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3 hr ride without drinking nor eating safe?

Old 12-03-20, 07:37 AM
  #26  
pdlamb
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Originally Posted by impolexg View Post
There is a ton of misinformation about hydration. Drinking before you feel thirsty is how you get hyponatremia and it is how beginning marathon racers die. I grew up with these Gatorade-Marketing-Myths and it definitely did me more harm than good.

I'm not saying there aren't extremes where you need or want tons of water. I once had to race daylight carrying a loaded pack out of a desert canyon in the summer. Luckily there were pools of water from a thunderstorm. I drank at least a gallon an hour for at least the last 3 hours. Pouring sweat and drank water as fast as it would go down, like drinking a liter in 5 seconds. No doubt I was thirsty and the water sure felt great to drink.
An awful lot depends on where you're exercising and what the weather is at that location. Drinking before I'm thirsty is the only way I'm going to get through an all day ride that starts around 70F and peaks around 90-100F with 100-50% RH without problems. BTW, assuming I don't start such a ride low on water and salt, I find I don't need a lot of supplemental electrolytes over the course of the ride, and most of that can be ingested in food. As I noted, YMMV.

You must have a Wonder Gut to drink three gallons over three hours. My gut can't exceed more than about a quart per hour without triggering dump syndrome.
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Old 12-03-20, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by impolexg View Post
There is a ton of misinformation about hydration. Drinking before you feel thirsty is how you get hyponatremia and it is how beginning marathon racers die. I grew up with these Gatorade-Marketing-Myths and it definitely did me more harm than good.

I'm not saying there aren't extremes where you need or want tons of water. I once had to race daylight carrying a loaded pack out of a desert canyon in the summer. Luckily there were pools of water from a thunderstorm. I drank at least a gallon an hour for at least the last 3 hours. Pouring sweat and drank water as fast as it would go down, like drinking a liter in 5 seconds. No doubt I was thirsty and the water sure felt great to drink.

If you can possibly read Waterlogged you might start to think differently about hydration. The book is a collection of sports science papers. A ton of interesting data and some really great stories about how difficult it is to actually die of dehydration. Death requires a few days where you look just like a smelly piece of old bacon. Look at current marathon hydration guides:

Marathon Race-Day Nutrition and Hydration | Runner's World

As far as I know the current consensus is that cramps are caused by muscle fatigue. There was a theory in the 1850s among cornish coal miners that dehydration or lack of salt caused cramps but no experiment has borne that out. I'd love if you could point to any science about it. Some people report that pickle juice works to reduce cramps but consensus today is that is just placebo effect. The thing that scientists want is a reason that something works.

I do mtb races that last from 6 to 10 hours. I'm gorging on food the entire time and there's no way I can keep up with my output so I'm famished when I finish. Water intake is simply based on thirst and it is quite easy to drink too much even on an mtb, but I carry water and when I'm thirsty I drink and I really don't like running out of water. But that is a race and I'm going hard.

The other thing... you can actually habituate yourself to operating with less water. Within reason there are literally no consequences, the human body is an amazing heat adapted performance machine. For example if you're doing a full day climb in the desert you can't possibly bring as much water as you want so you learn to operate without. It is something that actually works and as a bonus you aren't dragging 40 pounds of water up the cliff with you.

If anything I've said is wrong I'd love for anyone to point it out. I'd love to hear if the papers in 'waterlogged' have been discredited.
First of all, thank you for providing a link to your info source. I will check it out.

That being said, I find your opening statement about hyponatremia and how beginning marathon racers die to be quite suspect. I'm not discountng the seriousness of hyponatremia nor the fact that overhydration can have consequences. I don't think anyone (including me) is advocating for excessive hydration. I agree that 3 gallons of fluid in 3 hours is excessive and ill-advised. What I (and others) are in full support of is smart, consistent hydration over the course of your ride.
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Old 12-03-20, 08:56 AM
  #28  
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A lot of times I read articles on hyponatremia that get so wrapped up in making the point how serious hyponatremia is that they fail to tell us comparative data to hypernatremia. IE. They talk about how many runners drank too much but don't say how many didn't drink enough.

2003 Boston Marathon. Of 140 runners experiencing issues, 35 tested as hypernatremic, while only 9 tested as hyponatremic

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15679427/
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Old 12-03-20, 11:43 AM
  #29  
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So... I'm not a dr. I'm some internet stooge. An 'armchair expert'. Get your info from someone other than me! At the least I hope you guys might take the time to find other sources for what I'm saying.

wolfchild Listen to your body: exactly. It doesn't hurt to know the what and why but definitely I think the body knows best.

First: Iride01 Certainly hyper is more common but hypo is more dangerous. Read the wikipedia articles that compare the two. The reason you see all the warnings about hyponatremia is because it is difficult and dangerous to treat. There is no quick fix. Waterlogged has the example of "How many people died of dehydration running marathons in the past year? vs how many died of overhydration. Basically for every year the answer is nobody dies of dehydration, and its 6-8 from overhydration, or at least it was when book was written. These are organized events with medical tents. Hypernatremia you can basically drink water and eat a candy bar, or if severe you can put patient on dextrose drip. Unlike hyponatremia the 'hyper' treatment won't put patient into shock or kill them. Unless you've got some other medical condition, its pretty difficult to die in a day from dehydration.

Second: pdlamb You don't need to drink before you are thirsty because you can instantly manage your thirst by drinking. Thirst is the incredibly well evolved feeling you get when you should drink. If you pre-drink to avoid the feeling of thirst youre at risk of overhydrating. I will pre-drink as much as possible if I know I'll be going without water for too long (like doing something weight constrained like a rock climb), but for a bike ride pre-drinking is not necessary because I will carry enough.

Generally: the reason dehydration isn't so dangerous is because your body is incredibly good at absorbing fluids when it wants them. My 1 gallon/hour case I had no issue sucking in that fluid and I was raining sweat, I drank because I absolutely craved more water. Not limited by my gut the water goes straight through stomach wall and into the thirsty blood. Unlike calorie deficit where you are limited by your gut (my personal limit seems to be about 450 calories/hour), water is absorbed incredibly quickly.

For long events you should be peeing and it should not be clear. I hear 'lemonade' is the recommended color.

FWIW: I do not like being thirsty and ride almost exclusively with a 3L hydration bladder. Water is there the moment I want it without reaching. I generally fill it with 1.5L for a hard 2 hour mtb ride and have > 1/2 liter left. For races I put sugar (tailwind) in the water and get ~1/2 my calories from it. I don't try to get all my calories from water because I feel like I need the option to manage thirst and hunger independently.

PPS: There's a terrific story in waterlogged about an insane 1800's experiment to determine what happens when you don't get enough salt. As you'd expect we are incredibly well evolved to manage our salt levels. You know how you know that you need salt? Its exactly the same as water: you get an all-encompassing craving for... salt.
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Old 12-03-20, 11:56 AM
  #30  
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To the OP's question - 3 hour rides without eating or drinking: I do it fairly often in cooler weather. I do 50 mile out and back on my fix gear and simply forget. Drawback is that I pay afterwards. How much depends on how hard I rode and the heat. If I push it too hard without drinking enough, I get home in a state where I cannot process food and am useless to do anything. Obviously bad. But a medium paced three hours on a 50F day, no big deal (assuming I have been riding and am in good form).

I eat and drink more on the geared bikes because I can easily and safely on hills. Getting a drink down going up a hard hill is tough fixed and there is loss of momentum and my stomach doesn't process much going that hard, Fast downhill - no!
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Old 12-03-20, 03:12 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by impolexg View Post
Certainly hyper is more common but hypo is more dangerous. Read the wikipedia articles that compare the two. The reason you see all the warnings about hyponatremia is because it is difficult and dangerous to treat. There is no quick fix. Waterlogged has the example of "How many people died of dehydration running marathons in the past year? vs how many died of overhydration. Basically for every year the answer is nobody dies of dehydration, and its 6-8 from overhydration
The overwhelming cause of death for marathon runners is cardiac failure or heart attack. Runners do die from hypernatremia. However it's usually listed as sun stroke. I wonder how many of those heart attacks and cardiac failures also were hypernatremic at the time. It's long been my belief that dehydration makes is harder on your heart to pump blood, whether there is an electrolyte imbalance or not.

Regardless, why encourage anyone to not take hydration with them? The way some people talk, I really feel they have confused their perception of thirst and instead feel it's hunger. Might be the replenishment of carbs from what they eat and getting an energy boost reinforces that mistaken sense.

When we hear about a death from hyponatremia, we don't usually get the backstory on it. How much water was consumed? Was there some other underlying cause of the imbalance? I don't know, but 3 bottles of water in three hours are unlikely to cause an issue for anyone of normal health.
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Old 12-04-20, 04:39 AM
  #32  
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I've heard anecdotes about hydration -- too much, too little -- since the 1970s when I got into amateur boxing, and later in the military. There's rarely any data to back up the extremes of assertions on either side -- no lab tests, no autopsy results, just anecdotes muddied by retellings.

During years of working in health care, mostly in the military, including tissue bank for harvesting donor organs and tissue, we encountered only one patient who died from drinking too much water. She was mentally ill and according to the autopsy and reports from family she drank an incredible amount of water over a two or three day period.

Our patients included folks with kidney failure, mostly on dialysis, and fluid regulation was a major challenge. Many of them came in heavy with fluid retention. None of them died just from drinking too much water. It was always a combination of other factors.

In the 1970s, and even later, many trainers for boxers, football players and other sports told participants not to drink during an event, or not to drink too much before or after. They made up reasons: it'll give you cramps; it'll toughen you up.

Mostly it made some kids dead, or very sick from dehydration. It took years and several deaths of high school football players from dehydration during two-a-days in late summer, before there was a statewide effort to re-educate misguided coaches.

One of my boxing coaches said to just dab water on your wrists. Like, what are we, Scarlett O'Hara, trying to fend off a case of the vapors?

As a Navy Hospital Corpsman I was assigned to the Marines and spent a lot of time on field exercises with the Marines. I enjoyed it. Good excuse for getting out of the office. One of the older senior Corpsmen was still advising us to avoid drinking during 10 mile marches with full packs. Idiot. We mostly ignored him. And I never heard of any fellow servicemen having problems from drinking too much water. Too much beer and booze, yup, very common. Water, no. Dehydration, yes, definitely, very often. I've read a report claiming several active duty military fellows suffered hyponatremia but, again, no data, no specifics, nothing to even confirm it was true.

To this day most boxing coaches still discourage boxers from drinking water between rounds, so most of them just rinse and spit. That stupid practice helped ensure Jack Johnson faltered against Jess Willard in a match in Cuba that Johnson was supposed to lose. Johnson was handily outpointing Willard for many rounds, but gradually the Cuban heat, dehydration, age and indifferent conditioning wore him down. And, yeah, Johnson was legitimately knocked out by Willard. It's easy to see in the better quality videos.

Same with Sugar Ray Robinson against light heavyweight Joey Maxim. The fight was closer than some folks claimed but Robinson did appear to have an edge. But the heat and dehydration wore him down and he was stopped for the only time in his career.

Most fighters can adapt to drinking modestly between rounds and no suffer cramps from body shots. Best time to figure out that stuff is in training. But it's hard to overcome bad old training practices.

A rare and controversial exception was the "bottle controversy" during the first bout between Aaron Pryor and Alexis Arguello. Between the 13th and 14th rounds the notoriously dirty trainer/cornerman Panama Lewis insisted on a "special bottle" of liquid, which Pryor gulped down. Sure didn't cause him any problems. It might have caused problems for Arguello. Rumors abound about the contents, including cocaine since Pryor was known to use cocaine. But coke can't be metabolized quickly or efficiently through ingestion. Theories range from placebo to tea to asthma/allergy medication -- the latter is possible since ephedrine can be metabolized fairly quickly, but not instantaneously. If that was the goal it would have been administered around the 10th round of a 15 round bout.

But, as usual, I digress.

The only times I've suffered cramps during bike rides were on humid overcast days in the 60s when I didn't feel thirsty and wound up with stomach cramps. Happened right after a time trial in the 1970s, and again a couple of years ago on a hard training ride. Drinking water with electrolytes relieved the cramps quickly. So now I carry at least one bottle with electrolytes every ride and drink, regardless of temperature or whether I feel thirsty.

In August on the hottest day of the year I attempted a solo century. I carried two 24 oz bottles and a 3L hydration backpack. By midday the temperature was over 110F, well above the forecast, so I bailed out after 50 miles and headed home. I had two flat tires and that was the worst part of the ride. I went through more water during those tire changes than any other time.

On a typical winter training ride of 20-30 miles I usually drink only half of a 24 oz bottle. I should probably drink more.

Generally speaking if you're reasonably healthy, physically and mentally, eat a healthy diet, and don't have any unusual physical issues that can affect fluid retention, metabolism, etc., just drink when you're thirsty and stop when you're satisfied.
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Old 12-04-20, 06:33 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by impolexg View Post
So... I'm not a dr. I'm some internet stooge. An 'armchair expert'. Get your info from someone other than me! At the least I hope you guys might take the time to find other sources for what I'm saying.

Generally: the reason dehydration isn't so dangerous is because your body is incredibly good at absorbing fluids when it wants them. My 1 gallon/hour case I had no issue sucking in that fluid and I was raining sweat, I drank because I absolutely craved more water. Not limited by my gut the water goes straight through stomach wall and into the thirsty blood. Unlike calorie deficit where you are limited by your gut (my personal limit seems to be about 450 calories/hour), water is absorbed incredibly quickly.

For long events you should be peeing and it should not be clear. I hear 'lemonade' is the recommended color.
impolexg : I definitely agree that folks should be getting info from someone other than yourself. You seem to be advocating for a very irresponsible (and quite frankly dangerous) hydration protocol, which goes something like this... "deprive yourself of fluids until you are so thirsty you need to drink a gallon per hour to try and catch up". HUH??? I'm exaggerating a bit, but not by much. Hydration is not rocket science and there's no reason to make it more complicated (ir scary) than it is. Simply take in fluids at a steady rate over the duration of your effort to make sure you're replacing what you're losing. You'll need more when it's hot, less in cooler temperatures, but you need to hydrate long before you reach the point of needing to gulp down a gallon.
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Old 12-04-20, 06:37 AM
  #34  
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CONDITIONS, both physical and environmental should determine what you bring.

50 miles without water or food was once not an issue when conditions were favorable but now as a 70yo with cancer, 1/2 a thyroid, some blood abnormalities, plenty of arthritis ... have altered my riding and nutrition habits. Be happy you can ride 3hrs without replenishment and hoping you can continue for a long time.
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Old 12-04-20, 10:16 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by impolexg View Post
So... I'm not a dr. I'm some internet stooge. An 'armchair expert'. Get your info from someone other than me! At the least I hope you guys might take the time to find other sources for what I'm saying.
The words are yours. I've written about what I've experienced.

Second: pdlamb You don't need to drink before you are thirsty because you can instantly manage your thirst by drinking. Thirst is the incredibly well evolved feeling you get when you should drink. If you pre-drink to avoid the feeling of thirst youre at risk of overhydrating. I will pre-drink as much as possible if I know I'll be going without water for too long (like doing something weight constrained like a rock climb), but for a bike ride pre-drinking is not necessary because I will carry enough.

Generally: the reason dehydration isn't so dangerous is because your body is incredibly good at absorbing fluids when it wants them. My 1 gallon/hour case I had no issue sucking in that fluid and I was raining sweat, I drank because I absolutely craved more water. Not limited by my gut the water goes straight through stomach wall and into the thirsty blood. Unlike calorie deficit where you are limited by your gut (my personal limit seems to be about 450 calories/hour), water is absorbed incredibly quickly.
I experience "dumping syndrome" if I drink much more than a quart an hour. (Google it.) I can sweat twice that (as measured by weighing myself before and after rides, and accounting for what I drank). If I don't feel thirsty for the first hour, which is normal, I'm playing catch-up -- given my sweat rate, that means I'm in a hole and falling further behind as a summer ride goes on.

FWIW: I do not like being thirsty and ride almost exclusively with a 3L hydration bladder. Water is there the moment I want it without reaching. I generally fill it with 1.5L for a hard 2 hour mtb ride and have > 1/2 liter left. For races I put sugar (tailwind) in the water and get ~1/2 my calories from it. I don't try to get all my calories from water because I feel like I need the option to manage thirst and hunger independently.
So is a 2 hour ride your longest?
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Old 12-04-20, 11:54 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
Regardless, why encourage anyone to not take hydration with them? The way some people talk, I really feel they have confused their perception of thirst and instead feel it's hunger. Might be the replenishment of carbs from what they eat and getting an energy boost reinforces that mistaken sense.
When have I ever said not to take hydration with you? The OP asked if it was reasonable to go 3 hours without food or water, and the answer is emphatically yes, it is reasonable under some circumstances. If you aren't fuelled properly when you start, if you go too hard, if its too hot for you, if you're unfit or have a medical issue then of course you'll need to take in food and water.

What I disagree with is telling healthy people to drink before they are thirsty. That is a harmful error that I grew up with. Its behavior that I have had to unlearn. Result is that I now travel farther, faster and much more comfortably on less water. I still prehydrate when I know I can't carry enough, but that is a pretty extreme case for me.

Originally Posted by pdlamb View Post
I experience "dumping syndrome" if I drink much more than a quart an hour. (Google it.) I can sweat twice that (as measured by weighing myself before and after rides, and accounting for what I drank). If I don't feel thirsty for the first hour, which is normal, I'm playing catch-up -- given my sweat rate, that means I'm in a hole and falling further behind as a summer ride goes on.
I don't doubt your experience but wouldn't you consider that a medical issue? What you are experiencing isn't normal.

Originally Posted by pdlamb View Post
So is a 2 hour ride your longest?
I've had a few mild cycling days where I've gone out lollygagging for 3 hours and not eaten or drank anything. 40-something miles on smooth pavement. I had food and water with me but it wasn't needed and I was surprised. I know I didn't drink because I never unlocked my camelback nozzle. Came home and had a picnic where I rehydrated with beer and nachos. No harm no foul. Was a nice day on a bicycle. I think one of those days where the cooling air meant I didn't sweat much.

Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
Generally speaking if you're reasonably healthy, physically and mentally, eat a healthy diet, and don't have any unusual physical issues that can affect fluid retention, metabolism, etc., just drink when you're thirsty and stop when you're satisfied.
Yes. This concisely covers what I believe.
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Old 12-04-20, 06:43 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by impolexg View Post
When have I ever said not to take hydration with you?.
I don't think any one else was trying to tell the OP they had to drink. Others were just relating what they did and whether they thought going for three hours without water available was a good thing.

In fact the only person that mentions consuming outrageous quantities of water is you.
Originally Posted by impolexg View Post
I'm not saying there aren't extremes where you need or want tons of water. I once had to race daylight carrying a loaded pack out of a desert canyon in the summer. Luckily there were pools of water from a thunderstorm. I drank at least a gallon an hour for at least the last 3 hours. Pouring sweat and drank water as fast as it would go down, like drinking a liter in 5 seconds. No doubt I was thirsty and the water sure felt great to drink..
Drinking huge amounts of water in a very short time even when you feel thirsty seems to be the thing that will result in hyponatremia. Maybe the soil contributed some electrolytes to the rain water for you and helped keep you from diluting your bodies necessary level of them.

A gallon in 1 hour is five times more than I've ever drank in one hour of riding on the hottest of days here. You've also several times made statements that make me think you believe you can drink all your fluids and stock up before you go out to exert yourself for several hours without drinking anything. Well you probably can, but again cramming your body full of water all at once again seems to be the thing hyponatremia needs. I might be wrong.

But even the link you posted suggest a person shouldn't loose more than 2 to 3 percent of body weight during a race. And suggests 6 to 7 ounces of fluid every 15 minutes. That's pretty much on par with the 24 ounces of fluid have been drinking in 50 minutes on my rides, though since the days have gotten cooler finally a bottle is lasting longer.

And also know that the OP is in the Philippines and their average daytime temps are currently higher than the temps that some people at BF say they stop riding at.
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Old 12-04-20, 06:57 PM
  #38  
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I'm not a sipper, but more a gulper. As such, I take a big gulp of water or two around every 20 minutes or so when it's really hot out. A litre lasts about 1- 1.5 hours for me (when really hot). I don't use a schedule, but drink as I feel I need to, and I think the 20 minutes between gulps is about accurate.
I'm not sure it's too much or too little, but it works for me - in addition to a soft bottle with water to use on my hat/neck to cool down.
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Old 12-04-20, 07:18 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
...And also know that the OP is in the Philippines and their average daytime temps are currently higher than the temps that some people at BF say they stop riding at.
Yup, very relevant to any discussion about hydration. The OP's environment is much tougher than mine in Texas, where summers are hot but usually dry in north central Texas.

Besides the usual conventional wisdom about athletic hydration and nutrition, there's also heat adaptation and other factors.

Many folks lose their appetites and even their thirst when they aren't heat-adapted, or adapted to exertion of any kind. Years ago I worked part time on a freight dock, which was easily as hard as any boxing training or crit race I've done. Maybe harder. I often lost my appetite and barely ate during our meager 15 minute lunch break. And while I was often thirsty we were not permitted to bring our own water canteens, and the foremen gave us the stink eye if we took a break for less than a minute to drink from the nearest water fountain. The only alternative to dehydration was to gulp down as much water as we could hold during official breaks.

Again, I saw guys getting dehydrated. I never saw one suddenly suffer from hyponatremia or hypervolemia. The former is by far the most common and most dangerous. The latter is so uncommon as to be negligible. Most people will vomit up excess water.
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Old 12-05-20, 01:13 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
Yup, very relevant to any discussion about hydration. The OP's environment is much tougher than mine in Texas, where summers are hot but usually dry in north central Texas.
I would think that in dry climate, you'll be losing water faster through sweat? I could be wrong since the dry wind blowing through you will be more effective in cooling so that better cooling makes less sweating and less water loss eventually.

Today, I went for 3 hr ride. Temperatures are 80 to 90F but the humidity seemed ~90% so it felt like 100F!!

Humidity was so intense that I am literally and quite visibly smoking! Producing a continuous stream of vapor cloud! It rained the night before so that was expected but still quite annoying. I felt uncomfortably hot the whole time despite heading out very early in the morning.

And indeed, I got hungry and thirsty and consumed the food and water I have.
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Old 12-05-20, 02:28 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
Drinking huge amounts of water in a very short time even when you feel thirsty seems to be the thing that will result in hyponatremia. Maybe the soil contributed some electrolytes to the rain water for you and helped keep you from diluting your bodies necessary level of them.


Well the water was scummy green, so quite nutritious... but I think I was saved from hyponatremia because I was also chomping crackers and gnawing on my trusty loaf of melty cheddar cheese. Man's gotta eat!

Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
A gallon in 1 hour is five times more than I've ever drank in one hour of riding on the hottest of days here. You've also several times made statements that make me think you believe you can drink all your fluids and stock up before you go out to exert yourself for several hours without drinking anything. Well you probably can, but again cramming your body full of water all at once again seems to be the thing hyponatremia needs. I might be wrong.
I'm advocating that people trust their thirst. I have been impressed by the range of extremes that I've personally experienced. My bulked up 25 year old self working hard in hot dry desert vs mild cycling exertion on a cool fall day. Totally different needs. It is healthy to say: Its hot and dry, I might need 2+ liter/hour" and then bring enough water and plan your refills. What is not healthy is to then try to drink to your water-plan without regard to thirst. That is my objection to the 'drink before you're thirsty' advice. It sounds unrealistic and dumb that anyone would do that but it is how I see actual people getting actually sick.

Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
But even the link you posted suggest a person shouldn't lose more than 2 to 3 percent of body weight during a race. And suggests 6 to 7 ounces of fluid every 15 minutes.
That is body weight loss after hydrating, meaning its not a huge problem for people to lose that much water weight during a marathon. The elite marathoners lose more - apparently losing the weight gives them a speed advantage. That is not anything I'd try to do on purpose.

For my 185lb mass 3% water loss is 5.5lb, call it 5 pints. So even after taking in ~1qt/hour it would apparently be acceptable for me to be down more than a 1/2 gallon in 2 hours.

Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
That's pretty much on par with the 24 ounces of fluid have been drinking in 50 minutes on my rides, though since the days have gotten cooler finally a bottle is lasting longer.
Wait... didn't you say above that 1 gallon/hour is 5x more than youve ever consumed? And now you're saying you drink 1.5 quarts in 50 minutes. I blame the metric system. Anyway. I think we're on the same page. During my typical 5-9 hour summer mtb races I'll consume a bit over 1 liter/hour. I am going slow and not using matches. My consumption varies from hour to hour but that is the rate I plan for. For a cold event I'll use less, for a really hot and exposed event I'll use more. I find calorie is a bigger problem for me because I can't so quickly make up a calorie deficit.

Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
And also know that the OP is in the Philippines and their average daytime temps are currently higher than the temps that some people at BF say they stop riding at.
My first few days are hell but I seem to operate on less water once adapted to humid areas. Part of that adaptation is dialing my efforts way back. Decades ago I spent a bit less than a month living and hiking in the woods in the ache province of sumatra. Hot and humid and very steep. 40lb pack and getting by just fine on 6 liters in a full day. I can't let myself overheat so save energy and move slowly. The very fit and habituated locals took in even less. Then I got a painful dysentery and my water needs skyrocketed...
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Old 12-06-20, 07:17 AM
  #42  
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I regularly do 3-5 hours without food. In fact, I never eat on a bike or stop to eat solo. During fall/winter I don't need water for 3 hr rides, but a social coffee break is fine. Been doing it since 1990; I'd say its safe. I generally don't care about food and the more I ride the less hungry I get.
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Old 12-06-20, 09:05 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by impolexg View Post


I'm advocating that people trust their thirst. I have been impressed by the range of extremes that I've personally experienced. My bulked up 25 year old self working hard in hot dry desert vs mild cycling exertion on a cool fall day. Totally different needs. It is healthy to say: Its hot and dry, I might need 2+ liter/hour" and then bring enough water and plan your refills. What is not healthy is to then try to drink to your water-plan without regard to thirst. That is my objection to the 'drink before you're thirsty' advice. It sounds unrealistic and dumb that anyone would do that but it is how I see actual people getting actually sick.
impolexg : You are advocating for a very bad plan.

Originally Posted by DorkDisk View Post
I regularly do 3-5 hours without food. In fact, I never eat on a bike or stop to eat solo. During fall/winter I don't need water for 3 hr rides, but a social coffee break is fine. Been doing it since 1990; I'd say its safe. I generally don't care about food and the more I ride the less hungry I get.
DorkDisk : I think you and impolexg would make perfect riding partners.

I firmly believe that anyone is fully entitled to do anything they want as long as it doesn't impact anyone else. If you want to ride in difficult conditions with a sub-optimal hydration and nutrition plan, go for it. However, publicly advocating for what is essentially "willing stupidity" is harmful to yourself and others. Just sayin'.
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Old 12-07-20, 11:42 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by DorkDisk View Post
I regularly do 3-5 hours without food. In fact, I never eat on a bike or stop to eat solo. During fall/winter I don't need water for 3 hr rides, but a social coffee break is fine. Been doing it since 1990; I'd say its safe. I generally don't care about food and the more I ride the less hungry I get.
This is only proportional to intensity/speed.

Suffice to say, you simply can't ride 3-5 hours if you're putting out much wattage; the caloric demands are simply too high. Even 200 watts is roughly 700 calories an hour.
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Old 12-07-20, 01:38 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by Cycletography View Post
impolexg : You are advocating for a very bad plan.



DorkDisk : I think you and impolexg would make perfect riding partners.

I firmly believe that anyone is fully entitled to do anything they want as long as it doesn't impact anyone else. If you want to ride in difficult conditions with a sub-optimal hydration and nutrition plan, go for it. However, publicly advocating for what is essentially "willing stupidity" is harmful to yourself and others. Just sayin'.
I strongly disagree with your opinion on a water plan. A good water plan replaces most, though usually not all, of the water and electrolytes lost during exercise. The amount of both varies widely depending on the exercise, temperature, and duration. So how do we know how much to drink. Simple: thirst. That's what it's for. I, and others of my riding buddies, have done 60 miles rides and only drunk 1/2 bottle of water, though I'm more usually on the side of 3/4 bottle minimum for that distance. Why so little? It was cool and we were properly dressed and didn't sweat much. We did not replace all of the water we lost, but that's not necessary or even necessarily a good idea. A little dehydration is good when riding and thirst can't kick in until we have lost a little of our excess water.

I've been drinking to thirst on long cold, cool, warm, and hot rides for over 20 years. It is definitely not a good idea to drink the same amount of water in all conditions. You'll be dehydrated in hot conditions and over-hydrated in cool. The reason evolution has bestowed the benefit of thirst on us is to tell us when and how much to drink. That's what it's for. Use it. That said, it is possible to be so low on electrolytes that thirst doesn't hit when it should. Animals seek out salt licks to keep their metabolisms in balance. Electrolytes stimulate thirst. We need to keep our electrolytes in balance also. The way you tell is really simple take electrolytes along with your water, enough so that one is a little thirsty. Then drink to thirst.

After the ride has started and one has been riding for a while, one gets a little thirsty and takes a drink. One repeats that. No need to drink more than enough to quench thirst. However, after the 2nd bottle, you're going to get low on electrolytes, so either take an appropriate amount or add to your water bottle. How do you know you've done it perfectly, being just thirsty enough? You'll pee about every 3 hours. More often than that and you're taking too many electrolytes. Less than that, you need to take more. On a hot day, if I don't have to pee after 3 hours, I drink and take electrolytes until I do pee. Then I know I'm good to continue.

Impolite exigency is correct. Drink to thirst. People have died from drinking when not thirsty. Med tent docs are finding more people there with hyponatremia. This water thing goes back and forth. When I started riding long distances, advice was to "drink before you're thirsty". Not anymore. When I was a teen, coaches were strongly advising us to never drink water during a game or run. Gives you cramps, don't you know? On my first solo century at 18 on a warm summer day, I drank 51 oz. of water in 6-1/2 hours. I was fine.

What's a long hot ride? 14 hours, max temp 105. 100 miles, 10,000', max temp 105. 250 miles, 13,000', max temp 95. What's a long cool ride? 75 miles, 36 and pouring rain. I drank different amounts of water per hour on each of those rides, and moreover drank different amounts of water per hour during them, depending on temp, exposure, and effort. IIRC I didn't take any electrolytes on the 75 mile ride. It should be obvious to everyone that there can be no water plan which works in all conditions, and especially in unforeseen conditions, which includes almost all truly long rides.

This is how it's done. This is how every successful long distance rider does it. The only tricky part is getting the electrolytes right, but it's quick to learn how much is enough. On that last point, no NOT attempt to replace lost electrolytes by some formula. You can't. Rather do it the way I say and drink to thirst.

Have a read: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart...sty-180950290/
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Old 12-07-20, 01:48 PM
  #46  
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Just leaving as an example of my own experience, not to be taken as a general recommendation!

I do most of my training inside, but I've done a couple of solo century rides this year. In both of those (averaging ~200w over 5hrs) I consumed about 1100 calories (roughly a gel an hour, and had SIS beta fuel in one of my bottles) and 2 bottles of water (one was on the 4th of July, so very much summer, I did not keel over and die). The key here being I was riding very much an endurance pace and deliberately not pushing myself into maintaining a wattage that would demand more nutritionally. Personally, I think there's degree of hyperbole on both sides of the feeding/hydration argument. I can certainly understanding the caution associated with eating/drinking to prevent dehydration/bonking, but at the same time, depending on the type of ride, I think recommendations tend to get a bit overblown for how undemanding some types of rides are.
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Old 12-07-20, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
This is only proportional to intensity/speed.

Suffice to say, you simply can't ride 3-5 hours if you're putting out much wattage; the caloric demands are simply too high. Even 200 watts is roughly 700 calories an hour.
Vary true. Riders who don't eat, don't produce many watts. They can get by entirely on fat burn. I try to replace about half my burn with a maximum of about 300 calories/hour on really hilly rides of maybe 4-5 hours. I know my burn by looking at my kj for other, similar rides. Thanks for the encouragement to get a PM! I did a 135', 1 Mj endurance ride a couple days ago. Drank about 1/4 bottle of sports drink near the end, had an apple afterward. I was having to force the watts the last 30' though, running out of energy.
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Old 12-07-20, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
I strongly disagree with your opinion on a water plan.

This is how it's done. This is how every successful long distance rider does it.
I appreciate your feedback and very frequently agree with your advice. On this specific issue I don't think we're too far apart, but you have (for some unknown reason to me) chosen to characterize my above comments as advocating for a "one size fits all" hydration plan that encourages over-hydration. This couldn't be farther from the truth.

To be clear, I have never advocated for drinking the same amount of fluids for all rides in all conditions. We all have different hydration needs based on the intensity and duration of our rides as well as the weather conditions. I drink much more on hot, humid days than I do on colder, less humid days, so we do agree on that.

However, I fail to understand why some on this thread (Carbonfiberboy included) immediately link hyponatremia with taking on fluids before you get thirsty. Drinking some water to get ahead of your thirst is a looooooooooooooooooong way from any threat of hyponatremia. Even if I were to drink a whole 750ml bottle before I got thirsty (which I don't) my risk of hypernatremia would be roughly... ZERO. I think I'll continue to take my chances by taking on some fluid and electrolytes in advance of my body's immediate need for them. I don't believe for a second that every successful long distance rider avoids taking on fluids ahead of thirst. That statement is simply ridiculous.
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Old 12-07-20, 03:56 PM
  #49  
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When I rode Seattle to Portland in one day last year (STP first timer) the weather was basically perfect, not too sunny, windy, or hot. I drank to thirst because it didn't feel like I was sweating too much. Near the end, I noticed that I probably could have eaten more, but it wasn't until I reached Portland and after showering that I realized how dehydrated I got. I literally spent 30 minutes at the bag pickup area drinking water instead of packing up for the bus (the volunteers there even joked with me when I finally headed out). Then on the ride back to Seattle, I regretted only filling one water bottle to take with me, agonizingly trying to nap until we thankfully stopped at a rest area so I could get more water.

Unless I'm carrying a big Camelbak with me, I fail to see how I could possibly drink too much on a bike ride. I don't think most people are making enough stops to refill their bottles on typical rides to overdrink. On a longer ride like a metric century, I take 2 bottles and stop once to refill one of them if there happens to be a water fountain on my return. Outside of a supported ride, I don't think access to water is so readily available that I'd ever fill up more often even if I wanted to.
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Old 12-07-20, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Cycletography View Post
I appreciate your feedback and very frequently agree with your advice. On this specific issue I don't think we're too far apart, but you have (for some unknown reason to me) chosen to characterize my above comments as advocating for a "one size fits all" hydration plan that encourages over-hydration. This couldn't be farther from the truth.

To be clear, I have never advocated for drinking the same amount of fluids for all rides in all conditions. We all have different hydration needs based on the intensity and duration of our rides as well as the weather conditions. I drink much more on hot, humid days than I do on colder, less humid days, so we do agree on that.

However, I fail to understand why some on this thread (Carbonfiberboy included) immediately link hyponatremia with taking on fluids before you get thirsty. Drinking some water to get ahead of your thirst is a looooooooooooooooooong way from any threat of hyponatremia. Even if I were to drink a whole 750ml bottle before I got thirsty (which I don't) my risk of hypernatremia would be roughly... ZERO. I think I'll continue to take my chances by taking on some fluid and electrolytes in advance of my body's immediate need for them. I don't believe for a second that every successful long distance rider avoids taking on fluids ahead of thirst. That statement is simply ridiculous.
The thing is, your comment was entirely negative. You offered nothing other than the strongest criticism of this individual's hydration, nor do you now present a strategy to compete with his, other than you'll drink a random amount of water at random times. Yup, you'll take your chances and you'll probably be fine as long as you don't ride outside your experience envelope. Too much shouting, not enough planning. I prefer not to take chances.
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