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2021 Gravel Worlds vintage category

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2021 Gravel Worlds vintage category

Old 01-17-21, 08:16 PM
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2021 Gravel Worlds vintage category

So somehow I didn't know this was a thing and I've always been kinda "meh" on Gravel Worlds for some reason, but I just saw the vintage category and got on the wait list. I have two bikes that would qualify but not sure which I'd pick, I guess that's part of the allure!
Anybody done this race and category here before? I'm curious how stringent the rules are (and even what the full rule list is)? And for any advice/experience sharing.

https://www.gravel-worlds.com/race-day

First vintage category report: https://www.cxmagazine.com/greg-vaug...ekai-magnum-s7
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Old 01-18-21, 10:30 AM
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I'll probably turn this into my build question thread since no one cares about the actual race.

Question 1: when were the earliest aerobars made? I think they need to be pre-88. (Which begs the question, why do L'eroica type events cut off the bikes at 1988? Still learning and reading here..)
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Old 01-18-21, 10:47 AM
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IIRC it's semi-arbitrary but L'eroica considers the "modern style" bike to begin with aero brake levers, Look clipless pedals, and dual-control levers, which became a thing in the late 80s. I think L'Eroica Califrornia allows for vintage aero-brake hoods while the other ones require traditional brake levers.

I'm not sure about this but I *think* aero hoods started with Dura-Ace AX from the early 80s. This does mean quite a few higher-end early 80s bikes are technically banned unless the hoods are swapped out. (as stated above, California allows them, but you still need downtube shifters)

They also do allow "vintage style" new bikes, but they need to be built like an old bike with downtube levers/traditional brake cable routing/clips+straps.



( edit: i also like that the California rules explicitly state that the Exxon Graftek and Teledyne Titan are permitted )

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Old 01-18-21, 11:10 AM
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Huh, neat! I hope more rides/races start doing a vintage category. Seems fun. Even more interesting that it is full. I guess there are more of us than one might imagine.

It's interesting that they specify a steel frame. I believe L'eroica allows aluminum but only in the glued style of Vitus/Alan.

I, too, have wondered about the rules in these events. In my experience, a modern cassette and derailleur do a hell of a lot more for ease-of-use than indexing and aero brakes do! Yet they are currently glossed over or a "gray area" in most of the rules I've perused. What would happen, for example, if I show up on my '83 Trek, with toe clips and Simplex shifters and Mafac levers, but it's got a freehub and XTR rear mech? What if I buffed off the XTR logo and polished it silver?
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Old 01-18-21, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by scarlson View Post
I, too, have wondered about the rules in these events. In my experience, a modern cassette and derailleur do a hell of a lot more for ease-of-use than indexing and aero brakes do! Yet they are currently glossed over or a "gray area" in most of the rules I've perused. What would happen, for example, if I show up on my '83 Trek, with toe clips and Simplex shifters and Mafac levers, but it's got a freehub and XTR rear mech? What if I buffed off the XTR logo and polished it silver?
Well I think I have that answer, for this specific race, since they just emailed me back regarding some of my questions (especially tubeless )

"The vintage category would be period correct components across the board. Frame, wheels, etc. Shifters need to be downtube or bar-end shifters. No carbon components. And tubes for wheels."

So, the idea is to use everything period correct. While they may not notice, or care, about something like a silver long cage RD and freehub, I think it goes against the spirit. For example, 2019's winner used a Soma Hwy1 bar, which the only "vintage" thing about it is that it's 26.0mm and silver. But apparently that was OK and it's the bar I currently use too so I'll keep it most likely. However, I'll probably go for a triple setup, with a freewheel. Finding wheels will my biggest task.
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Old 01-18-21, 11:47 AM
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I think this is one of the more popular "retro-mod" rear derailleurs you can get - really, I think it might be the only one in it's category. It's basically just a rebadged and silvered-up Sunrace RD.

Rear Deraileur ? SunXCD - Bicycle Components

Not sure if they'd protest this one though, it's more for people wanting a older-style look on a new touring bike or something (or replacing an old hard-to-replace RD)
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Old 01-18-21, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by sheddle View Post
I think this is one of the more popular "retro-mod" rear derailleurs you can get - really, I think it might be the only one in it's category. It's basically just a rebadged and silvered-up Sunrace RD.
Yeah, I saw that one on a newer Alex Singer. They do look good. But there are so many decent slant-parallelogram silver polished derailleurs out there on the used market. Part of what I like about the idea of these vintage categories is that the equipment can be cheap and still decent.
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Old 01-18-21, 12:10 PM
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Yeah I'm not going for retro-mod, I'm going for retro. If I do this I wanna do it right, as much as possible. Obviously tires isn't really feasible but I think just about everything else should be.
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Old 01-18-21, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by shoota View Post
I'll probably turn this into my build question thread since no one cares about the actual race.

Question 1: when were the earliest aerobars made? I think they need to be pre-88. (Which begs the question, why do L'eroica type events cut off the bikes at 1988? Still learning and reading here..)

Italian Legend Bicycles has this from 1985 in their collection. But I am sure there are some older aero bars.
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Old 01-18-21, 01:03 PM
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I was gonna ask- do you mean aerobars as in like, tri-bars, or aero brake hoods?
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Old 01-18-21, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by sheddle View Post
I was gonna ask- do you mean aerobars as in like, tri-bars, or aero brake hoods?
Like clip on extensions a la Greg Lemond.
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Old 01-18-21, 01:50 PM
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I read about this category maybe before the '19 race or shortly after it with results? Been awhile and I'd forgotten the category exists.

Its a quirky and neat category, if everyone honors the intent.

I could see some hwy1 bars, aero brake levers, bar end shifters, and a nice 80s touring frame with a 3x drivetrain, multie bottle bosses, and clearance for a 35 or 38mm tire.
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Old 01-18-21, 01:57 PM
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Pre-'88 then? OK, the most modern rear derailleur (i.e. similar to what we have now) from pre-'88 is probably the Shimano Light Action L532, from '86, or the RD-MT60 from '87-'88 if you want to push it to the max. They're a bit heavy, but can handle a 12-34 freewheel, which you could get from Suntour, or use a Uniglide cassette from Shimano (HG not being out until like '89 I think). Easy and cheap! I'll set it up with Simplex retrofriction shifters and slay the competition.

Sorry if this is off-topic, you just provided me with the perfect excuse to do the research on this question, which I had been wondering about for a while now.
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Old 01-18-21, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by scarlson View Post
Pre-'88 then? OK, the most modern rear derailleur (i.e. similar to what we have now) from pre-'88 is probably the Shimano Light Action L532, from '86, or the RD-MT60 from '87-'88 if you want to push it to the max. They're a bit heavy, but can handle a 12-34 freewheel, which you could get from Suntour, or use a Uniglide cassette from Shimano (HG not being out until like '89 I think). Easy and cheap! I'll set it up with Simplex retrofriction shifters and slay the competition.

Sorry if this is off-topic, you just provided me with the perfect excuse to do the research on this question, which I had been wondering about for a while now.
This is exactly the kind of info I'm going to need. Looking up when each component was made is not a straightforward task. Like, was a 12-34 freewheel available pre-88? I sure as heck don't know, and don't know how to figure that out..
Your setup is pretty much what I was thinking.
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Old 01-18-21, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by shoota View Post
This is exactly the kind of info I'm going to need. Looking up when each component was made is not a straightforward task. Like, was a 12-34 freewheel available pre-88? I sure as heck don't know, and don't know how to figure that out..
Your setup is pretty much what I was thinking.
It's taken some finagling for me to figure it out! The Winner and Winner Pro were out by '85 according to St. Sheldon. These were available in 7-speed and could take cogs down to 12t and up to 38! Finding one may be hard. You might have to build it yourself out of a stockpile of Suntour cogs and freewheels.

But like I said, an UG cassette would also work. Those came out in like '80 with Dura Ace AX. With a little filing and grinding the inside of the cog, you can put new HG cogs on these and get however many speeds you want (however many will fit) with the exception of the smallest cog, which is threaded. It may be hard to find an unworn threaded small cog that locks it all in place.

For 650b, mate your hub to a Weinmann Alesa (easier to get) or Mavic (hard to get) 650b rim (or Pacenti Brevet, these look the part) and put on some big Pari-Moto tires, Mafac Raid brakes to clear it all, and you're off to the races!

If you want 700c, the options are more numerous. You can probably find a suitable 700c clincher racing wheelset already built. Pop this setup onto any nice quality touring frame, put on some Gravelking Slicks, and you'll have a decent gravelbike straight off.
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Old 01-19-21, 06:34 AM
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Cool thread, shoota. Great to see a C&V category at this race. Hopefully that continues to other events!

Originally Posted by scarlson View Post
But like I said, an UG cassette would also work. Those came out in like '80 with Dura Ace AX. With a little filing and grinding the inside of the cog, you can put new HG cogs on these and get however many speeds you want (however many will fit) with the exception of the smallest cog, which is threaded. It may be hard to find an unworn threaded small cog that locks it all in place.
I’ll add that if doing the HG on UG thing, at least for Dura Ace, you’ll more than likely want the two smallest cogs/sprockets. The first to thread onto the freehub and hold it all together, the second with integral spacer and splines long enough to get good purchase on the freehub splines. There are differences from Dura Ace to other UG freehubs (at least on 740X: smaller thread dia. to allow for smaller final sprocket), and I’m not sure what applies to the early AX. It’s been a couple years since I went through this with 740X stuff, and I’m only just starting my coffee, so all of the details aren’t at my fingertips presently...and may or may not be applicable outside 740X stuff. I’ll scrounge up a thread where this was discussed.

It’ll be less of a hassle to stick with freewheels and I assume that’s the way most will go, but this can still be a ‘fun’ exercise with some upsides. If you can scrounge up the parts. Either way, might as well add the info to the discussion.

Edit: p4, post 84. Appears 600AX may be okay, and the above info may only be applicable to the “newer” 740X series with necked down thread diameter. That’s what I used and focused my searches on when going through this exercise. As always, YMMV.

https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...nt-dirt-4.html

Looks like I may want to update that thread with the final build including a minor modification to fit a bit more rubber under the front caliper.

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Old 01-19-21, 07:19 AM
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Wouldn't this be perfect?


1987

I had my '90 MTB ready for the Eroica CA Nova Saturday ride last year. For the Gravel worlds, I would think anything found on this Bridgestone is within the spirit.
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Old 01-19-21, 07:36 AM
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Suntour BL, Cyclone, and Superbe RD all came in long cage models. Most of their FD's will shift a triple as well. The Shimano FD-6207 will shift a triple also. It's matching long cage RD, the RD-6207 can usually be found for cheap.

You can also swap the freehub body on a 126mm Shimano UG freehub and go from 6 to 7 HG in the back.

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Old 01-19-21, 09:59 AM
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My '85 Norco Magnum is pretty close to the linked articles's bike.

I'm not sure how the moustache bars align with period-correctness and the XCPro rd is skirting the '90s, but overall this is the kind of rig for a vintage gravel ride. Long wheelbase, standard sized tubing, 36 spoked wheels on singlewall rims for lightness. I ended up finding a better way to hold the front bag, The old stem-clamped racks work, but don't sit where I'm used to.
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Old 01-19-21, 11:23 AM
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Aw yeah, this is the kind of content I'm after! Loving it guys.

As for the bike - I have two options, each with their own pros and cons.

70s Windsor Profesional
Pros: Would make for a cool Italian build since it's Columbus SL and Campy dropouts, fits well, and has clearance for 35mm GravelKing SS's (with regular caliper brakes! Dia-Compes), stable racing geo, horizontal dropouts
Cons: Italian bb, caliper brakes that don't stop too well, would prefer 38s

1986 Schwinn Voyageur
Pros: Also Columbus tubing, already has some Campy parts installed, fits 38s, three bottle cages
Cons: Vertical dropouts, cantilever brakes don't quite line up to 700c wheels but could still be made to stop better than the Windsor probably, not race geo, it's my wife's

Both would need component updates, new wheels for sure. My ideal build would be rando bars, barcons, 1:1 (or very close) low ratio for the endless hills, 38mm semi slicks.

Things to figure out: shoes and clips (no clue what to do here), saddle (probably a nice vintage San Marco Regale (I think my butt is ok with those), and components.

Fun thread! Dreaming and planning is half the fun!
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Old 01-19-21, 06:10 PM
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Why is an Italian bottom bracket a problem?

Fresh pads should make the Windsor stop much better. Windsor was a basic copy of a Cinelli Super Corsa- very capable.

When I read mismatch of pad to rim... I read original was 27" wheels, now fitted with 700c... Danger.
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Old 01-19-21, 11:51 PM
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Where the actual rules for this event? I looked on the web page and could not find them. Other thing, is that the link to CX mag and the 2019 winner quotes him as saying he rode an 11 as his smallest cog. 11s might have been around in the 80s but I dont remember many.
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Old 01-20-21, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by repechage View Post
Why is an Italian bottom bracket a problem?

Fresh pads should make the Windsor stop much better. Windsor was a basic copy of a Cinelli Super Corsa- very capable.

When I read mismatch of pad to rim... I read original was 27" wheels, now fitted with 700c... Danger.
I'm just not as familiar with Italian BBs, especially when it comes square taper (this is true for English BBs too I guess).
I have brand new shimano pads, I'm going to try something a little softer, maybe those multi surface black and salmon Koolstops.
Yeah 27" to 700c, it works but it could be better.

Originally Posted by Mr. Spadoni View Post
Where the actual rules for this event? I looked on the web page and could not find them. Other thing, is that the link to CX mag and the 2019 winner quotes him as saying he rode an 11 as his smallest cog. 11s might have been around in the 80s but I dont remember many.
A small list of the vintage rules are on there, but it's not comprehensive, which is why I emailed them. Basically, don't try to get away with anything modern unless you absolutely have to. And the frame, wheels, non-aero levers, dt shifters, and toe clips are non-negotiable.
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Old 01-20-21, 10:15 AM
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I will dig around on the site more and see if I can find them. But based on what I have seen at CV events in the US and abroad, if you are trying to meet the period correct rules on the big stuff, like pedals, shifters, etc, you will be fine. Going 100% period correct is a very big task. Just think about tires. 70s or 80s 700c tires wider than about 25? They might have been there but pretty were pretty rare and hard to find. Stick to the big stuff and build a bike that will be you to the finish.
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Old 01-20-21, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Spadoni View Post
I will dig around on the site more and see if I can find them. But based on what I have seen at CV events in the US and abroad, if you are trying to meet the period correct rules on the big stuff, like pedals, shifters, etc, you will be fine. Going 100% period correct is a very big task. Just think about tires. 70s or 80s 700c tires wider than about 25? They might have been there but pretty were pretty rare and hard to find. Stick to the big stuff and build a bike that will be you to the finish.
Sorry, it's on the Bike Reg page. https://www.bikereg.com/gravel-worlds0

Re: tires - Exactly, hence the "unless you absolutely have to" part. They're not gonna care about tires, as long as they're tubed. Same for the saddle and handlebar too I think. No carbon anywhere though.
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