A decade of dopers.........
10-14-12, 06:12 AM
#77
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In the past 30 years, TdF winners who have never tested positive, confessed to drugs, or been implicated in a sting operation include Hinault, LeMond, Sastre, Evans, and Wiggins (Delgado and Indurain are close, but both tested positive for drugs that were legal at the time but are banned now). However, that doesn't mean these riders are clean either. Personally, I have my doubts about LeMond. His 1989 TT finish remains the fastest TT over 20km in TdF history, beating all the doped riders of the "dirty decade" (who were also riding more modern bikes).
Personally, I don't care, but then I am a realist. You race a couple hundred kilometers and get up and do it again and again...you become a realist.
I still think Floyd's Stage 17 ride is one of the greatest single day rides in the history of cycling. I don't care what he was on...cuz so was everyone else.
Just accept what the environment was and move on everyone. That does not make it right, but c'mon man.
Last edited by roadwarrior; 10-14-12 at 06:28 AM.
10-14-12, 06:33 AM
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The problem here is they were all cheating. Seriously. That's rather obvious. But can you tolerate it? No.
Even if it means the sport's big icon has to take the Big Fall, he has to come down. Armstrong strikes me as a tragic figure in some ways, but he is the penultimate dbag. Still, the guy did almost die from cancer, and he did come back to win the hardest sporting event in the world against similarly doped competitors 7 straight times. That will always be absolutely amazing, even if you don't like the guy, and even if he did dope. After reading Hamilton's book, the doping aspect makes his success even more astonishing in some ways.
Ugly story in the end. Hey, at least he raised dough for cancer and inspired a lot of people, so it's not all bad.
The best thing he could do would be to come clean. I think ultimately Armstrong would figure out a way to stay popular. Not for nothing, but painting Armstrong as some kind of devil here is preposterous. He's just an exceptional athlete that played out this sordid game better than anybody else, with the complicity of the sport's governing body (and one might argue even top broadcasters and media who seemed to look the other way), as ALL of his competitors were also trying to do at the same time. And for that we want to burn the guy like a witch? Keep a little perspective here. While I agree with the USADA's actions, no matter how much it disappoints people, the vilification of Armstrong in some quarters is over the top in the context of the dirty sport he participated in during that era. If you want to vilify anybody, start with the UCI.
In the end, this may well be the final signal that tells pro cycling the doping party is really over, and hopefully the sport moves forward in a healthier way.
Even if it means the sport's big icon has to take the Big Fall, he has to come down. Armstrong strikes me as a tragic figure in some ways, but he is the penultimate dbag. Still, the guy did almost die from cancer, and he did come back to win the hardest sporting event in the world against similarly doped competitors 7 straight times. That will always be absolutely amazing, even if you don't like the guy, and even if he did dope. After reading Hamilton's book, the doping aspect makes his success even more astonishing in some ways.
Ugly story in the end. Hey, at least he raised dough for cancer and inspired a lot of people, so it's not all bad.
The best thing he could do would be to come clean. I think ultimately Armstrong would figure out a way to stay popular. Not for nothing, but painting Armstrong as some kind of devil here is preposterous. He's just an exceptional athlete that played out this sordid game better than anybody else, with the complicity of the sport's governing body (and one might argue even top broadcasters and media who seemed to look the other way), as ALL of his competitors were also trying to do at the same time. And for that we want to burn the guy like a witch? Keep a little perspective here. While I agree with the USADA's actions, no matter how much it disappoints people, the vilification of Armstrong in some quarters is over the top in the context of the dirty sport he participated in during that era. If you want to vilify anybody, start with the UCI.
In the end, this may well be the final signal that tells pro cycling the doping party is really over, and hopefully the sport moves forward in a healthier way.
10-14-12, 06:43 AM
#82
out walking the earth
What could perhaps be the last word in doping.
It was written about the 1987 Tour. Decade, indeed. For all those who champion letting them do whatever they want ask yourself if you'd want your kid on a path that would inevitably lead to his premature death. Ultimately it's not very different than many other unhealthy/illegal lifestyles that we likely would do anything in out power to see them avoid.
It was written about the 1987 Tour. Decade, indeed. For all those who champion letting them do whatever they want ask yourself if you'd want your kid on a path that would inevitably lead to his premature death. Ultimately it's not very different than many other unhealthy/illegal lifestyles that we likely would do anything in out power to see them avoid.
10-14-12, 08:39 AM
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I had never heard of "Wide-eyed and Legless".
In searching for info on it, I turned up an interesting cycling reading list:
50-41 https://www.cyclesportmag.com/feature...s-of-all-time/
40-31 https://www.cyclesportmag.com/feature...ll-time-40-31/
30-21 https://www.cyclesportmag.com/feature...ll-time-30-21/
20-11 https://www.cyclesportmag.com/feature...ll-time-20-11/
10-6 https://www.cyclesportmag.com/feature...all-time-10-6/
5-1 https://www.cyclesportmag.com/feature...-all-time-1-5/
In searching for info on it, I turned up an interesting cycling reading list:
50-41 https://www.cyclesportmag.com/feature...s-of-all-time/
40-31 https://www.cyclesportmag.com/feature...ll-time-40-31/
30-21 https://www.cyclesportmag.com/feature...ll-time-30-21/
20-11 https://www.cyclesportmag.com/feature...ll-time-20-11/
10-6 https://www.cyclesportmag.com/feature...all-time-10-6/
5-1 https://www.cyclesportmag.com/feature...-all-time-1-5/
10-14-12, 09:42 AM
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gsteinb, lotto had a brazlian rider back in the mid 90s... he was used like ginea pig for a lot of drugs back in the day, he had to retire and he just died a few years ago. Wanderley magalhaes was his name, knew the guy back before going to europe, one of the kindest guys i ever met, was shocking to hear what happened after his dead.
He got cancer (looks like a known story right?) after his stay with the lotto-caloi team, he went back to brazil and worked with a small local team and and died in 2006 at age 39 after a generalized organs failure due to the cancer.
Sure other riders got the same fate and their names had been forgotten.
He got cancer (looks like a known story right?) after his stay with the lotto-caloi team, he went back to brazil and worked with a small local team and and died in 2006 at age 39 after a generalized organs failure due to the cancer.
Sure other riders got the same fate and their names had been forgotten.
10-14-12, 10:37 AM
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anyone who believes Pro cycling is now clean is fooling themselves. Sky isn't any cleaner than US Postal, they're just doing it better than the others with big pull and big money.
10-14-12, 10:38 AM
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Personally, I don't care, but then I am a realist. You race a couple hundred kilometers and get up and do it again and again...you become a realist.
I still think Floyd's Stage 17 ride is one of the greatest single day rides in the history of cycling. I don't care what he was on...cuz so was everyone else.
Just accept what the environment was and move on everyone. That does not make it right, but c'mon man.
I still think Floyd's Stage 17 ride is one of the greatest single day rides in the history of cycling. I don't care what he was on...cuz so was everyone else.
Just accept what the environment was and move on everyone. That does not make it right, but c'mon man.
10-14-12, 10:46 AM
#87
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They may not be clean but there's no evidence to support them being as dirty as postal. For one the weight/watts numbers just don't support that theory at all.
10-14-12, 11:35 AM
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My vote is for LeMond and Evans.
LeMond because he was always fast in the TdF (think he finished no worse than 3rd until Indurain beat him), yet you could see a progression of weak performances earlier in the season as he trained into condition. The '89 TT, while incredible, is valid as it's a much shorter distance than what the pros ride today (so their average speed will be slower), plus LeMond's strength was TTing.
Evans because he's always been an outstanding athlete, plus you can see in 2011 he he progresses through the season. Further, in the TdF he really was very lucky. Contador and Wiggins had crashes in the first week, the Schlecks just paced themselves up the mountains, Voekler had a random blinder and took pressure off Evans...
Based on how institutionalized drugs seems to be, and given the people implicated in doping now at Sky, I really think that Wiggins is on something too. Perhaps like Indurain and Delgado, something that isn't banned right now, but I just don't think you can have a year where you and your team romp every single stage race for 4 months without being on something.
LeMond because he was always fast in the TdF (think he finished no worse than 3rd until Indurain beat him), yet you could see a progression of weak performances earlier in the season as he trained into condition. The '89 TT, while incredible, is valid as it's a much shorter distance than what the pros ride today (so their average speed will be slower), plus LeMond's strength was TTing.
Evans because he's always been an outstanding athlete, plus you can see in 2011 he he progresses through the season. Further, in the TdF he really was very lucky. Contador and Wiggins had crashes in the first week, the Schlecks just paced themselves up the mountains, Voekler had a random blinder and took pressure off Evans...
Based on how institutionalized drugs seems to be, and given the people implicated in doping now at Sky, I really think that Wiggins is on something too. Perhaps like Indurain and Delgado, something that isn't banned right now, but I just don't think you can have a year where you and your team romp every single stage race for 4 months without being on something.
10-14-12, 01:30 PM
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Of course you leave out that the course was downhill and there was a tailwind. Any reason you failed to mention that?
10-14-12, 02:42 PM
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What could perhaps be the last word in doping.
It was written about the 1987 Tour. Decade, indeed. For all those who champion letting them do whatever they want ask yourself if you'd want your kid on a path that would inevitably lead to his premature death. Ultimately it's not very different than many other unhealthy/illegal lifestyles that we likely would do anything in out power to see them avoid.
It was written about the 1987 Tour. Decade, indeed. For all those who champion letting them do whatever they want ask yourself if you'd want your kid on a path that would inevitably lead to his premature death. Ultimately it's not very different than many other unhealthy/illegal lifestyles that we likely would do anything in out power to see them avoid.
Most all the posters out here really have no clue. If you have not, read "A Dog in a Hat".
10-14-12, 04:43 PM
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That's another unfortunate aspect to this whole mess. If a squeaky clean racer wins a race, he/she will automatically be a doping suspect.
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10-14-12, 05:09 PM
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There is another guy that basically wrote the book and so far i know he had been investigating this thing for the last 4 or 5 years. Is not only hamilton's that is telling stuff in there, the other guy has other sources too.
The only thing that I would love to know is this...
Franky andreu and his wife were in the hospital when LA was talking with the doctors about the stuff he was taking and stuff... why in the world the name of the doctors are still mute? I mean... i would have talked with the doctors and basically forced them to talk in front of the jury as it happened with the other guys.
What i see is that this is still and fight of "he said, you said," and sure LA will die denying the situation, if one of the doctors that was in the room that day talks you dont need more evidence. Sure nobody believes to hamilton and others... other guys are saying they havent seen nothing eventhought they were in the same team than LA for a few seasons... anybody knows if one of the doctors came up and talked about what happened in the room that day?
The only thing that I would love to know is this...
Franky andreu and his wife were in the hospital when LA was talking with the doctors about the stuff he was taking and stuff... why in the world the name of the doctors are still mute? I mean... i would have talked with the doctors and basically forced them to talk in front of the jury as it happened with the other guys.
What i see is that this is still and fight of "he said, you said," and sure LA will die denying the situation, if one of the doctors that was in the room that day talks you dont need more evidence. Sure nobody believes to hamilton and others... other guys are saying they havent seen nothing eventhought they were in the same team than LA for a few seasons... anybody knows if one of the doctors came up and talked about what happened in the room that day?
10-14-12, 05:30 PM
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LeMond would certainly know if Hinault was doping, and after the double-cross of 1986, would have had every reason to finger him. I think he had 5 clean titles.
I don't know how fit Evans was this year, but I remember watching every break of his get reeled in seemingly effortlessly by the Sky train. I have to think that he was clean. Certainly, if he was ever tempted to micro dose and take his chances, this would have been the time. I have to think he was clean last year, too.
I don't know how fit Evans was this year, but I remember watching every break of his get reeled in seemingly effortlessly by the Sky train. I have to think that he was clean. Certainly, if he was ever tempted to micro dose and take his chances, this would have been the time. I have to think he was clean last year, too.
10-14-12, 07:59 PM
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I just came across this gem from August:
Lance Armstrong: Was He Doping or Experimenting with Science?
https://ideas.time.com/2012/08/27/lan...#ixzz29KSAP6WG
Lance Armstrong: Was He Doping or Experimenting with Science?
https://ideas.time.com/2012/08/27/lan...#ixzz29KSAP6WG
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10-14-12, 08:45 PM
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sR8Qrj12gE
Watch him swallow hard at 1:06; that is a known sign of being "uncomfortable".
Watch him swallow hard at 1:06; that is a known sign of being "uncomfortable".
10-14-12, 09:54 PM
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While I agree with the USADA's actions, no matter how much it disappoints people, the vilification of Armstrong in some quarters is over the top in the context of the dirty sport he participated in during that era. If you want to vilify anybody, start with the UCI.
In the end, this may well be the final signal that tells pro cycling the doping party is really over, and hopefully the sport moves forward in a healthier way.
In the end, this may well be the final signal that tells pro cycling the doping party is really over, and hopefully the sport moves forward in a healthier way.
However, what really surprised me was about the USADA report was just how vindictive and ruthless Armstrong was (and likely still is) to anyone who threatened to shatter his glass house. We all know about Frankie and Betsy Andreau (whom I probably feel worst for), Emma O'Riley, Landis, Hamilton, and others from the past. But hearing that he was threatening Levi last year in retaliation against his testimony (which undoubtedly cost him Levi his job with RadioShack) and the way he routinely thought nothing of destroying those who crossed his path just to preserve his ill gotten gains really disturbed me. No one is vilifying Armstrong in the media, his actions and threats against those who were trying to tell the truth reveal his true colors. These were guys who fought hard for him in each Tour, sacrificing their own ambitions and ultimately selling their souls to his demands. When the time came for them to own up to their own transgressions Armstrong did everything he could to burn them quickly and violently. He could have come out and owned up to things, kept his friends and teammates from having to be in this position. Instead he branded them as liars and did everything in his power to destroy them. His actions really disgust me.
I'm no fan of Lance, but there are two products he's a part owner in which I love to death: Honey Stinger my favorite on bike food and Mellow Johnnys my favorite bike shop in the world. At first when I was hashing this out in my head I could live with it. He doped in an age of dopers, no big deal. However, after reading the USADA report and hearing about the sheer malevolence he exudes, I just don't want to support anyone like that.
10-14-12, 10:14 PM
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I had never heard of "Wide-eyed and Legless".
In searching for info on it, I turned up an interesting cycling reading list:
50-41 https://www.cyclesportmag.com/feature...s-of-all-time/
40-31 https://www.cyclesportmag.com/feature...ll-time-40-31/
30-21 https://www.cyclesportmag.com/feature...ll-time-30-21/
20-11 https://www.cyclesportmag.com/feature...ll-time-20-11/
10-6 https://www.cyclesportmag.com/feature...all-time-10-6/
5-1 https://www.cyclesportmag.com/feature...-all-time-1-5/
In searching for info on it, I turned up an interesting cycling reading list:
50-41 https://www.cyclesportmag.com/feature...s-of-all-time/
40-31 https://www.cyclesportmag.com/feature...ll-time-40-31/
30-21 https://www.cyclesportmag.com/feature...ll-time-30-21/
20-11 https://www.cyclesportmag.com/feature...ll-time-20-11/
10-6 https://www.cyclesportmag.com/feature...all-time-10-6/
5-1 https://www.cyclesportmag.com/feature...-all-time-1-5/
Last edited by alpha_bravo; 10-14-12 at 10:21 PM.