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Mystery frame. 50's? Nervex? England A&P? unusual serial number

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Mystery frame. 50's? Nervex? England A&P? unusual serial number

Old 07-08-11, 10:00 AM
  #26  
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As said above, Accles & Pollock "A" tubing, looks 40's, maybe 50's to me.
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Old 07-08-11, 07:54 PM
  #27  
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got a message from the seller in regards to what components were on the bike when he acquired it. i can't imagine it would help to identify it, but maybe.

"...The cranks were Chater lea or chater Lea style cottered cranks, 3 pin with a Baylis-wiley Bottom Bracket. THe Headset was a cool looking steel Brampton and the stem is Pivo. The Saddle was a Leather Lycett..."


do these bits (assuming they were original) make it more likely french vs english or vice-versa?

Edit: stupid question, obviously English since all threads are English, duh

Last edited by shnibop; 07-09-11 at 09:34 AM.
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Old 07-08-11, 11:31 PM
  #28  
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even without the component list it is British without doubt....just has some French frame bits.
Sorry but I can't ID it, maybe Hilary or Norris can.
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Old 07-09-11, 12:26 PM
  #29  
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Who gives a funk what it is. I'd build it and ride it. I'm slightly jealous.
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Old 07-09-11, 01:27 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by realestvin7 View Post
No way that bike was originally pink. Until the 80's, pink was a girl's color.

You want to trade that beauty for something in the "old garage"? Lol.
Prior to WWII, pink was a boy's color.
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Old 07-09-11, 10:27 PM
  #31  
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Absolutely lovely. It takes a lot of work to miter tubes to fit in those narrow lug flanges. If riding a bike whose make you can't identify keeps you awake nights, I'd gladly ride it for you.
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Old 07-10-11, 07:59 PM
  #32  
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alrighty so i stripped the frame today, 99% of the way at least. there are a couple tiny little dings here and there but nothing horrible.

the fork was completely chromed as well as the head tube lugs, and half of the stays and drops. also, the fork is a bit tweaked, 90mm between the fork tips. i laid a center line and it seems the drive side blade is pushed in, non-drive seems fine.

i had my LBS check the frame for any misalignment and they found nothing, the drops are within 1mm of each other in terms of center line of the frame, pretty good for a half century old frame.

i found more of the pink paint throughout:



weird swirly rust all over the main tubes, sands right off however:



remnants of chrome on head lugs, can barely be made out:



numbers/letters on bottom of fork crown are more visible now, possibly '047' and 'WJ':



chrome on the fork is a total loss, front of fork crown looks half way decent but the rest is awful:




a little patch, the last of once glistening chrome:



my next step will be to remove the rest of the paint and rust, then decide how i want to paint it. either try brushing it on, a first for me, or spray, i've had great success with Duplicolor's automotive line of enamel paints. decisions...

Last edited by shnibop; 07-10-11 at 08:19 PM.
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Old 07-10-11, 10:02 PM
  #33  
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Have you looked over the head tube, seat tube and down tube for any traces, any shadows, of old decals? Those rust swirls you show often leave a black stain on the tubing that doesn't clean off well; and under where the decals were, that stain may be missing. See anything like that?
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Old 07-10-11, 10:54 PM
  #34  
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oh yes, i looked. i was hoping to see something like you saw on your Fothergill
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Old 07-11-11, 01:27 AM
  #35  
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i tried threading a Campagnolo NR/SR shifter on the shifter boss and the threads seem to be different. is this normal for a frame of this vintage?
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Old 07-11-11, 05:58 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by shnibop View Post
i tried threading a Campagnolo NR/SR shifter on the shifter boss and the threads seem to be different. is this normal for a frame of this vintage?
I think that is normal. If it's like the one I used to have --and I think it is-- then a Cyclo Benelux shifter will fit on there. Simplex and/or Huret would be worth a try. I don't have a frame with one of those bosses any more, so I cannot check for you.
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Old 07-11-11, 11:31 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by shnibop View Post
i tried threading a Campagnolo NR/SR shifter on the shifter boss and the threads seem to be different. is this normal for a frame of this vintage?
The Carltons I've had with brazeon shift mounts didn't fit the Camagnolo screws, I think they were for Benelux: the levers will work however...
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Old 07-15-11, 04:51 PM
  #38  
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Congratulations! I came very close to bidding on that myself. I think it's a very fine looking frame. A few weeks ago I purchased an unknown frame and fork. I built it up and road it and love it! It fits perfectly and rides great. Now really care less what it is. Actually, I think it likely came out of the Motobecane factory with a Astra name on it. As to your bike, if that light mount is on the right fork blade (drive side), to me that would indicate British. Enjoy!

Last edited by sisddwg; 07-15-11 at 07:35 PM.
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Old 07-15-11, 08:36 PM
  #39  
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news flash! don't assume that an ebay seller's description is accurate.


i've got the frame stripped down 99% of the way and decided i want to mock it up and take it for a quick spin and make sure everything fits (ie. brake reach, BB spindle width etc.) before painting.

well it turns out the BB threads are French, not English as stated in the listing. for a second i couldn't figure out why my fixed cup would not thread in, well because the threads are going the opposite direction. luckily i have a French thread BB as well. it went in a little crunchy but it went in.

unfortunately the crank setup interferes with the chain stay. i wanted to run a cyclo-cross Stronglight 93 chain guard and 1 chain ring, the inner chain ring hits. so i have to ditch the chain guard or get a wider spindle. btw i'm using the matching BB for that crank set.


on a side note, given the fact that it might be a French frame now, does it make it more identifiable based on the serial number?
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Old 07-15-11, 08:51 PM
  #40  
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By the way, here is the Accles & Pollock stamp on the steerer tube of my Fothergill, which I think dates to the 40's.



I don't know what the French BB means. But the light boss on the right side of the fork, that's still English. The French drive on the right side of the road and anyway, the French like their headlights mounted atop the front of the fender.
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Old 07-15-11, 08:56 PM
  #41  
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These are the days of our lives...
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Old 06-15-13, 11:19 AM
  #42  
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Hi, i know this is an old tread, but i think you have a Viking frame. Look at classicvikings.co.uk. Nice frame, i think its an An Steel Model. Jim
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Old 06-15-13, 12:14 PM
  #43  
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I have a 50's Bertin that has Nervex Lugs and a numbering system on the bottom bracket similar to the one in your photo. However it begins with 59 suggesting to me that it is a mfg code from Nervex and it very likely begins with the year made.
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Old 11-20-17, 11:32 AM
  #44  
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its a BATES British made bicycle built by brothers Horace and EG Bates.
Good luck with your restoration.
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Regards
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Old 11-20-17, 04:47 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by trevoruk View Post
its a BATES British made bicycle built by brothers Horace and EG Bates.
Good luck with your restoration.
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Trevor, can you let us know how exactly you came to this conclusion? Thank you!
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Old 11-20-17, 07:06 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by lostarchitect View Post
Trevor, can you let us know how exactly you came to this conclusion? Thank you!
I have just acquired the same manufacturers frame..mine is about 1954 serial number 17469. Mine probably made by EG Bates. His Brother Horace was famous for a unique design of tube and front fork.
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Old 11-21-17, 05:56 AM
  #47  
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Sorry...I could be wrong here with my assumption...please delete if a distraction in the thread. Regards
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Old 11-21-17, 08:16 AM
  #48  
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I'll not get involved in identifying this frame (I think I know what it is though), but I will advise you - forum members - that steerers on English frames in this period often used A&P tubing even though the frame may be built with Reynolds.

The Nervex lugs are fairly commonplace on frames of this period and later: the gearlever boss is for a Cyclo.

John.
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Old 11-21-17, 07:58 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by hobbs1951 View Post
I'll not get involved in identifying this frame (I think I know what it is though), but I will advise you - forum members - that steerers on English frames in this period often used A&P tubing even though the frame may be built with Reynolds.
....
Just the steerer, or also the fork blades? Seems to me I've seen the A&P stamps on fork blades more than once.

The fork blades on my Fothergill are definitely A&P and perhaps the reason that bike's so comfortable. As I ride I think I can see the blades flexing over bumps etc. And the fork is remarkably light.

Last edited by rhm; 11-21-17 at 08:01 PM.
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Old 01-17-21, 11:02 PM
  #50  
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The discussion here has helped me with my hunt to the track frame I have and clarified what numbers I have. The frame I have is stamped Accles and Pollock quality A tubing and is a frame much like the A&P advertising of the 1922 tube set. The steerer tube on my frame is stamped separately with a tube set number on one side that also appears on the BB so the unusual serial number referred to on your frame is the A&P tube set number, not a builders number. This also appears to be stamped over the Nervex number that is a record of frame angles that the BB provides.

Thus I conclude the A&P tubeset number appears on both the steerer tube and BB. This also seems to apply with a small number of A&P frame sets discussed elsewhere. I doubt very much if the tubing used for my frame is Reynolds as pre 1928 A&P and Reynolds had no association at all being in complete manufacturing competition and then even up to 1980 there is only one reference to both being associated as part of Tube Investment Ltd in their used of each otherís tubing.

I have no idea of who assembled the A&P tubeset in Christchurch?, New Zealand. The Major Taylor handle bar stem and seat stem are both stamped Accles and Pollock Made In England. There is only one odd number on the BB that could be a makers date, 16, along with 36. Advertising I have seen for A&P does refer to 1914 as a manufacture date for their bars.

Pre WW1 it is recorded that the manufacture of product for domestic consumption stopped to allow for the WW1 supply to be made.

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