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Riding far versus fast

Old 11-29-20, 09:44 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
Interesting, but I'm not sure what I'm looking at. Was this a direct measurement of substrate utilization? I don't see data points on the graph so I wouldn't think so. It could be they measured gas exchange and then applied a model to correlate gas exchange to fat/CHO, but again no data points. Finally, did they simply apply a model to an assumed or measured threshold? That would be consistent with the smooth curve with no data points. If a model was involved, it raises the question of how accurate and accepted it is. The fact that whoever created this plot was sloppy with their axis labels doesn't help with their credibility. A reference would help.
Good points. Or as it were, I couldn't find a graph of what I wanted with good points on it. I found that one in a old forum, couldn't find the original. If you can find a better, I'd bookmark it. Someone on here used to post a B&W graph like this every time this subject come up, but I never could find their original. I can't remember who the poster was, not you I guess. It had smooth curves on it, too.

What the graph originators seem to have been ignoring is the calorie burn which is just a part of metabolism. Neither curve on the graph should start from zero, but why did they cut that off?. So yeah, the graph is indicative but maybe not accurate. Our normal 2000 calorie/day person burns mostly fat, but also some carbs in normal activity, so say 100 calories total per hour daytime. Fat burn then goes up to a max at 120w for this individual. For me, adding in carbs, 120w comes to around 425 calories/hr or so says TP for one of my roller rides, me not bothering with the calculation. The graph however shows ~525 calories total at 120w, and thus seems to include the BMR. So one data point doesn't seem to be too far off.
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Old 11-29-20, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by genejockey View Post

The calorie counting is key.
Not for everybody...I don't count how many calories I eat, I don't count how many calories I burn, I don't weigh my food, I don't keep track of any other data... I eat instinctively, some days more some days less and workout instinctively and I have never been overweight yet.
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Old 11-29-20, 12:38 PM
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I don't count calories, either. I just use the scale. Doesn't say what I want it to say? I change my behavior.
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Old 11-29-20, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
Not for everybody...
Which is why I couched my entire comment in terms of my own personal experience. The comment even begins with "My personal approach..."

I don't count how many calories I eat, I don't count how many calories I burn, I don't weigh my food, I don't keep track of any other data... I eat instinctively, some days more some days less and workout instinctively and I have never been overweight yet.
Then chose your grandparents well.

Lots of people are naturally slender - my Dad, and my older brother, for example. Dad ate whatever he wanted, and in good quantities. I never saw him do any exercise just to exercise, and his job was largely sedentary office work, but he was thin all his 100 year life. My older brother, similarly, has never watched calories. He used to exercise a lot - running, orienteering, etc, but since he stopped those he didn't gain weight and he eats well, too.

Me? I got different propensities. If I don't count calories, and just eat "instinctively", no matter how much I ride, I gain weight, or at best don't lose it.
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Old 11-29-20, 02:49 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by rm -rf View Post
A long exploring ride with a half dozen 300 foot climbs: 52 miles, 4:09 riding time, 12.5 mph with these hills, 2800 feet. 1402 kjoules.
About 340 calories per hour. Or 27 cal per mile.
That actually surprised me. Around 22 to 30 cal per mile is a good rule of thumb for many different rides. Lots of rides have hard, high wattage efforts, but often periods of easy pacing or coasting.
But I thought the full hard effort, shorter ride would be much higher.
Easier to go off average watts and time.

About 276 average watts an hour = 1mJ. Ride 3 hours at 276 watts and burn about 3mJ, or close to 3,000 calories an hour.

So yes, steady, high average power. That's the good stuff! 1 mJ an hour is a solid goal for some.
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Old 11-29-20, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by genejockey View Post

Me? I got different propensities. If I don't count calories, and just eat "instinctively", no matter how much I ride, I gain weight, or at best don't lose it.
I'm similar.

I don't count calories as that's heinously tedious and boring, but I do have to ensure I'm feeling hunger at various points in the day, or I'm inevitably eating too much and will gain weight.

So for my purposes, hunger off the bike = losing weight. Contrast that to hunger on the bike = bonking, which is no good at all.
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Old 11-29-20, 04:37 PM
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Others have posted good information.

Diet is much more important than exercise when losing weight.

You can burn body fat equally with short intense exercise or long less intense exercise, provided you use the same amount of energy.

Short intense exercise will result in larger muscle mass. You can see this if you compare weight lifters with marathon runners. Also if you compare cyclists in sprint events, with cyclists in endurance events.
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Old 11-29-20, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by alo View Post
Others have posted good information.

Diet is much more important than exercise when losing weight.

You can burn body fat equally with short intense exercise or long less intense exercise, provided you use the same amount of energy.

Short intense exercise will result in larger muscle mass. You can see this if you compare weight lifters with marathon runners. Also if you compare cyclists in sprint events, with cyclists in endurance events.
Cyclists in sprint events are known as weight-lifters who sometimes ride bikes. Sprint specialists in road racing aren't all that different looking, IOW no matter how you ride, it won't make you huge. I do some strength training to try to maintain muscle mass for general living and other sports.
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Old 11-29-20, 08:03 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Easier to go off average watts and time.

About 276 average watts an hour = 1mJ. Ride 3 hours at 276 watts and burn about 3mJ, or close to 3,000 calories an hour.

So yes, steady, high average power. That's the good stuff! 1 mJ an hour is a solid goal for some.
Rule of thumb is normally Cals = 3.6 * Avg Power. For your example at 276W you'd expect to burn about 994Cals. If you use Joules you need to multiply by about 4 to account for efficiency.
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Old 11-30-20, 02:26 AM
  #35  
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In some cases, when people who have not exercised for some time, begin exercising, they may not lose weight in the beginning. They may lose fat, but gain muscle mass. If you are one of those, keep it up. You will eventually lose more fat.
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Old 11-30-20, 03:51 AM
  #36  
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Maybe a different perspective on the matter: I don't think it is all that relevant what type of cycling burns more calories if you want to loose weight. As others have pointed out, exercise makes you eat more and you can easily compensate for all the calories burned, leading to no weight loss.

On the other hand, my experience is that what cycling does, or for that matter any type of exercise, is it will make it easier to stick to healthier nutrition rich foods that fill you up while keeping a calorie deficit.

The hard part is that no matter how intense you exercise, it then always requires a conscious effort to choose the right foods and most important to eat a bit less than what your appetite tells you. Unfortunately there is no way around it to loose weight, you will need to consistently eat a little bit less then you want to for quite a while. What exercise and the right choice of nutrition will do is make that a bit more tolerable.
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Old 11-30-20, 05:22 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by gregf83 View Post
Rule of thumb is normally Cals = 3.6 * Avg Power. For your example at 276W you'd expect to burn about 994Cals. If you use Joules you need to multiply by about 4 to account for efficiency.
Rule of thumb is 1 kJ = 1 calorie. 276 average watts = 1 mJ an hour.

1 mJ an hour = 1,000 calories.

Zero reason to make it any more complicated than that. 6 calories = 1.5 grams of sugar. Not consequential in the least.
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Old 11-30-20, 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Rule of thumb is 1 kJ = 1 calorie. 276 average watts = 1 mJ an hour.

1 mJ an hour = 1,000 calories.

Zero reason to make it any more complicated than that. 6 calories = 1.5 grams of sugar. Not consequential in the least.
For completeness, it is not mJ, but MJ what you mean. Small m is used for milli and capital M is used for mega. And it is not calories but k calories, also written as kcal.

But yes, in general you can say that 1kJ of work amounts to 1 kcal of food. (for people that plug these numbers in some type of online converter and get different figures, you also have to consider that there is an additional factor of 4 to account for efficiency of body, i.e. you need to eat 4 times more energie than the energie that was needed to move the bike)

I normally think of it in terms of average power and multiply by 3.5 to get to kcal per hour, as I find it easier when I envision a certain ride to estimate average power than it is to estimate total kJ.
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Old 11-30-20, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Rule of thumb is 1 kJ = 1 calorie. 276 average watts = 1 mJ an hour.

1 mJ an hour = 1,000 calories.

Zero reason to make it any more complicated than that. 6 calories = 1.5 grams of sugar. Not consequential in the least.
Your formula is the same as mine. I was just correcting your original post which indicated 3000 Cals/hr.
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Old 11-30-20, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by gregf83 View Post
Your formula is the same as mine. I was just correcting your original post which indicated 3000 Cals/hr.
Eh, okay. I messed up the last part.

About 276 average watts an hour = 1mJ. Ride 3 hours at 276 watts and burn about 3mJ, or close to 3,000 calories an hour.
Ride 3 hours and burn 3 MJ, or close to 1,000 calories an hour.
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Old 11-30-20, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by mr_pedro View Post
For completeness, it is not mJ, but MJ what you mean. Small m is used for milli and capital M is used for mega. And it is not calories but k calories, also written as kcal.
Noted.
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Old 12-01-20, 01:21 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Noted.
Actually the calorie is a funny one. When speaking about food, it is common to call it a “calorie”, meaning a kilo calorie. To differentiate between the two, a food calorie can be written as Calorie with capital C.
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Old 12-02-20, 08:17 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by genejockey View Post
"The food here is inedible! And the portions are too small!"
Assign the worst cook in the house to cook and prepare your meals from now on! The first rule of weight lose is remove the temptation. Don't buy snacks, don't buy junk food, no soda, no ice cream, etc.

Even healthy foods in sufficient amounts will sabotage your weight-loss goals. Don't make them taste good. Cut back on the spices, flavoring, sauces, etc. Make them taste as bland and drab as possible.
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Old 12-03-20, 03:51 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by cubewheels View Post
Assign the worst cook in the house to cook and prepare your meals from now on! The first rule of weight lose is remove the temptation. Don't buy snacks, don't buy junk food, no soda, no ice cream, etc.

Even healthy foods in sufficient amounts will sabotage your weight-loss goals. Don't make them taste good. Cut back on the spices, flavoring, sauces, etc. Make them taste as bland and drab as possible.
Food and eating is meant to be enjoyable. Why torture yourself and eat things that taste like crap ?? ...It's very easy to loose weight and still enjoy eating delicious tasting foods.
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Old 12-03-20, 04:12 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
Food and eating is meant to be enjoyable. Why torture yourself and eat things that taste like crap ?? ...It's very easy to loose weight and still enjoy eating delicious tasting foods.
In part, making the food less enjoyable is exactly what you are doing when switching from junk food to tasty whole foods.
That will then give your natural appetite a chance to actually work and stop you over eating.
Trick is to let your taste adjust itself such that you start enjoying tasty whole foods.
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Old 12-03-20, 05:26 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
Food and eating is meant to be enjoyable. Why torture yourself and eat things that taste like crap ?? ...It's very easy to loose weight and still enjoy eating delicious tasting foods.
Hunger is more quickly relieved and with less amount if the food is drab.

Obviously, you can still eat lots of delicious food but then you must burn more calories in your workout. That may lead to longer workouts and if you don't have free time for long workouts, then drab meals is the answer!
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Old 12-03-20, 05:49 AM
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Originally Posted by cubewheels View Post
Hunger is more quickly relieved and with less amount if the food is drab.

Obviously, you can still eat lots of delicious food but then you must burn more calories in your workout. That may lead to longer workouts and if you don't have free time for long workouts, then drab meals is the answer!

Or you can, you know, just eat less of the good food.
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Old 12-03-20, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post

Or you can, you know, just eat less of the good food.
Not sure what you mean by "good food" here.

The healthiest foods I know, they do taste drab. I have relatives who ate nothing but healthy foods which is almost unpalatable and reached nearly 100 years of age ----- without modern medicine! They were very poor and consequently, can't afford hospital bills and meds and their solution was minimalist healthy foods. They never became overweight at any point.

Eat less of very tasty foods, you'll still be craving it. You'll need some real good discipline to control yourself especially when you're doing lots of cardio workouts. Won't work for everyone. Fill your fridge with nothing but healthy and drab foods, the temptation is much less.
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Old 12-03-20, 10:09 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by cubewheels View Post
Not sure what you mean by "good food" here.

The healthiest foods I know, they do taste drab. I have relatives who ate nothing but healthy foods which is almost unpalatable and reached nearly 100 years of age ----- without modern medicine! They were very poor and consequently, can't afford hospital bills and meds and their solution was minimalist healthy foods. They never became overweight at any point.

Eat less of very tasty foods, you'll still be craving it. You'll need some real good discipline to control yourself especially when you're doing lots of cardio workouts. Won't work for everyone. Fill your fridge with nothing but healthy and drab foods, the temptation is much less.
Your relatives didn't have much choice, because they were poor. If you're affluent, you have a choice, and it you choose boring food in an effort to curb your appetite, it's likely your appetite will revolt and you'll find yourself cheating more.

Better to learn how to make good food taste good, and eat enough of that, which will help you resist the donuts and onion rings and bacon cheeseburgers that are out there. I know that I'm far more likely to go out to get fast food if I don't have a healthy, tasty alternative. Every day you DON'T give in is a victory.
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Old 12-03-20, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by cubewheels View Post
Not sure what you mean by "good food" here.

The healthiest foods I know, they do taste drab. I have relatives who ate nothing but healthy foods which is almost unpalatable and reached nearly 100 years of age ----- without modern medicine! They were very poor and consequently, can't afford hospital bills and meds and their solution was minimalist healthy foods. They never became overweight at any point.

Eat less of very tasty foods, you'll still be craving it. You'll need some real good discipline to control yourself especially when you're doing lots of cardio workouts. Won't work for everyone. Fill your fridge with nothing but healthy and drab foods, the temptation is much less.
I mean enjoyable food. Food you like to eat.

Your advice, as usual, is extreme and unrealistic because it's based on entirely different contexts.
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