Health hazards of chain lube
06-08-19, 07:31 PM
#151
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In fairness, I think the poster is referring to the campaign by Purdue Pharma and others to portray the data on oxycontin and other high-potency opioids as showing that the addictive potential was low in patients with significant pain. This was a deliberate misrepresentation and is the subject of criminal prosecution.
I was just out of a neurology residency at the time that this began and there was a big cultural shift in US clinics in favor of treating pain hyper-aggressively with narcotics, pain as the "fifth vital sign," and similar stuff, not all of it bad. In retrospect, quite a bit of this appears to have been commercially driven, but bull**** wasn't science then or now.
I was just out of a neurology residency at the time that this began and there was a big cultural shift in US clinics in favor of treating pain hyper-aggressively with narcotics, pain as the "fifth vital sign," and similar stuff, not all of it bad. In retrospect, quite a bit of this appears to have been commercially driven, but bull**** wasn't science then or now.
Seems like every generation someone seems to come up a supposedly non-addictive opiate or opioid, and it becomes a major public health problem.
Maybe we should start an "I'm addicted to Finish Line wet lube" thread.
06-08-19, 07:37 PM
#152
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I don't get it, I just googled it and found tons of sources. Of course just like any other supplement, you really don't know what is in the bottle.
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06-08-19, 07:38 PM
#153
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I wonder why lsd never got problematic? it was legal for a long time. oh yeah no possible addiction potential. yet its still illegal.
06-08-19, 07:42 PM
#155
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06-08-19, 07:56 PM
#156
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there is a 2-3h docu on youtube on that. i heard it. but it called some other crapola i cant remember.
very much knowledge in that imo. you have to dig.
not afraid of highly phychoactive substances myself though.
very much knowledge in that imo. you have to dig.
not afraid of highly phychoactive substances myself though.
06-08-19, 08:03 PM
#157
Senior Member
there is nothing more deeply psychoactively challenging than going to amsterdam and smoking your brain out on some/any type of hazxe, going full out, then going to red lighjt district. its completely silent there and you think your head will explode aaany minute now, and still you are there, and you have to deal with it. and its not like you can get away. this is much much more scary than any hallucinigen ever tried by man. ask me how i know. i know.
and if you are prone to psuchotic breaks you will have it there and then. you are hereby warned. its a good learning lesson though. being there.
and if you are prone to psuchotic breaks you will have it there and then. you are hereby warned. its a good learning lesson though. being there.
Last edited by carlos danger; 06-08-19 at 08:09 PM.
06-08-19, 08:06 PM
#158
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My opinion is that medical science is weakest in dealing with things that can't be objectively observed. Pain relief and psych meds have been and continue to be problematic, for example. It's part of the reason we really don't understand addiction well, and really can't treat it effectively on any consistent basis.
Seems like every generation someone seems to come up a supposedly non-addictive opiate or opioid, and it becomes a major public health problem.
Maybe we should start an "I'm addicted to Finish Line wet lube" thread.
Seems like every generation someone seems to come up a supposedly non-addictive opiate or opioid, and it becomes a major public health problem.
Maybe we should start an "I'm addicted to Finish Line wet lube" thread.
Last edited by MoAlpha; 06-08-19 at 08:09 PM.
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06-08-19, 08:55 PM
#159
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Like I said, I don't want to be pursued by a big corp.
I suspect its probably not the only one to be unhealthy as most specialized lubes have complicated chemistries. There may well be a point in looking at other lubricants not only for reasons of personal health but also for the health of the planet.
I suspect its probably not the only one to be unhealthy as most specialized lubes have complicated chemistries. There may well be a point in looking at other lubricants not only for reasons of personal health but also for the health of the planet.
Besides, you probably don’t have the assets to make it worth their while to sue you.
So relax.
06-09-19, 03:28 AM
#160
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That's a lot to unpack, and it's so far ot, I won't go farther--I don't think scientific understanding of addictions like alcoholism can be considered "advanced" in any sense of the word.
06-09-19, 03:34 AM
#162
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Or not--have you seen what has been found when the contents of supplement bottles are actually tested? The most infamous was Target selling ginseng capsules that contained no ginseng.
Why did you claim that milk thistle was now classified as a drug and no longer available? That was weird.
Why did you claim that milk thistle was now classified as a drug and no longer available? That was weird.
06-09-19, 03:36 AM
#163
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06-09-19, 04:01 AM
#165
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The OP provided me the identity of the chain lube in question and I reviewed all of the hazardous components. These are all refined petroleum products. Primary hazards common to all of these are skin and eye irritation. Petroleum products also are classified as severe aspiration hazards because death may occur through lung damage if you drink the material. What happens is that you when you vomit the material back up it can enter your trachea into your lungs. Oh, yeah - if you huff it, you can get dizzy and pass out.
All of these materials have some environmental toxicity as you would expect of petroleum products. There is evidence that short chain chlorinated paraffins, though not significantly toxic to fish, may bio-accumulate.
Below is a list of the components, with specific comments.
50-70% Distillates (petroleum), hydrotreated light (c9-c16)
This is analgous to kerosine.
10-20% Distillates (petroleum), hydrotreated heavy naphthenic (C20-C50).
Can be classified as a suspected human carcinogen if it contains > 3% polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs). The chain lube manufacturer did not use the carcinogen classification in the product literature so there is some probability that the PAH concentration is below the limit.
There have been some studies showing toxic effects on adrenals, bone marrow, liver, lymph nodes, kidney, stomach, thymus through prolonged or repeated skin exposure; however I found mention of a study of rabbit skin exposure toxicity LD>5000mg/kg, which is not significantly toxic.
10-15% Short chain chlorinated paraffins (C6-C18)
From an assessment by the Australian National Industrial Chemicals Notification and Assessment Scheme (NICNAS): SCCPs exhibit very low acute toxicity by all three routes in animals. Mild skin and eye irritation were observed in some animal studies. Available human data indicate that SCCPs do not cause skin irritation and are not sensitisers.
1-5% Solvent naphtha (petroleum), light aromatic (C8-C10).
Can be classified as a suspected human carcinogen if it contains > 0.1% benzene. The chain lube manufacturer did not use the carcinogen classification in the product literature so there is some probability that the benzine concentration is below the limit.
My bottom line opinion is that this chain lube, which will be used sparingly and infrequently (i.e. once every few weeks) does not present a significant hazard to the user or to the environment. I'd recommend that you wash if you get any on your skin and certainly don't drink it. Also, do not throw unused portions in the trash.
I have know idea why the LBS dropped the product. Their stated justification does not match reality.
All of these materials have some environmental toxicity as you would expect of petroleum products. There is evidence that short chain chlorinated paraffins, though not significantly toxic to fish, may bio-accumulate.
Below is a list of the components, with specific comments.
50-70% Distillates (petroleum), hydrotreated light (c9-c16)
This is analgous to kerosine.
10-20% Distillates (petroleum), hydrotreated heavy naphthenic (C20-C50).
Can be classified as a suspected human carcinogen if it contains > 3% polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs). The chain lube manufacturer did not use the carcinogen classification in the product literature so there is some probability that the PAH concentration is below the limit.
There have been some studies showing toxic effects on adrenals, bone marrow, liver, lymph nodes, kidney, stomach, thymus through prolonged or repeated skin exposure; however I found mention of a study of rabbit skin exposure toxicity LD>5000mg/kg, which is not significantly toxic.
10-15% Short chain chlorinated paraffins (C6-C18)
From an assessment by the Australian National Industrial Chemicals Notification and Assessment Scheme (NICNAS): SCCPs exhibit very low acute toxicity by all three routes in animals. Mild skin and eye irritation were observed in some animal studies. Available human data indicate that SCCPs do not cause skin irritation and are not sensitisers.
1-5% Solvent naphtha (petroleum), light aromatic (C8-C10).
Can be classified as a suspected human carcinogen if it contains > 0.1% benzene. The chain lube manufacturer did not use the carcinogen classification in the product literature so there is some probability that the benzine concentration is below the limit.
My bottom line opinion is that this chain lube, which will be used sparingly and infrequently (i.e. once every few weeks) does not present a significant hazard to the user or to the environment. I'd recommend that you wash if you get any on your skin and certainly don't drink it. Also, do not throw unused portions in the trash.
I have know idea why the LBS dropped the product. Their stated justification does not match reality.
06-09-19, 10:00 AM
#166
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I don't know where you get your science, but in Europe where I live opioids are regulated and only available with prescription because of their dangers and addiction potential. I don't know a single person who thinks opioids are safe. Also most drugs have side effects and are dangerous when overdosed. But with regulated drugs you get accurate dosage so the risk of overdose with responsible and informed use is minimized to almost nonexistence.
But just go on ahead and chug on your willow bark tea. I'll rather take an aspirin.
But just go on ahead and chug on your willow bark tea. I'll rather take an aspirin.
06-09-19, 10:06 AM
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So here's the formula for your posts --scientific medicine is bad because it did these specific bad things.
Know what you can't do? Defend alternative medicine. Scientific medicine has eradicated several diseases such as polio and smallpox, improved longevity, reduced mortality from many sorts of causes (including childbirth), made conditions that were death sentences such as diabetes 1, hemophilia, and HIV something that people can live long and productive lives, developed surgical techniques that can restore functionality to people who would have been largely immobilized in prior generations, and a whole host of other things that are objectively observable and verifiable. Alternative medicine has produced nothing but unverifiable stories and claims. It's primary success seems to be in alleviating the swelling of suckers' wallets.
You're putting your faith in an industry that regularly makes all sorts of claims on the labels of the products they sell, then has to put a disclaimer that says, in essence, we don't really mean it.
And btw, your Vioxx example is quite stupid. You do understand that it was scientific research that showed the hidden danger of the drug. Show me anywhere where alternative medicine has actually corrected earlier modality errors, I dare you.
I also double dog dare you to explain where these supposed toxins are stored, what exactly those toxins are, and the actual chemical mechanism by which these magic detoxifiers actually remove the toxins. And no, describing things by using analogies like "it's like detergent" will definitely not count.
You want this argument? Fine, you got it.
Know what you can't do? Defend alternative medicine. Scientific medicine has eradicated several diseases such as polio and smallpox, improved longevity, reduced mortality from many sorts of causes (including childbirth), made conditions that were death sentences such as diabetes 1, hemophilia, and HIV something that people can live long and productive lives, developed surgical techniques that can restore functionality to people who would have been largely immobilized in prior generations, and a whole host of other things that are objectively observable and verifiable. Alternative medicine has produced nothing but unverifiable stories and claims. It's primary success seems to be in alleviating the swelling of suckers' wallets.
You're putting your faith in an industry that regularly makes all sorts of claims on the labels of the products they sell, then has to put a disclaimer that says, in essence, we don't really mean it.
And btw, your Vioxx example is quite stupid. You do understand that it was scientific research that showed the hidden danger of the drug. Show me anywhere where alternative medicine has actually corrected earlier modality errors, I dare you.
I also double dog dare you to explain where these supposed toxins are stored, what exactly those toxins are, and the actual chemical mechanism by which these magic detoxifiers actually remove the toxins. And no, describing things by using analogies like "it's like detergent" will definitely not count.
You want this argument? Fine, you got it.
06-09-19, 10:40 AM
#168
Senior Member
The quotation marks around the word science were to show a satirical use of the word due to the drug companies proclaiming to have legitimate research to back up their sales goals. The US version of the BBC news has carried some of the stories about the lawsuits against these companies to recover some of the costs associated with treating opioid addicts, hasn't this been mentioned there?
FYI, if you really wanted to discuss ethical and correct, scientific use of drugs you should perhaps discuss it from the context of a nation with a single payer model and high enough doctor wages to inhibit corruption, as well as a functioning society with low levels of corruption. Scandinavia is a good place for that.
I'll start off with the fact that doctors here don't think opiates are safe for over the counter use or prescribing with rampant abandon. Any doctor can prescribe opiates but, they do not think they should be used without great need due to serious side effects and addiction potential.
On the other hand with the dangers and side effects you get some of the most effective pain medication on the planet, which is crucial for people who are high amounts of pain, terminal cancer patients being one.
But even if science does fail at times due to aforeimplied corruption, it does correct itself and solves a lot of problems. Alternative medicine has nothing like that. It's alternative, because if it worked, it would not be called alternative anymore. Also if there was proof of it working it'd then be science.
06-09-19, 11:07 AM
#169
Senior Member
hehehe.
science is not an exact science... didn't you know.
in the US any doctor can prescribe you opioids and possibly opiates just like that. and this is now causing more deaths than cars/guns/actual real drugs combined per year.
Gotta keep the machinery rolling man...
I'm gonna take an mdma/coke/speed sleeping pill soon. its from the doctor.
science is not an exact science... didn't you know.
in the US any doctor can prescribe you opioids and possibly opiates just like that. and this is now causing more deaths than cars/guns/actual real drugs combined per year.
Gotta keep the machinery rolling man...
I'm gonna take an mdma/coke/speed sleeping pill soon. its from the doctor.
However both MDMA and Speed are amphetamines, which are a class of substances which have been found to be useful for the treatment of ADHD. Wanna know a big symptom of ADHD? You guessed it, insomnia. It’s probably one of the worst symptoms, because sleep deprivation magnifies the other ones.
So ironically, even if you likely didn’t mean it, amphetamine ADHD drugs do work for a certain portion of the population, if not quite as sleeping pills, as sleep enhancers at least.
Cocaine on the other hand uses similar stimulation pathways so it could be considered a viable ADHD drug, IF it wasn’t also incredibly toxic. So that’s likely to be off limits for a long, long time if no one invents a non-toxic variant. There are likely to be other issues with it, but haven’t really looked into it that much. The general toxicity makes it undesirable for medical and thus for further study / consideration at least for me.
When I was diagnosed with ADHD at 30 years-old, I was prescribed methyphenidate, which falls between cocaine and amphetamines in both its stimulant pathway use and effectiveness. It’s pretty potent stuff, or so I imagine. At first it made me sleepy, so much so that I would pass out in the bus.
After the effects subsided somewhat, I was able to go the bed at 10pm and fall asleep when I decided I wanted to fall asleep. Before that I wouldn’t feel sleepy before 12pm and often even if I went to bed dead tired it could take me hours to fall asleep. I was also able to pass the bar-exam in a reasonable amount of time. I could finally study 4-8 hours a day in one to two-hour periods like a normal person instead of the absolute maximum of 15 minutes at a time I was struggling with in law school.
Oh and the big one was that I was able to get away from impending alcoholism. Many ADHD-sufferers who aren’t using meds are substance abusers because it’s the only thing that unwinds the mass of rubber bands inside their chest. Before I was diagnosed the only time I could really feel relaxed was when I was heavily intoxicated from alcohol. Or that’s what I thought it was. In reality being blackout drunk was in a way when I felt normal, like a healthy person would feel. Of course I wasn’t feeling normal because I was drunk, but you get the idea. I was counting days until the next time I could get wasted and my wife was frankly getting worried.
Nowadays the beers in our cellar are going bad because no one’s drinking them. I haven’t stopped using alcohol but I also feel absolutely no need for it anymore.
All of that because of 54mg of slow releasing methylphenidate every morning. Because it’s slow releasing I don’t at any point get the ‘bonus’ effects people misuse stimulants for. Not once have I felt euphoria or other positive vibes from it. But it does make me feel normal, which was a little overwhelming in the beginning.
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06-09-19, 12:34 PM
#170
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I've lubed a lot of chains and can't remember the last time I got any significant amount on my hands and haven't drank any.
06-09-19, 05:56 PM
#172
Rhapsodic Laviathan
Now I know why that sheep on Orsons farm, from Garfield & Friends was named Lanolin.
06-09-19, 06:04 PM
#173
Rhapsodic Laviathan
No, I wondered if anybody else knew anything about this. I did look online and didn't find anything, but my google-fu, isn't the best. It seems like nobody else has heard this, so I am tempted to go back to the bike shop and ask them about it.
I don't want to name the product unless I get some corroborating evidence. Companies are known to go after people who diss them online. Also it would be unfair to the company if it is not true.
I think I am leaning to the side of there being nothing to it. So I won't say anything more.
If anybody has anything to add about more eco friendly and healthy chain lubes I would be happy to hear it.
I don't want to name the product unless I get some corroborating evidence. Companies are known to go after people who diss them online. Also it would be unfair to the company if it is not true.
I think I am leaning to the side of there being nothing to it. So I won't say anything more.
If anybody has anything to add about more eco friendly and healthy chain lubes I would be happy to hear it.
06-09-19, 07:24 PM
#174
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No, I don't know how companies go after people who use their products for unintended purposes. I've used many, many products for purposes they were not intended for, ranging from tools to explosives without being "gone after". If anything, YOU might not have a case to go after THEM, if you got injured/damaged using a product for an unintended purpose. You can find youtube full of videos of people using products for unintended purposes.
06-09-19, 07:27 PM
#175
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I'd think about it if the $hit wasn't so expensive. I can get a good single malt or bourbon for a lot less per serving. I would, in fact, recommend those as a substitute for the gasoline chaser.