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Training Status??? (IV)

Old 06-14-18, 10:19 AM
  #11926  
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Originally Posted by aaronmcd
All I know is many cat 1s seem to be utterly oblivious to their huge genetic advantage and pretend they have it all figured out when the more likely reality is that they have natural talent and don't even know the struggles of the commoner.
My power is lower than yours across the board, except for 5s sprint, right?
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Old 06-14-18, 10:34 AM
  #11927  
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Stats from Sunday's race:

Lap 1: ~25min, 290AP 361NP, 25.2mph
Lap 2: ~25min, 231AP 316NP, 25.3mph

Lap 1 I was doing my best to keep **** in check for teammates, Lap 2 I was mentally broken and sitting in, and despite going a bit faster my NP and AP are wayyyy lower. The smart racers on lap 1 were much, much happier than I was. This stuff is what makes the difference in the elites IMO, moreso than power in most cases. The playing field is fairly even so it's about how you play your cards.
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Old 06-14-18, 11:23 AM
  #11928  
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How much variance do you guys have in your 5 > 20 minute power? The variance between my 5 to 40 minute power is only 30 watts, which seems like it should be higher (Coggan Scale is 50 watts).

To be fair, none of those numbers are test effort, and aren't fresh. They're just my best wattages for the year... except for the 40 minute, which I could have went a few watts better.

The killer for me is the poor 1 minute power. So many times I get detached because of it. Its going to be interesting to see if that changes with my form.
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Old 06-14-18, 11:33 AM
  #11929  
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Originally Posted by mattm
My power is lower than yours across the board, except for 5s sprint, right?
Idk, my stages was showing higher numbers than the powertap and my current P2M is likely reading lower.
I went from 325 last year on Stages to 270 this year on P2M with the same times lol. I was at 325 on the powertap years ago so I'd like to think the P2M is reading low but calculating from the climb near my house it's only maybe 20 watts low. At least it's consistent though!

But still, this wasn't supposed to be all about my lousy numbers, even if that's what gets me thinking about it. I'm not even trying to say sustained power/speed is ALL one needs, but it is the most important piece (of the fitness side), and is required to build the other parts on - if all one has is high FTP they can survive most races and even have a shot at getting away. For instance many guys I see around me in races. Sure I see them struggling on some super surgey parts but at least they aren't getting dropped. And they seem to able to play games patrolling the front quite well, even without positioning skills. If ALL someone has is a sprint, good luck even surviving. Some people are lucky if they ever see the front of the race, and then is it really racing, or just pack fill?

Gary makes a point about 5 minute power which has always been my best as well, and it definitely has helped me survive many sustained surges where my threshold just wouldn't cut it. but without the threshold power even a relatively good 5' might not be enough. If all the race is is surge and coast like with a hill or hairpin, you're gonna need high np, and while it may not exactly match FTP, it's definitely related. Without a good threshold you can't surge and coast as much (unless you are Hack who regularly rides np=115% ftp or so lol!).

I agree positioning/bike skills are also important, I personally would not survive without them, and while I'd rather not have guys around me get sketched out by normal stuff - I do see guys with good power and non-existent skills surviving and even getting away and helping control the race. The other way around doesn't work. Seems to take an average sized dude like me, matt, or rubiksoval mid to upper 200s np to survive and hide. More to work the front.
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Old 06-14-18, 11:43 AM
  #11930  
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Originally Posted by furiousferret
How much variance do you guys have in your 5 > 20 minute power? The variance between my 5 to 40 minute power is only 30 watts, which seems like it should be higher (Coggan Scale is 50 watts).

To be fair, none of those numbers are test effort, and aren't fresh. They're just my best wattages for the year... except for the 40 minute, which I could have went a few watts better.

The killer for me is the poor 1 minute power. So many times I get detached because of it. Its going to be interesting to see if that changes with my form.
Across power meters, about 75%-78% or 80-90 watts. 5' vs. estimated FTP
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Old 06-14-18, 11:48 AM
  #11931  
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Originally Posted by furiousferret
How much variance do you guys have in your 5 > 20 minute power? The variance between my 5 to 40 minute power is only 30 watts, which seems like it should be higher (Coggan Scale is 50 watts).
.
2017: 20 min: 371, 5 min: 434
2018: 20 min, 372, 5 min: 434.

I reckon I've about plateaued for life. (432w and 433w the two years before that, I believe).

40 min power is closer to 340 (modeled, I have no desire to ever actually try that).

Last year I hit ~730 for a minute when I trained it for a few weeks. This year don't think I've done over 660 or so. 700 seems to be my average across forever, so around 9.3 w/kg

All those numbers are from training, except for the 5 min from 2015-16. I set both of those 5 min prs at the Ft. McClellan PRT road race in the first 15 mins of the race. As I was getting dropped.

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Old 06-14-18, 11:49 AM
  #11932  
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Originally Posted by aaronmcd
Idk, my stages was showing higher numbers than the powertap and my current P2M is likely reading lower.
I went from 325 last year on Stages to 270 this year on P2M with the same times lol. I was at 325 on the powertap years ago so I'd like to think the P2M is reading low but calculating from the climb near my house it's only maybe 20 watts low. At least it's consistent though!

But still, this wasn't supposed to be all about my lousy numbers, even if that's what gets me thinking about it. I'm not even trying to say sustained power/speed is ALL one needs, but it is the most important piece (of the fitness side), and is required to build the other parts on - if all one has is high FTP they can survive most races and even have a shot at getting away. For instance many guys I see around me in races. Sure I see them struggling on some super surgey parts but at least they aren't getting dropped. And they seem to able to play games patrolling the front quite well, even without positioning skills. If ALL someone has is a sprint, good luck even surviving. Some people are lucky if they ever see the front of the race, and then is it really racing, or just pack fill?

Gary makes a point about 5 minute power which has always been my best as well, and it definitely has helped me survive many sustained surges where my threshold just wouldn't cut it. but without the threshold power even a relatively good 5' might not be enough. If all the race is is surge and coast like with a hill or hairpin, you're gonna need high np, and while it may not exactly match FTP, it's definitely related. Without a good threshold you can't surge and coast as much (unless you are Hack who regularly rides np=115% ftp or so lol!).

I agree positioning/bike skills are also important, I personally would not survive without them, and while I'd rather not have guys around me get sketched out by normal stuff - I do see guys with good power and non-existent skills surviving and even getting away and helping control the race. The other way around doesn't work. Seems to take an average sized dude like me, matt, or rubiksoval mid to upper 200s np to survive and hide. More to work the front.
Seriously, the amount of FTP you actually need is not nearly as much as you appear to think you need, unless you're doing legit 15+ minute climbs all out. The ability to surge hard and recover over and over and over again is what wins races.
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Old 06-14-18, 12:05 PM
  #11933  
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genetic advantage
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Old 06-14-18, 12:06 PM
  #11934  
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Originally Posted by TheKillerPenguin
Seriously, the amount of FTP you actually need is not nearly as much as you appear to think you need, unless you're doing legit 15+ minute climbs all out. The ability to surge hard and recover over and over and over again is what wins races.
you don't even need that, honestly. ask me how I know.
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Old 06-14-18, 12:29 PM
  #11935  
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darn forum ate my post

anyway

over the past 10 years I've been pretty consistently in the 20 minute bracket 320-340 and five minute being 375-405. I'm much lighter now than ten years ago, though my numbers are slightly lower.
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Old 06-14-18, 12:41 PM
  #11936  
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Originally Posted by Ygduf


genetic advantage
I've averaged ~625 since I started riding November 2013. Where's my genetic advantage?
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Old 06-14-18, 03:31 PM
  #11937  
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Originally Posted by furiousferret
How much variance do you guys have in your 5 > 20 minute power? The variance between my 5 to 40 minute power is only 30 watts, which seems like it should be higher (Coggan Scale is 50 watts).

To be fair, none of those numbers are test effort, and aren't fresh. They're just my best wattages for the year... except for the 40 minute, which I could have went a few watts better.
Looking at my best numbers this year, for me it's about 95W (5' @ 428 vs 20' @ 332). Sadly both of those numbers were in January, current numbers are about 4-5% lower.

2-5 minute power seems to be one of my strengths (part of why I've taken up Pursuit on the track this year).
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Old 06-14-18, 03:40 PM
  #11938  
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I don't really like finger point at genetic advantage; its definitely there I just don't think its in the best taste as it negates everything else they've done to get there. @rubiksoval doesn't really count people like us. He's counting the guys he races against (which happens to be the top .05%). I'm sure guys like Alexander Kristoff legitimately think they have a crap sprint because they compare it to the 10 best in the world.

Even for a 'TT Specialist' profile it seems like I should have some better variance. My 20 minute is 282 and my 5 is 306. Its been close to that since 2014 whenever my CTL is around 80-90, the big difference being instead of being 155, I'm now at 144 (and dropping). It wasn't that I was fat, its that I lost a ton of muscle mass after my crash. I guess having a tube in your chest for a few days will do that. I don't think those numbers are much lower than @mattm, so I just have to figure out the short stuff.

I think this all ties back to my bio-mechanical issues. Yesterday though I was able to realize I was pedaling wrong, and actually correct it and pedal properly. Granted, that wasn't immediate it took about 15 seconds but its a positive step. Maybe some see that as an excuse, and I guess by definition it is. Once I fix that its going to be interesting to see if I actually improve or just stagnate.
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Old 06-14-18, 03:51 PM
  #11939  
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If your 20 and 5 are that close together I will bet that focusing on various vo2 workouts will kick your fitness into high gear.
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Old 06-14-18, 05:25 PM
  #11940  
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Originally Posted by aaronmcd
I've averaged ~625 since I started riding November 2013. Where's my genetic advantage?
pretty certain your w/kg is superior to mine everywhere under 5 minutes. If you can't work that into results it's not a talent issue.
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Old 06-15-18, 08:25 AM
  #11941  
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Originally Posted by aaronmcd
If all the race is is surge and coast like with a hill or hairpin, you're gonna need high np, and while it may not exactly match FTP, it's definitely related. Without a good threshold you can't surge and coast as much (unless you are Hack who regularly rides np=115% ftp or so lol!).
I can't really do this anymore.

tl'dr fixed some medical stuff and power has corrected.

Just under a year ago I was fed up with training and sucking at efforts longer than 5 minutes. I think my FTP was like 300 at 80 kg. But, I could go out and rip 10 w/kg for minute intervals which led to my higher than believable NP. I think my best ever was like 80 TSS in 30 min.

On a longer team ride last year I was getting dropped left and right on false flats, climbs, etc. I was fed up, tired of sucking, and told teammates I was pretty much done. One of them suggested I go get my blood tested because I exhibited signs of anemia. I did get my blood tested and learned that hematocrit/hemoglobin were really low (like in the 20's for crit). Doc put me on iron supplements and did some add'l blood testing. Doc concluded that I have celiac and weened me off iron supplements while cutting out wheat. Crit jumped up to "normal" (~45??) and I started feeling good on the bike. My previous 20 min power was done outside in ideal conditions and I pushed that up by ~50 watts while on an indoor trainer. Associated FTP jump meant going out and ripping crazy NP rides was much much harder and I don't do it often.
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Old 06-15-18, 09:15 AM
  #11942  
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Fiesta Island 30"on/30"off 3x10' sets on the TT bike.
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Old 06-15-18, 11:46 AM
  #11943  
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Originally Posted by hack

Just under a year ago I was fed up with training and sucking at efforts longer than 5 minutes. I think my FTP was like 300 at 80 kg. But, I could go out and rip 10 w/kg for minute intervals which led to my higher than believable NP. I think my best ever was like 80 TSS in 30 min.

NP is a broken system in that it can be gamed pretty easily with stuff like that. I've done like 375 NP for an hour by pedaling really hard for 6-7 minutes with 30-60 sec intervals. It's pretty dumb in that way.
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Old 06-15-18, 01:07 PM
  #11944  
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I can see that. I did one where Training Peaks calculated 85tss in 44'. It was a short hill in the big ring day. NP was 289w and AP was 120w.
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Old 06-15-18, 01:53 PM
  #11945  
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Hit a plastic cap nail 3 miles into my ride. Somehow didn't have c02, so I had a 3 mile barefoot walk home. I was able to find 3 other nails on the road so it wasn't a total waste....
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Old 06-15-18, 02:01 PM
  #11946  
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Mt Tam east peak yesterday afternoon on a whim with a friend.
Haven't done a longer ride with this guy yet. He is the youngest guy in the universe that rides a recumbent (around my age) and also turns out his speed drastically decreases on a big hill (I guess a heavy recumbent will do that). So most of the 55 mile ride was ridiculously easy, but I did throw in a couple 7 minute efforts @ 120% on the way up the hill.

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Old 06-16-18, 07:37 AM
  #11947  
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Originally Posted by furiousferret
Hit a plastic cap nail 3 miles into my ride. Somehow didn't have c02, so I had a 3 mile barefoot walk home. I was able to find 3 other nails on the road so it wasn't a total waste....
On my way to the track yesterday for a couple of sprints. As I near SD Velodrome, I hear a pssssssst come from the back. I pull into track and check my bike. The valve went bad on the rear tire tube - no spare tubes. I drove home...no workout.
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Old 06-16-18, 12:08 PM
  #11948  
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Raincross - Big Crash. About two blocks from the official 'start' guys were jockeying for position. Its over 100 riders so people want to be in the front when the hill starts. A rider two rows in front of me was chatting, riding with one hand on the hood motioning with his other hand and not paying attention. Someone called out a pothole, chatty guy went too wide and clipped a rider trying to make a pass. I slammed on the brakes at about 29 mph, ass over rear wheel going straight into a downed rider. I was planning how to crash (falling on my side seemed like a good option) when the downed bike slipped and I went through a tiny gap and stayed up. The cool thing is I think subconsciously I knew even before the impact that was the best route; the rider would go down and pedal would catch moving the bike to the left. Its like @mattm melded with my mind and said, 'Trust your feelings Luke furiousferret...'

After dragging stuff off the road and waiting for the paramedics I was done and just went home. What ticked me off was it was 100% avoidable, that rider was too comfortable and at the speed (27-29) we were going he should have been paying attention.


Originally Posted by Hermes
On my way to the track yesterday for a couple of sprints. As I near SD Velodrome, I hear a pssssssst come from the back. I pull into track and check my bike. The valve went bad on the rear tire tube - no spare tubes. I drove home...no workout.
On the bright side at least we got to ride bikes....
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Old 06-16-18, 04:16 PM
  #11949  
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Aw too bad on your aborted workouts/rides @Hermes and @furiousferret.

Yesterday was a rest day for me. Today: 2.5 hrs on the mtb. Rode locally, secenery is uninspiring but the trails are very fun. Rolled right along on stuff that previously seemed unrideable to me, PRed a bunch of segments, went a little long, 28 miles/2500 ft of climbing on a bottle and a half of water.

Really smitten with the new mtb, that bike is hot.
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Old 06-16-18, 08:51 PM
  #11950  
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Originally Posted by furiousferret
Raincross - Big Crash. About two blocks from the official 'start' guys were jockeying for position. Its over 100 riders so people want to be in the front when the hill starts. A rider two rows in front of me was chatting, riding with one hand on the hood motioning with his other hand and not paying attention. Someone called out a pothole, chatty guy went too wide and clipped a rider trying to make a pass. I slammed on the brakes at about 29 mph, ass over rear wheel going straight into a downed rider. I was planning how to crash (falling on my side seemed like a good option) when the downed bike slipped and I went through a tiny gap and stayed up. The cool thing is I think subconsciously I knew even before the impact that was the best route; the rider would go down and pedal would catch moving the bike to the left. Its like @mattm melded with my mind and said, 'Trust your feelings Luke furiousferret...'

After dragging stuff off the road and waiting for the paramedics I was done and just went home. What ticked me off was it was 100% avoidable, that rider was too comfortable and at the speed (27-29) we were going he should have been paying attention.
Ah, that explains the disturbance in the force I felt..

Glad you stayed upright! Hope nobody was hurt too bad.
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