Carbonfiberboy 

I've ridden the one-day many times. My wife and I rode it on our tandem in 2014 with a high of 97°.and a team age 134. We used 70 oz. Camelbaks with liquid fuel in a liter bottle. We stopped 4 times. We stayed at the Longview stop for 50 minutes while we hydrated and hydrated until we peed. We felt fine, but hadn't peed. We weren't dehydrated at the finish. Our only problem was that it was so hot in the sun that we had trouble digesting food and so were a little slow and are not a strong tandem team anyway, but this year we were first to board the Seattle bus even though we ate and showered, etc.. A lot of folks had problems. We sat on the bus for over an hour, watching people come in before we had a load.

Your issue was that you may not have taken enough electrolytes to encourage more thirst and you probably didn't know to drink enough to pee every 3 hours. This isn't something someone told me. I learned it myself from doing many STPs, RAMRODs, and hot rides in eastern Washington. If you drank all that water without taking electrolytes along with it, a great deal of your discomfort was probably hyponatremia, which simply means that the sodium level in your blood was too low. It's easier to have that happen than most people think, simply by drinking a lot of water with no electrolytes, either in the water or as capsules. One can be both dehydrated and hyponatremic. The fact that you weren't thirsty enough to stay hydrated as you rode argues strongly for hyponatremia.

Hydration is more complicated than people think. There's not a simple answer, neither "drink before you're thirsty," nor "drink to thirst." It's rather "take enough electrolytes to create sufficient thirst and drink to that thirst so that you have to pee about every 3 hours." Practice doing that on long rides.

On another very hot ride, much hotter than that and in the full sun, it was impossible to keep up with hydration. One's stomach can only process a liter an hour or maybe a liter and a half with a lot of practice. It's easy to lose more that that, I realized what was happening when my HR wouldn't drop below 125 while standing still even though I'd been drinking several swallows every 5 minutes. Luckily I was near a water source, so I sat in the shade and drank water and took Endurolytes until my HR dropped to below 100, then continued the pass climb. That's the same thing which had happened to us in Longview, though not as bad as our HRs weren't that high. It was simply too hot to be able to drink enough water. After Longview, we stopped again in St. Helens, having drunk our whole Camelbaks that quickly.

surak

Sorry, but wrong. Had Nuun tabs or Nuun-water (might've been Gatorade, I don't remember the sponsor) in every other bottle, they had plenty at every rest stop. Ate real food, even the disgustingly salty noodles they had near the end. Peed about every other time my group stopped. Felt totally normal during the ride until the end, which is often the case if I don't consciously force myself to drink more than a bottle an hour. To me it's not any different from feeding: my body doesn't have a problem underfueling or underhydrating, until it does.

Cycletography

Delaying hydration to the point of having to consume massive amounts of water to try and catch up is essentially the "plan" for which the OP is advocating. That is simply stupid. And if calling it stupid is "negative" then I'm guilty. However, I'm just being honest... because it is stupid. That certainly doesn't equate to shouting - it's actually friendly advice - but if you want to interpret it that way that's up to you.

You also continue to twist my comments in ways that make no sense. Can you tell me where I said that folks should just drink random amounts of fluid with no planning? No, I don't think you can.

Cycletography

Here's some food for thought from British Cycling https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/kn...ydration-101-0

When to drink on the bike

The key point to remember is not to wait until you’re thirsty but to drink little and often right from the start of your ride. Aim to take 2-3 good sized gulps from your bottle every 10-15 minutes right from the moment you roll off. Just like eating on the bike, you’re not drinking for that moment but 10-20 miles down the road. Don’t forget your recovery drink at the end of a long ride either. No matter how careful you’ve been with your hydration, especially on a hot day, you’re likely to be dehydrated and, as well as providing the protein and carbohydrate to kick start your recovery, the fluids and electrolytes that a recovery drink provides are essential.

Perhaps impolexg and Carbonfiberboy can explain why British Cycling is also wrong about hydration? I'm sure they'll figure out a way to twist this info into a pretzel in order to make a point that shouldn't be made... probably more crap about hypernatremia... and a personal attack about shouting and negativity thrown in for good measure.

Cycletography

...and since Carbonfiberboy is all about results, here's something I found interesting. It's from a study about mild dehydration and cycling performance during 5km hill climbing. Spoiler alert! The mildly dehydrated cyclists did not perform better than those who were hydrated. Shocking, isn't it?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3867084/

Key Points

• Euhydrated athletes were faster during a 5-km, outdoor, hill-climbing course.
  
• Mild dehydration decreased physiologic function.
  
• Dehydration hindered cyclists' ability to maintain cycling cadence.
  
• Mild dehydration decreased cycling performance during a 5-km, outdoor, hill-climbing course, possibly due to thermoregulatory strain and perceived exertion.
  

Cycletography

...and here's another study that flies in the face of what impolexg and Carbonfiberboy are preaching.

https://scholarworks.uark.edu/cgi/vi...34&context=etd

"...full fluid replacement, even in a blinded manner, provided a performance advantage by maintaining better hydration state. This benefit seems to be associated with the lower thermoregulatory strain, due to lower core temperatures."

Cycletography

...and another. https://www.nata.org/sites/default/f...orAthletes.pdf

^This research study is not specific to cycling, but athletes in general. However, the conclusions are the same.

"Dehydration of 1% to 2% of body weight begins to compromise physiologic function and negatively influence performance. Dehydration of greater than 3% of body weight further disturbs physiologic function and increases an athlete’s risk of developing an exertional heat illness (ie, heat cramps, heat exhaustion, or heat stroke). This level of dehydration is common in sports; it can be elicited in just an hour of exercise or even more rapidly if the athlete enters the exercise session dehydrated."

Iride01

For the most part I agree with trust your thirst. But there also needs to be a certain degree of skepticism for your own senses if you find you are losing several pounds of body weight from start to finish and did not feel thirsty. My weight frequently is not even a full pound less at the completion of a ride than when I started. And I'm talking 3 hour rides in 95°F (35°C) temps. The times I do finish with a high disparity of weight change I frequently can expect leg cramps that evening.

Electrolytes probably play a part in the cramping too. But like water if a little is good then more in a mega dose isn't better. I put electrolytes in my drink for riding. However it is at a level that is less than most "sport" drinks contain. I put sport in quotes because I really don't think they are as concerned about sports as much as market share. So the balance of sugar and salt in them is more about taste now than way back when they were sports drinks and didn't taste as good.<cynicism> I'm old enough to have tasted Gatorade when it first came out. If you weren't working at a high level of effort, it tasted crappy. If you were working at a high level, it was just right. But now they've made it taste good for a casual drink.....for market share.



Your link didn't talk about weight loss after over-hydrating prior to an event.

IMO, if you try to stock up on water by drinking an excess of water prior to an event, then you are risking hyponatremia. If you lose a lot of body weight and then try to drink a lot of water to quickly restore it, you again risk hyponatremia.

As I said above, I don't lose very much if any body weight on long or short rides. I don't have cramps or tiredness after riding as others sometimes claim unless I too was negligent in hydrating during the activity. I'd think my steady hydration routine is a plus for avoiding the conditions that might leave me either hypernatremic or hyponatremic.

25 oz. is less than 8 tenths of a quart. Not 1.5 quarts. 1 quart is 32 fluid ounces. But yes there probably is some fisherman reality in my statement. A couple years ago when we had several weeks of over 100°F (38°C) weather, I was drinking a bottle every thirty minutes. That may have gotten me to about 1.5 quarts in 1 hour. But I'm not certain I was using 25 oz bottles then. I used to use 21 oz bottles. We only had a day or two over 95° this year, so I don't know how much more I would have used in hotter temps. Now that it is cooler I'm drinking less as expected. But still I drink whether it's a 20 mile ride or a longer ride. No sense trying to be "manly" and see how well I can fair when stranded without water.

Don't think you aren't unlike things I did when I was 25 yo. That was a long time ago for me. My road to where I am today in my thinking involved a much younger me doing very similar things to what you have described.

Also, keep this in the frame of friendly bar conversation. It's in my nature to disagree, if I didn't I'd never have a conversation with anyone! <grin>

Carbonfiberboy 

I seems I missed a series of your posts, sorry. One can find studies to prove almost anything in the nutrition field. JAMA did a meta-study of nutrition studies and found that (IIRC) ~75% of the researchers found what it was to their professional advantage to find. You should read this article which includes a study of meta-studies and I think well explains the issue with the study to which you refer and various historical recommendations: https://cyclingtips.com/2014/04/hydr...-is-it-really/

That article comports with my experience and the experience of my riding buddies. For me, 2% dehydration would be 3 lbs. lighter. People pay many thousands for a bike that's 3 pounds lighter, and here it is, for free and no downside. At the end of a long hot ride, I'm never particularly thirsty and don't drink any more than normal, so I doubt I get even that far down. If I'd been thirsty, I would have already quenched that thirst during the ride except for maybe the last 1/2 hour.

Carbonfiberboy 

There are three things wrong with your plan:
1) it does not take into account body size, personal sweat rate, and course temperature.
2) it provides no method of assessing hydration
3) it provides no method of assessing electrolyte levels.

Those 3 issues are the only issues with hydration on long rides.

Instead of complaining about the riding methods of others, you might try experimenting with them. You might like it. That's what I've done ever since I got on a bike (shudder) 69 years ago. I use Endurolyte capsules for electrolytes. They're convenient in a squeeze purse shoved up my shorts' leg and contain a known amount of various electrolytes. I'll take 1 or 2 if I'm not thirsty and should be, otherwise by the hour or bottle, according to my experience with current temperature and effort. They and plain water also fix sloshy stomach.

Anecdote: a riding buddy of mine, stronger than I am, would sometimes get away from me on brevets. I'd usually find him somewhere up the road, taking a rest. He'd ask me for some Endurolytes and he'd take as many as 6, right there, and be off again with me. He'd sweat so much that riders behind him would think it was raining.

Carbonfiberboy 

You might try Hammer's HEED. I used Cytomax for years and it rotted my teeth out. Got them fixed for a good chunk of the dentist's new Mercedes, switched to HEED. No tooth rot since. It has a very mild taste. Besides maltodextrin, it contains some xylitol, which is known to prevent tooth decay. Dentists hand out xylitol gum. I use it for short rides and mix it at a rate of 150 calories/24 oz. bottle.

Iride01

I did, and I still do.

I think it was a post of your's several years ago that got me to wonder about it and try it. Up until then I'd just been using a 40/60 to 60/40 crangrape/water mix. Maltodextrin, though it has it's opponents, seemed to be a better carb for my bottles during fast rides. It seems to boost me quicker and gives me a longer surge of energy between sips... or gulps.

What I like about Heed is that it has some electrolytes in it already, but not so much as other sports drinks. And being a powder I can adjust the amount of Calories on a per ride basis while still getting the amount of water I felt I needed. Also, I do supplement with enduralyte powder for times when the temps are really high. I keep some enduralyte tablets too, but seldom feel a need to use them since I seem to have found a magic potion and routine that works well for me...... at the moment.

Although the last batch of Heed I got seems to have undergone some formula changes. Maybe it's the sweetener that changed and now it is almost too syrupy tasting for me. But not so bad that I'll do anything but maybe change flavors. I'm thinking they were trying to appease others like my son that felt it was too astringent tasting and still uses GU. But IMO, their smoothing of the taste comes off more thick and leaves an after taste I don't care for.

Carbonfiberboy 

I've always used Lemon Lime. I bought the new giant container a couple months ago. Seems OK.

Cycletography

That's not my plan. The info provided is directly quoted from the British Cycling website (citation provided in prior post). You should direct your criticism towards the correct source rather than continuing to attack the messenger.

Carbonfiberboy 

Ah, sorry. I didn't catch that. When posters here quote their sources by cut and paste, it's usual to enclose that quote in a Quote box. That's what those little quotation marks in the menu are for. One highlights the pasted material and clicks on the quote mark thusly: Without that or actually enclosing the lines in quotation marks, there's no way to know.

Cycletography

You're the one who misread the post. I provided the citation at the very front of the post to make the source blatantly obvious. I even referenced Britich Cycling by name in the content of my post. And you Carbonfiberboy, you seem to be the only one who missed that. BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T READ!!!

So... rather than simply saying "Ah sorry, I didn't catch that" and leave it at that (which would have been the "adult" thing to do), you now choose to attack the format of how the post was presented.

Bless your little heart.

Carbonfiberboy 

Just trying to be helpful. I honestly thought there were two thoughts being presented: the British link, and separately, your personal plan. I guess if there's anyone interested after all that, we still could use the presentation of your personal hydration plan.

Cycletography

If that's helpful, I'd hate to see what your version of "not helpful" looks like.

And why are you so concerned about what I do for hydration on the bike? I've clearly stated that going on a 3-hr. ride with no hydration or nutrition is a bad idea (i.e. stupid). I've also advocated for consistent intake of fluids over the course of any ride and believe that "binge drinking" mid-ride in an attempt to correct a state of dehydration is a very bad idea (i.e. really stupid). Will it kill you? Probably not. That still doesn't make it OK, but if you or anyone else wants to implement that type of "plan" go for it. I'm certainly not stopping you.

As for the topic at hand, I think the info I posted from British Cycling is a pretty good general guide. There is also good info to be found in the other references I provided regarding recommended hydration as it relates to performance. Those aren't good enough for you? They are real research studies carried out by real research professionals. IMO that info is much more helpful than some anecdotal info I (or you for that matter) could provide. But I get the impression from your previuous posts on this thread that you just want to pontificate and criticize. Is it just not as much fun when I remove myself from the equation and put you up against British Cycling and credible research studies? I suspect not.

Carry on. I've said my piece and will now unsubscribe from this thread. Moving on to greener pastures.

Trakhak

Fifty years of racing and training, and I've only recently figured out how to get myself to drink (almost) enough water on a ride: as soon as I notice my saliva becoming slimy, I take a drink. It would probably make more sense to drink before that happens, but one step at a time.

cubewheels

My almost 3 hr ride, same route just became 1 hr 40 mins. Improved allocation of effort along the route and simply got better at squeezing between cars in rush hour traffic.

Surprisingly, I got home less fatigued even though the overall pace is signficantly higher. Perhaps, constantly stopping and accelerating in rush hour traffic as I did before increases energy expenditure even if it's the same route.

Richard Cranium

Worth repeating, your mileage {and nutrition} may vary. In fact - it will always vary.

One of the shortcomings of the Internet is the abundance of so much information. And the difficulty in divining applicable knowledge from so much easily accessible data.

I happened to ride three hours yesterday on about 10 ounces of water. But it was cool outside, I wasn't riding hard and had eaten well just before starting. I'm kind of happy about it because I don't ride as much as I used and am always pleased that I can get out and ride fifty without putting a foot down. (and without snacking or eating) And I'm 68...........

Any how, just remember the more cycling experiences you have - are the best basis for forming your personal cycling-nutrition-strategies.

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MinnMan

Maybe this point has already been made in this thread and i missed it.

3 hours is a long time to go without hydration and it will likely effect performance owing to cardiac drift. If the OP wears a HRM and didn't see a significant increase in HR at a steady effort, then I don't think the drinking matters, but if there was cardiac drift, then he'd have had a better ride by drinking.

Food during a 3 hour ride? Nice but not essential.

Het Volk

first of all - what are you trying to win? Because worrying about weight on a solo ride seems to be misguided.

secondly - I used to do three hour on an empty stomach rides as part of my training regimen to teach my body to use fat for energy. Your body can go without food. But dehydration and heat exhaustion is a danger and you should always bring water at the very least.

Finally - at the very least bring some cash in case you bonk and need to eat something to get energy to your system in order to get hone.

cubewheels

Ha! I did bring cash and even my long and heavy chain lock on a 6 hr ride! I also brought 3 bottles of water and 1.5 sandwich.

Ironically, that was an under-estimation. The ride included 2 hr continuous climb in 90 to 100F heat. Ran out of sandwich and had to go to the nearest fast food outlet where the little bit of cash and long chain lock came in handy.

I wasn't planning on stopping and eating but underestimated my supply of sandwich. At least I came prepared enough to be able to.

Although the 3 bottles of water, sandwich, powerbank, and the 2 kg chain lock might have contributed significantly to the 2hr climbing effort. The loaded bike weighed 45 lbs

Het Volk

Your body has within its fat stores enough calories to do a 3 hour ride without eating. Now, will it impact performance.....likely. But if it is just a training ride for some base miles, your not really concerned too much.

Hydration is something that can actually cause physiological damage to the point of putting you in the hospital.