Elbeinlaw

It's true. I couldn't agree more. "They" have convinced "us" that if we object to not getting customer service, we're just ingrates and non-team players. Worse (as we can see from this string) they have us at each others' throats like crabs in a bucket (to mix metaphors).

But if we object, it will stop. For example, if we all decide that we each individually will not do business with an on line company that does not have either a telephone number, an e-mail address, or a "chat" feature, then companies will stop shoving products at us without allowing some interaction. And from now on, if it doesn't come with a manual, I'm not buying it.

But I am over 50. I'm a grumpy old man. Get off my lawn.

Elbeinlaw

Man, John. You're OLD. (You're older than me by 4 years.)

To be clear, I don't mean that it's an age thing like older people are grumpy or stupid or not with the program (though I think I confessed to one of those earlier, but I'm old and I forget). Nor that younger people are any of those things. I mean that there are almost different age-generated cultures at work.

I've been engaged in the prosecution of financial and consumer fraud now for almost 20 years. In those years I've seen a big change as one generation--that grew up in business, sometimes working for their parents' in their grandparents' businesses, that learned business not by MBA but by actually doing business--passed the torch to younger people who typically were new to business. And of course the consumers "coming up" generally know nothing of the history of the way business is done. My kids only know the business transactions they've engaged in. It's anathema to them (as to some here) that any producer would ever distribute instructions. They're 30 years younger than me. Something changed markedly in that 30 years, and now what should be unacceptable behavior has become acceptable.

That's the only reason I asked about age.

Elbeinlaw

It says that nowhere. I just looked.you supposedly bought you supposedly ... you sayIf they can't personally explain or provide resources to help whatever it is you want to know --email the president of Trek directly and complain that they don't have a YouTube channel.

veganbikes

If you had the manual, would you actually have kept it? Most people probably lose that stuff or toss it. Most of the manuals are pretty generic and most of the components are already installed. I would rather have a something like Sutherlands or Park's Big Blue Book.

70sSanO

I spent 30 years in aerospace. The last 20 specializing in compliance to DOD acquisition regulations. There were days when I would spend the morning in "discussions" with the Govt audit agencies and then the afternoon arguing with mgmt.

We were located next to an ariport and I have a vivid memory of looking out the 6th floor window on 9/11 prior to a meeting with an auditor for our monthly status of the estimating system. All the Govt employees had already been directed to leave the premises, but there's always one. For years a kept a copy of the document that was signed on 09/11/2001. I still shake my head today.

John

GeneO 

That's not new. It has been that way for some time. My bikes come with an assortment of service manuals for the components that are usually not a complete set. I just find any missing I need online. It's not like the component manufacturers do not provide this information. you have to dig a little. And I am older than you Oh, and BTW, the owners manual sometimes have torque values for the various components that are generalizations and are wrong, at least for high end carbon bikes. I always go to the manufacturer of the part for installation and maintenance instructions.

Carbonfiberboy 

A lot of tech gear I buy basically comes with a quick start guide and that's it. Manufacturers assume (and rightly so) that the buyer will know to go online to get the manual(s). I'm fine with that. Saves paper and online, they're searchable. I think most of us will get on a new bike and ride it without having to RTFM. If one wants to get into the weeds and do their own work rather than give it to a bike shop, fine. Get the manuals you need. I have separate computer folders for manuals for the various categories of equipment I buy. If a paper manual comes with the thing, I put it in my 5" thick folder of paper manuals. But if I want to refer to a manual later, it's way quicker for me to locate it online than it is to dig through my paper manual folder. Older devices without online manuals are a PITA because those bits of paper have to be carefully stored, which I do.

freeranger

Been a while since I bought a bike, but I think they should come with at least a basic manual. Around a year ago, was on a ride, and one of those riding was inexperienced. The seat was way too low, and I noticed the quick release on the front wheel was pointing straight ahead. Just didn't like the way it looked so thought I'm move it. He was using the lever to turn the axle to tighten the wheel! Lucky it didn't let loose on him before I showed him how it worked. After adjusting the seat, showed him a few things he could adjust, and basic features of his bike. Yeah, a manual should would have helped him!! One senior I ride with (won't call him old-probably around my age!) doesn't own a computer or smart phone. He is bike smart, but what are people that don't care to indulge in modern technology to do? Might be few that don't, but still....

ljsense

This is just a giant troll. The guy claims Trek doesn't offer manuals; in fact, they do, rather extensively. He says they don't have a YouTube channel; they do, with tons of content.

They publish contact email addresses, they have a chat feature on their web site staffed by people in their Wisconsin headquarters, they run a huge network of retail bike shops with staff extensively trained on their products.

Nothing here is credible. And he never once said what specifically he wants to find out.

Maybe he'll move on and start a tirade about how he can't find cheap wine at Trader Joe's, or that he'd wish John Deere tractors would be easily recognizable by color, or pharmaceutical companies should run more TV ads.

Sy Reene

Good to know. Can someone take a picture of theirs and post? Maybe a shot of the table of contents?

krecik

ljsense

Sure, here you are. And the link again to many more.

Elbeinlaw

Ljsense, I was ready to leave this alone, but I don't appreciate being attacked in an ignorant and deceptive way. You want to have a discussion, I'm game. But don't misrepresent what I've said or continue to accuse me of one sin after another.

Those links you published for the supposed Trek manuals? If you had taken the time to click any of those links you'd find they contain nothing but generalizations and platitudes. I don't know why you'd work so hard to misrepresent my very carefully stated comments. I don't find it useful to waste any time trying to figure out your motivation.

As for the YouTube channels, (1) I never commented on the existence of YouTube channels; again, you didn't get your facts straight. (2) Take a look at what they put on Youtube. It's strictly promotional/marketing. See if any of those videos below tell you anything about how to adjust or repair any bike. I guess you can't tell the difference between information and advertising. But everyone else here certainly can.

And by the way, you've proven Abraham Lincoln's aphorism about "removing all doubt."

ljsense

robertorolfo

I think we are on the same wavelength here, and I am pretty far from 50, so there might still be some hope.

That said, I don't think most people of any age tend to think the way we do. I'd love for us all to decide that we should do business with X, or that we should buy cheap garbage made in a sweat shop halfway around the world, but alas this sort of consensus seems elusive. Quite a few people, myself included, seemed pretty determined to stop the proliferation of WallMart a couple of decades ago (as they left a series of destroyed mom and pop stores in their wake), but alas the giant and the ignorance won out.

This is sort of the point. While you prefer using your computer, and argue that it is superior (control+F ftw), some of us still prefer a piece of paper (the index and glossary are really pretty useful, I promise). There are many reasons for this, and simply keeping your greasy fingers off the computer/phone, or detaching from the device you spend all day using for work, is not to be discounted.

Perhaps my perspective is a little different because I belong to a generation that spanned the gap between the pre and post internet world. The internet wasn't available (or at lest used by) the general public when I started high-school, but it was by the time I finished. So yes, computers and technology have made some things faster and more efficient, but not necessarily more enjoyable. If you only ride a bike to get from point A to point B, and see it merely as a tool that's more efficient than walking, then I doubt you could understand, but, if like most of us, you can see the pleasure in actually riding (or working on) your bike, then you can probably understand why the pre-digital world holds so much appeal...

Carbonfiberboy 

Oh wow, man, just wow. I'm 75 and have done all my own bike work since I was a little kid. I've randoed, been on at least 1000 group rides and am still at it. You really need to park your preconceptions before entering. I once printed out a 50 page PDF manual for reference - a mistake and a waste of paper. I recycled it. Thanks to modernity, a 140 page manual is wonderful and covers every detail. OTOH the 3/4" thick manual which came with my car is a complete PITA. You may not have noticed, but online manuals not only have tables of contents, but just a click takes one right to the subject. Glossary? Really? You need a glossary? You claim some right to superiority, yet pompously suggest that we kill even more trees for their paper.

Kids these days, I don't know what the world's coming to. Sorry for the rant if you were simply being facetious.

Elbeinlaw

LJSense: Credit goes to you! I didn't find these. Good job.

Of course I'm still right.*

Does it phase (faze?) you at all that none of these is the bike that I bought, and not the components that are on my bike? There's nothing anywhere about my bike, and TREK told me that they had nothing. I just find that unacceptable.

But we can agree that you're wrong to disagree.*

------
*That was humor.

robertorolfo

First off, my post wasn't mean to be antagonistic, but simply sharing a different point of view. And yes, based on the content and your username, I did indeed assume you were a fair bit younger.

So we like different things, and I don't see any problem with that, but I think your condemnation of printed manuals is a bit harsh. Paper/tree/recycling issues aside, I don't think it's fair for you to deem digital manuals superior. Horses for courses...

Troul 

Liability is the reason for the lack of documentation. Can't sue a big company [ie: TREK] if the supporting information says to take it to an authorized service retailer when something might be suspect.

Trakhak

With the usual possibility of rare exceptions, the manuals provided by bike manufacturers have never offered anything other than generic information, including in the era before frivolous lawsuits became commonplace.

Sy Reene

I believe that, but I think part of the discussion is also what happens to the individual component/groupset manuals that are or aren't typically shipped if you buy that component/groupset? Campy supplies User Manuals with their items, and I know I've received manuals with eg. FSA handlebars, SQ & Fabric saddles, and various other bits and bobs. If you buy eg. a Bontrager saddle at the LBS, is there a manual (instruction sheet) in the box. If so, do you get that same piece of literature as part of a complete bike? Not just a Trek thing btw either, could ask about Specialized or any of bike maker similar. Shimano groupset unboxing videos show manuals do indeed ship with their components, so why not received with the bike?

shoota 

I'd be a little peeved if I were you too. My 2015 Cannondale SuperSix came with a generic bicycle owner's manual, a SuperSix manual supplement, and all the Sram Red manuals for the components. The SuperSix supplemental manual is actually really great. It has just about everything you could want in it. Parts numbers, install instructions, exploded diagrams, geo charts, torque specs,required tools, etc. The Sram manuals are almost just as good.

And yes I do keep them.

And yes I did need to use it the other day when something broke. Looked up the part number, went online, and ordered it and the tool for it. No questions if it was the right part, no trusting some internet know-it-all. Easy peasy.

ljsense

What bikes did you buy and what do you want to know about them?

Elbeinlaw

Thank you for asking. We bought two Trek Verve "Low Entry" bikes because we are a bit more unflexible than we were 20 years ago. I've owned bikes that I bought and maintained since 1978, so I'm not a neophyte. But my last new bike was from some time in the 2010s. At that point, disc brakes were in the very-high-end bikes and probably mountain bikes. I never worked on them. Index shifting was pretty new in the general bike market, like my Fuji Absolut. But the main technology was pretty much what it had been.

The Treks both have disk (disc?) brakes. I figure I'll get it sooner or later. But there are things that I should be able to find in a manual: like, when I removed and replaced the quick release front wheel on my wife's bike, the brake pads were jammed. I figured it out (largely because I'd seen a disk-brake-unjammer tool on the internet and wondered, "Gee, I wonder what that's for?") So I figured out how to do that, but I'm going to have to work throught the disk brake technology.

The bigger challenge came next. I went to quick release the wheels on my bike, a Verge 3. I'd never seen anything like it: quick release on one side and an attached-to-the-frame nut on the other side. Maybe this is new technology as of 30 years ago, maybe it's proprietary--I have no way of knowing. In fact--and here's the main point--I don't know what to call it, so looking it up didn't work. If I had a manual, with an identification of parts, I'd have been able to identify what it was. And to look it up.

Now, I know as sure as I'm living (if you can call this living) that one of you is going to tell me what the damn thing is called, other than all of the things I've called it in about 3 different languages. Or, equally beside the point, tell me how to use the quick release. I'd appreciate the advice, but that's not the point I'm making. The point is that an instruction manual should describe every part of the bike. E.g. "this is a derailler." "This is a disk brake." "This is a seat post." "This is our patented Trek Non-quick-release-release front axle." Particularly in newer technology, that's pretty obvious to me that they owe me this. They don't want to print it out to save ink and trees and dollars, OK: put the details on line. In fact, give me a manual with links to each page on your site.

But these people do nothing. And when I talked to Trek, they were less than useless. They were useless with a 35 minute wait. I don't care if it's just because I'm old and grumpy. That's bullshirt not to provide elementary information. I'd never recommend Treks to anyone just for this reason. If you don't support your product I don't support you and I will tell everyone I know that that's your corporate attitude.

And that's the end of my b***h session. Thank you all for listening. If anyone wants to light torches and up pitch forks, I'm in.

robbiesd

It seems some of this is due to one company reaching a majority market share, a position that allows them to do as they please and in this case, it's chasing the bottom line instead of providing good customer service. They are also why there is no longer a national bike trade show.
Solution: Boycott Trek.