate links in Jon's case) or other formatting issues. I never change people's words.

I didn't see you downloading your journals before you deleting them. If you already have them, then great - but if not, let me know if you'd like me to retrieve your journals for download. They can still be resurrected for that purpose, though I understand your desire to not be associated with the site any more. Either you can download yourself, or I could download them for you, burn them to a CD and send them to you through the mail. It just seems a shame to have all that work you put into them go to waste.

You know, this doesn't smell right to me. Yes, I have banned a few people, but it's not like there's a huge number in that group. Is there really this burgeoning hidden pool of resentful people who band together in private to lick their Neil-inflicted wounds and commiserate over what a mean ogre I am? I don't know if I should be flattered, amused, or very scared.

I've been amazed at how quickly some people can flip from being completely normal and rational one second, to being something completely different the next. So we were quite ok before, talking about stuff like Hilleberg tents and Co-Motion bikes, but then you bust a blood vessel over some innocuous post about groin shaving. I respond that it seems prudish, and the thread starts to really go off the rails, so I delete those messages to try to head off the developing flamefest. So now I'm the devil? Sheesh - overreact much?

Once again, I'm really sorry for the off-topic content here, my profound apologies to everybody.

Neil

vegenaise

don't worry. kyak get's his panties in a twist on the regs. i am enjoying this.

Cyclesafe

Thank you, but I'm set. Your recharacterization of the events is simply bizzare. I'm sure I won't be the last contributor giving you the old heave-ho.

Thasiet

Bicycle touring isn't bloodsport, you idiot. Except for all the America h8rs and people who expect others to pay for their vacations through product sponsorships and affiliate links or outright donations, it's actually a pretty genial community. So if you want to be a divisive, potty-mouthed whiner, you should gtfo and take your puerile opinions with you.

kayakdiver

This stuff belongs in P&R or foo... Not really here. Maybe it's own thread? I've been wrong before though.