Gibsonsean

We've already danced that tune have we not Avole?
https://www.bikeforums.net/20502492-post1196.html
https://www.bikeforums.net/20504573-post1204.html

But still, for fun...
I like the Helix, admire the design and the journey they have been on, and hope the bike I have bought will be good. I do wish them well. I would not however cop to being a fan .

I am not an industry expert and have no insight on whether the market is over. Nothing I've read suggests the overall folder market is collapsing, nor the luxury folder market. Quite the opposite. I'd be interested in the stats or other info that suggests this.

Logically, in the multimodal transport space (a growth space), i am assuming a key driver of demand for folding bikes, there is competition from a range of e-vehicles especially scooters and e-bikes, for purchase and sharing. In response, many premium folder brands have brought out e-versions including Brompton and Hummingbird, and e-bike brands have brought out proper folders e.g. GoCycle GX.

So what does it mean for Helix? Hard to say. Helix has just developed it's first product and is yet to truely bring it to market. We don't know yet how they intend to go to market.

That said, I think the unique characteristics of the Helix are distictive and could make it competetive in the traditional folder space, allowing it to grow even in a shrinking market, if they hit their apparent target pricepoint.

On the assisted side of things I can see no reason why Helix wouldn't diversify quite quickly to address the e-bike demand. The design is well suited to adaptation to a rear hub motor with frame mounted battery.

avole

I don't remember dancing with you, Gibsonsean, but, since you seem on first name terms with the Helix designer, and are an eternal optimist, you did seem to be the person to ask. The recent figures I've seen - there was a topic about this not long ago - indicated the traditional bike market, including folding bikes, was shrinking (not collapsing, by the way, that's you reading things into it what others have said), and several similar comments were made elsewhere, and that's why I asked. The big winners at present anyway, are the e-bikes, and presumably those ghastly two wheeled platform things. Your clearly is information is different.

That's why I asked what you thought. I didn't really need those positive publicity style comments you make, though they were not unexpected, just a sober assessment I could derive from them. A question for you, however, exactly what are those unique features again that you, and the Helix website, are fond of quoting? I only skimmed through the site, life being to short to do otherwise, and found perhaps some innovation, but not much more.

Your last paragraph makes interesting reading, by the way - you clearly know more about bicycle and Helix design than many of us do I have to say I don't find it an attractive bike, but that might be because of the designer preferring practicality over all.

As I've repeated often, I hope the Helix does do well. Any new bike is welcome in my view, folding or otherwise, though, to be honest, bikes are not going to save the planet.

Gibsonsean

Assuming your objections to ETRTO 507 are as laid out here boiling down to weight and limited tire choice:
https://www.bikeforums.net/20786577-post1553.html

I think in most cases the size of the wheels was decided by the target folded dimensions and the constraints of the folding approach. You imply that other manufacturers have selected ETRTO 406 as an inherently superior choice. I think they couldn't work out how to get the same fold (and other) characteristics with a larger tire and compromised to 406.

One of the beauties of the Helix is that it maximises the size of the wheel whilst retaining the advantages of other folders with smaller wheels.

Folders are all about compromises between multiple factors. Hence the diversity of types and styles. Helix moves the dial on where those trade-offs can converge.

The limited tire choice is a bummer, but a price i am willing to pay.

The added weight is offset and overall bike weight is competitive with alternatives in the market so no disadvantage there.

The advantages of a Brompton as a comuter bike over any other equally rideable folder are a neat and integral fold (no disassembly) for convenience and speed of folding unfolding and a folded size which is conducive to stowing on public transport.

Brompton 585mm high x 565mm long x 270mm wide
(23" x 22.2" x 10.6")."
Hummingbird 585mm high x 1160mm long x 190mm wide / 23" x 45.8" x 7.4"
Birdy 800 x 620 x 340 mmHelix 23" x 27" x 10"
Helix is only 5 inches longer than the Brompton despite the larger wheels and foldless main frame, unlike most competitors, well within the stowable zone. It also looks super slick to fold/unfold.

Which ones? At the same time as having all the other advantages?

Agree on the marketing BS.

The Hummingbird is of course much lighter at closer to 6kg, but doesn't fold anywhere near as compact.

It is lighter than an equivalently specced/priced Brompton, despite those big, heavy wheels you seem to hate.

Well we don't know that now do we? Sure it has no suspension, but comfort is relative and about much more than stiffness, tire hardness and suspension. There are lots of trade offs. It'll be interesting to see what the Helix ride is like, especially for a big lad like me. I would note that it has more trail than the Brompton, the bigger wheels should lessen chatter, the Ti should damp vibration, the angle of the Ti seatpost and low attachment point of the reat triangle should allow plenty of compliance, pedalling should feel quite direct with no buffer sag etc. All been discussed before. I am curious how the 165mm cranks will affect things.


The upshot is that Helix is not the smallest, lightest and safest or whatever marketing BS you are fixated on. It does however a unique balance of size, weight and usability which represent a distinctive sweetspot for me, and i suspect the market at large. Is it a 'paradigm shift'? Who cares. It is a superior design and, I hope, a superior bike, for my needs and preferences, to anything on the market currently.

That said, I do like the look of the new GoCycle GX (though a bit heavy) and have my eye on the Xiaomi m365 e-scooter for other use cases.

Ozonation

Well said.

linberl

Can somoene explain to me why, now that the bike is materializing, there are all these posts bashing it? Why not just wait for the real life reviews? Sorry, I just don't get putting out all the negative vapor over something that can now actually be given real use reviews. The bike isn't going to be ideal for everyone, I don't want 24" wheels on a folder, but I am sure it will completely fit the needs of some. Imo all folding bikes are niche products (evidenced by sales #), and if this fills a niche (I didn't even know existed) then that's great. The more folders the better. I completely understood all the negativity and snark when there wasn't a bike -- made this thread fascinating and fun, lol. It just seems misplaced now that the bike is delivering and it's possible to judge it on real merits. To that end - are there any reviews out there yet********** Can't wait to read 'em.

FolderBeholder

The innernets...don't try to make sense of 'em.

Seriously-I too would like to see some actual, real-world reviews, impressions (hands on I mean) and dare I say it....pictures?
The cloud of secrecy around this by it's builder still doesn't make sense to me then, now or later.
In other words these are finally materialized but none of the above from any corner of the web?

avole

Berlin, I'll not be buying a Helix, or even looking at one, assuming it becomes available here. Here means France, by the way, where Brompton's are rarish too, and the big cities now provide bikes and scooters for their population, thus neatly halving the commuter bike market. That also has the advantage that the bikes can suit the city and its biking facilities. To me, that is a forward-thinking move, and it isn't only in France. Therefore, my feeling would be that, as with my Brompton, there will not be as many folding bikes on the roads in the future. Is that Helix bashing? I don't think so. So, a limited market in Europe, and an expensive bike, much as for the Brompton. Smaller towns, yes, might have a chance, but the problem there is that, and I include myself amongst them, there aren't many who wouldn't prefer their own road bike where the ride to work is >= 20km. Hills will always be the problem for any cyclist, and therefore weight, plus also speed, so little chance there and, given I nearly shook my self to bits on an unmade grassy track today, small wheeled bikes without much tread = a strain on the local health services.

So, the bikes the Helix will be up against are other folding bikes, and usually the market is nowhere near as big outside the cities as it is within. Folders by definition are part of the urban transport solution, and are intended for shorter journeys than the average road bike. You don't get the ride, but you do get the fold, so you can jump in a tram if it's raining, hire a taxi if you have refreshed yourself after a hard day's work etc. You can do as many do and put them on trains, aircraft etc more easily than you can a rigid frame bike, though trains in many countries are well equipped enough to render folding bikes irrelevant.. I've seen folding bikes on the back of caravans and boats, although much less so than normal size bikes.

I use the Brompton every day, but the Bianchi for the more distant shops because it is a faster, and a more comfortable ride. That said, I wish I'd discovered the Brompton when I was doing short term contracts throughout Europe, because folding small is what they are good at, plus it easier to convince hotels they won't damage their rooms, and, of course, easier to find parking spaces. That worries me somewhat about the Helix. It is late to market, and - had I not been ill for a couple of weeks and thoroughly bored I would never have even looked at this bike forum - is not widely known.

I have no idea how many Helix need to be sold to reach break even point. Certainly the designer/founder had it right regarding the size fold as being critical, but I wonder about that wheel size. Yes, big wheels are better than small, especially for poor road surfaces, but 24" on a folding bike does seem on the larger side of neutral. Anyway, good luck to them. Hopefully the bike doesn't need the hyperbole it receives from people who haven't even see it here.

linberl

The secrecy doesn't bother me (during development) but I'm chomping at the bit to see real life reviews. OTOH, if I had just received one, I'm not sure I'd be online posting but rather I would be out riding and enjoying my long-awaited purchase, lol. It's not like early backers owe us anything. I will try to demonstrate some of the patience backers have had and wait for the reviews and pics, even if the anticipation is torture of sorts.

ladi

Well, there are again some critical reviews of the idea as there are also overly cheerful comments. That you're focusing on the negative might tell something about you.

Also I guess you're ignoring that MUCH of the discussion was not about if there COULD be a bike. But rather about whether the bike that already existed for the kickstarter could be made into a product. This is still very open. I'm also curious about first hand reviews of the first bikes. But I'm also curious and kind of sceptical about the long term viability of the idea. So certainly not surprised that there are big emotions in both directions here.

FolderBeholder

You make some good points.

Maybe someone in the (many) snow-impacted areas from Seattle to Boston isn't out riding and enjoying their new Helix bicycle purchase though.

Somebody's gotta know something!

LannyPots

Thought part of what's new is the robotic welding of titanium for mass bicycle manufacture? Fella came from automotive industry so would guess he has some knowledge of how this can impact production, pricing, etc. But I'm not an expert on bicycle manufacturing...

Ozonation

Nice to read some postings from forum members who appreciate that a real world review would be more helpful than endless speculation. Given that the first bikes are only just out the door as of... Sunday?... I wouldn't be surprised if the first reviews don't show up for another week. 1 to 5 days for delivery, the inevitable unboxing videos, first impressions, and then, assuming you live somewhere rideable and not snowed or iced in, some serious riding before any meaningful reviews come out from the first backers.

Why so much negativity? Who knows. Human nature? Far easier to critique than create. I mean, sure, you shouldn't go in with blinders on, and let's exhibit some due diligence but it's a bike... and it's not even your bike, or your company, or your money at stake if you didn't invest... keep it in context...

Let's be honest.. it's not like anybody on this forum NEEDS another folding bike. LOL But we all like better mousetraps. I love my Brompton - it's the smallest current reasonably riding folder around, great accessories, hip appeal. But I can't think of the number of times I wished it had larger wheels to smooth out the ride, or that it handled just a bit more like my larger bikes, and wait, is locking mechanism coming loose? and darn, had the pedal in the wrong place and I couldn't fold it up, blah blah blah. We all like our toys, and we want them now. And cheap. Good, fast, and inexpensive. Pick any two. IF the Helix works out as claimed, it will be one of the few times that all three might sort of come together, especially if you paid what is undoubtedly the below market KS price.

Gibsonsean

The bike will speak for itself in due time and it will sink or swim based on it's merits and the currents in the market. Why not speculate and discuss in the meantime? It is mostly entertaining, occassionally informative and fills the time until it is here. Could be longer than a week. What if none of the first few backers care to post?

Ozonation

Okay... I concede that a little drama is always entertaining. As long as we keep it civil.

Oh... I'm pretty sure it will be longer than a week for most reviews to come in... and some backers probably will never care to post or might not even be on this forum... but I'm sure there will be at least one person who will want bragging rights and will post right away! LOL It's all about me, right?

Gibsonsean

I don't buy the equivalence of the positive and the negative. I struggle to recall any unqualified positivity, yet so often the negativity seems unqualified and uninformed. Could just be my pre-disposition.

Ozonation

Huh... I have to agree. Sure there were positive comments, but the volume and tone of the criticisms and almost unbridled hostility seemed.. excessive at times.

Gibsonsean

How disappointing. I do enjoy a dance and i do so hate to be unmemorable.

I don't know Peter personally, but do use his given name - seems easier when I am talking about him or what he has said. I am an optimist (you should try it some time - it is more fun than pessimism, though i understand studies have shown pessimism to be a more successful strategy in life.). Don't see how that particularly qualifies me as the ideal target for your question.

As I said, i'm not an industry expert and can only go on light Googling. Please do share a link to the topic thread. The synopses i read (mostly from 2018) were all projecting ​​growth over the next 5 years or more but I have no idea how that split between traditional and e-bikes. I'm not sure it is even a zero sum question.
​
Sorry my response didn't give you whatever it is you needed, but my 'publicity style comments' happen to reflect my sober and considered assessment.

I think my posts historically have been fairly clear on what I consider to be Helix's USP. I don't rate it for innovation (though there is plenty to be found in it in my opinion) but for its unique balance of folded size, weight, utility and price, which hits a sweet spot for me.

Not sure I follow, but there is no special knowledge or insight. Just a bit of rational thought. Wrt the motor, the front is difficult because of the lefty fork and custom hub with connector for the rear wheel when folded. Mid-drive would require extensive rework to the main frame and a very narrow motor to fit between the wheels when folded. There are no impediments to the use of a rear hub motor that I can see. Wrt the battery, the options are integral (undesireable rotating mass, all at the back), rear rack/seat-post mounted (interferes with the folded size of the bike, all the load is at the back), front mounted (like the Brompton, balances the bike but still adds to the folded size of the bike/is an extra thing to carry) or as suggested, frame mounted (a narrow battery would fit well in the main frame triangle, keep the weight low and central, not interfere with the fold and fit well with the existing aesthetic).

In the age of hydroforming and smooth curves, it does look very utilitarian and industrial.​​​​​​​ It has grown on me though and there is a beauty to the intricacy, the attention to detail and the spirit of the design. Ultimately I care less about the look than the utility - still going to bling it up with some lovely Gilles Berthoud leather bits though

No one thing is going to save the planet (with the possible exception of Captain Marvel perhaps, or maybe AOC and the Green New Deal apparently) but every little helps.

Gibsonsean

As owner of a road bike, user of bike share schemes and luster-after of an e-scooter, I don't feel any less inclined to purchase a folding bike. They all have their merits and fit different use cases. I do think the Helix is likely to expand the envelop of when I would reach for the folder.

ladi

Well, I guess if you want to be positive, every critical question seems "unqualified". Both positions have been supported by arguments as well as unfounded emotions. And thinking about it rationally one has to agree that "Never works, way too cheap!" is equally "unqualified and uninformed" as "Great idea. Happy for you guys!".

I think I did not notice anything really negative here recently. But on the other side there were comments like this one:

linberl

Omg, this thread is amusing, lol. If it's not criticisms of the potential bike, or the behavior of the developer, then it is criticism of commenters or personal attitudes. Definitely the MOST entertaining thread at bikeforums.

Double0757

pastorbobnlnh 

Ozonation

Well, if you put it THAT way... the worst thing that could possibly happen is if the Helix is the best thing since sliced gluten free bread, Helix makes money hand over fist, and develops a new manufacturing process that can 3D print the bike at your local 7-11. What would people then gripe about?

Lalato

I refer you all back to my previous post. Some small part of me hopes the reviews are mixed just so we can continue this entertaining conversation. (Most of me hopes the backers get a great bike, but no denying the entertainment value here)

Joe Remi

It also would be nice if 75% of the country wasn't snowed or rained in right now. I don't expect any reviews for a while, it's COLD out there!

As for missing the market, my guess is yes. Every story I hear from insider bikey people is that ebikes are rolling over everything, and you better build one if you want to sell bikes. Helix is WAY behind on this curve. My opinion.