Where are the German bikes?
12-11-19, 07:43 PM
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Washington County, Vermont, USA
Posts: 3,776
Bikes: 1966 Dawes Double Blue, 1976 Raleigh Gran Sport, 1975 Raleigh Sprite 27, 1980 Univega Viva Sport, 1971 Gitane Tour de France, 1984 Lotus Classique, 1976 Motobecane Grand Record
Mentioned: 77 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 764 Post(s)
Liked 656 Times
in
348 Posts
Where are the German bikes?
Why didn't the Germans export bicycles in significant numbers back in bike-boom days? They obviously knew how to build quality products for export--look at all those VW beetles and DAM fishing reels. "Made in West Germany" was a much-respected mark, as I recall--it was basically the opposite of "Made in Japan."
No special reason for me to wonder about this. I think it's just that it's the middle of December and sunset happens here at about 4:15.
I suppose I might just as well have titled this thread "show your German bikes. Well, okay--fish 'em out and let's have a look.
No special reason for me to wonder about this. I think it's just that it's the middle of December and sunset happens here at about 4:15.
I suppose I might just as well have titled this thread "show your German bikes. Well, okay--fish 'em out and let's have a look.
__________________
www.redclovercomponents.com
"Progress might have been all right once, but it has gone on too long."
--Ogden Nash
www.redclovercomponents.com
"Progress might have been all right once, but it has gone on too long."
--Ogden Nash
12-11-19, 07:51 PM
#2
Stop reading my posts!
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 12,574
Mentioned: 89 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1440 Post(s)
Liked 1,058 Times
in
783 Posts
Rickerts
Dürkopp
Diament
Kalkhoff
and all these from Classic Rendezvous
Classic lightweight vintage bicycles of Germany
apparently some Volkscycles were made in Germany (but I only saw Japanese made examples BITD)
Dürkopp
Diament
Kalkhoff
and all these from Classic Rendezvous
Classic lightweight vintage bicycles of Germany
apparently some Volkscycles were made in Germany (but I only saw Japanese made examples BITD)
Likes For unworthy1:
12-11-19, 08:02 PM
#3
PM me your cotters
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: ATL
Posts: 3,241
Mentioned: 80 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1137 Post(s)
Liked 588 Times
in
420 Posts
Let's not forget Edi Strobl. I found this one while working in Munich. I found one very similar last year on eBay but at a whopping $650, same color, my size. Really appreciated his earlier stuff.
(still looking ...)
(still looking ...)
Last edited by francophile; 12-11-19 at 08:30 PM.
12-11-19, 08:08 PM
#4
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,321
Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 767 Post(s)
Liked 1,898 Times
in
889 Posts
Rabeneick, Hercules...speaking of Hercules
I know, I know, just a folder. But a start, eh?
The Fichtel & Sachs Duomatic hub is pretty cool.
I know, I know, just a folder. But a start, eh?
The Fichtel & Sachs Duomatic hub is pretty cool.
12-11-19, 10:43 PM
#5
Banned
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 6,480
Mentioned: 93 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1361 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 423 Times
in
282 Posts
Why so few? For one, Meister Fritz Fleck of Mannheim made approx.two dozen of these gusset titanium bikes. One of which held together long enough to win a gold in team pursuit at the '72 Olympics. Prost!
Likes For crank_addict:
12-12-19, 01:55 AM
#6
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 638
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 346 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 396 Times
in
259 Posts
Made in Japan has been superior to Made in Germany since 1965!
Sure, in the 1950's, German products were quality and Japanese goods were not so good.
The Germans have been famous for quality engineered products, both then and now, but the Japanese do it even better!
Sure, in the 1950's, German products were quality and Japanese goods were not so good.
The Germans have been famous for quality engineered products, both then and now, but the Japanese do it even better!
Last edited by StanSeven; 12-12-19 at 08:21 AM. Reason: Removed off topic non-cycling content
Likes For Vintage Schwinn:
12-12-19, 08:49 AM
#7
Strong Walker
Let's not forget Edi Strobl. I found this one while working in Munich. I found one very similar last year on eBay but at a whopping $650, same color, my size. Really appreciated his earlier stuff.
(still looking ...)
(still looking ...)
There were/are some real "artisan" builders around, Rickert (Dortmund) has been named; who may be the most popular of them. Then there was Redl (Munich), Altinger (Munich), Marschall (NRW), Meral (Munich), Nöll and countless others; Wiessmann is swiss but is germany-based now (Badenweiler/black forest). Modern artisans include Vogel, but also Lightweight, Spin, AX Lightness, German Carbon Group, even Syntace/Liteville might be named...
Out of the oldtimers, Dürkopp saw some distribution abroad, other big brands included Patria, Rabeneick, Adler, Bauer, Stollenwerk, Panter, Zündapp, Opel, Miele and several others. Although being indutry-sized, the majority of the distribution was national and not very export-based. Not to forget Diamant, FES or Textima.
Last edited by martl; 12-12-19 at 08:58 AM.
Likes For martl:
12-12-19, 09:13 AM
#8
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: GWN
Posts: 2,537
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1858 Post(s)
Liked 606 Times
in
403 Posts
Made in Japan has been superior to Made in Germany since 1965!
Sure, in the 1950's, German products were quality and Japanese goods were not so good.
The Germans have been famous for quality engineered products, both then and now, but the Japanese do it even better!
Sure, in the 1950's, German products were quality and Japanese goods were not so good.
The Germans have been famous for quality engineered products, both then and now, but the Japanese do it even better!
12-12-19, 09:54 AM
#9
Fat Guy on a Little Bike
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 15,944
Bikes: Two wheeled ones
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1254 Post(s)
Liked 345 Times
in
174 Posts
It's something that's come up here before...
Some answers were:
A lack of cycling infrastructure/culture relative to some other Euro countries.
Relatively low profit margins comparable to other industries, and less access to shipping hurting margins (explanation to US exports).
Higher labor costs on a lower dollar product with less domestic market
Higher import pricing on Reynolds, or Columbus, tubing and components.
Cultural focus on industry/technology
Lack of pre-war cycling manufacture
Some answers were:
A lack of cycling infrastructure/culture relative to some other Euro countries.
Relatively low profit margins comparable to other industries, and less access to shipping hurting margins (explanation to US exports).
Higher labor costs on a lower dollar product with less domestic market
Higher import pricing on Reynolds, or Columbus, tubing and components.
Cultural focus on industry/technology
Lack of pre-war cycling manufacture
Likes For KonAaron Snake:
12-12-19, 11:02 AM
#10
Bikes are okay, I guess.
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Posts: 6,938
Bikes: Waterford Paramount Touring, Giant CFM-2, Raleigh Sports 3-speeds in M23 & L23, Schwinn Cimarron oddball build, Marin Palisades Trail dropbar conversion, Nishiki Cresta GT
Mentioned: 69 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2647 Post(s)
Liked 2,446 Times
in
1,557 Posts
Kettler did some aluminum bikes in the '80s and they looked nice but only their kids' wheel goods took off around here.
12-12-19, 11:06 AM
#11
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Menomonee Falls, WI
Posts: 1,832
Bikes: 1984 Schwinn Supersport, 1988 Trek 400T, 1977 Trek TX900, 1982 Bianchi Champione del Mondo, 1978 Raleigh Supercourse, 1986 Trek 400 Elance, 1991 Waterford PDG OS Paramount, 1971 Schwinn Sports Tourer, 1985 Trek 670
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 603 Post(s)
Liked 1,062 Times
in
534 Posts
I’ve got German tires on all my bikes, does that count?
Tim
Tim
12-12-19, 11:43 AM
#12
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada - burrrrr!
Posts: 11,674
Bikes: 1958 Rabeneick 120D, 1968 Legnano Gran Premio, 196? Torpado Professional, 2000 Marinoni Piuma
Mentioned: 210 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1372 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1,749 Times
in
937 Posts
Got this one, a Rabeneick 120d from the late fifties, out of Texas. Paint is half done, waiting for art when I get back to Canada in the Spring...
__________________
"98% of the bikes I buy are projects".
"98% of the bikes I buy are projects".
12-12-19, 04:54 PM
#13
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Washington County, Vermont, USA
Posts: 3,776
Bikes: 1966 Dawes Double Blue, 1976 Raleigh Gran Sport, 1975 Raleigh Sprite 27, 1980 Univega Viva Sport, 1971 Gitane Tour de France, 1984 Lotus Classique, 1976 Motobecane Grand Record
Mentioned: 77 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 764 Post(s)
Liked 656 Times
in
348 Posts
Okay, I understand that maybe Germany didn't have a sizeable bike-production capacity in, say 1968. But look at Randy's bike, pictured above! The Germans obviously knew how to make good-looking bikes.
So here we are, it's 1968 and the US bike boom is really starting to boom. Within a year or so, every bike shop in the land is crying out for more bikes. It was demand with a capital D. They didn't even have to be good bikes--look at the low-end French and Italian crap that was selling like hotcakes in those days. You would think that someone in Hamburg or Dusseldorf would have figured out that they could make money at it. Why didn't they? Why was there no bicycle equivalent to the Volkswagen? I can see why maybe Spain or Poland didn't--they weren't already exporting consumer goods to the US in huge quantities. But the Germans were. There was demand in spades, they had access to capital, they knew how to make machinery, they knew how to load stuff onto ships--I just don't get it.
But then, I'm not much of a businessman. So why should I understand that when I don't understand anything else?
__________________
www.redclovercomponents.com
"Progress might have been all right once, but it has gone on too long."
--Ogden Nash
www.redclovercomponents.com
"Progress might have been all right once, but it has gone on too long."
--Ogden Nash
Likes For VtwinVince:
12-12-19, 08:30 PM
#15
Phyllo-buster
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 8,844
Bikes: roadsters, club bikes, fixed and classic
Mentioned: 133 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2297 Post(s)
Liked 2,047 Times
in
1,253 Posts
12-13-19, 04:56 AM
#16
Strong Walker
It's something that's come up here before...
Some answers were:
A lack of cycling infrastructure/culture relative to some other Euro countries.
Relatively low profit margins comparable to other industries, and less access to shipping hurting margins (explanation to US exports).
Higher labor costs on a lower dollar product with less domestic market
Higher import pricing on Reynolds, or Columbus, tubing and components.
Cultural focus on industry/technology
Lack of pre-war cycling manufacture
Some answers were:
A lack of cycling infrastructure/culture relative to some other Euro countries.
Relatively low profit margins comparable to other industries, and less access to shipping hurting margins (explanation to US exports).
Higher labor costs on a lower dollar product with less domestic market
Higher import pricing on Reynolds, or Columbus, tubing and components.
Cultural focus on industry/technology
Lack of pre-war cycling manufacture
Bike usage was huge up until the Wirtschaftswunder, in 1936 45-60% of the workers used the bicycle to commute, and there were 10000km of bike paths.
Most companies came from the small-mechanical-goods production and transitioned from making stuff like sewing machines to bicycle production, and many progressed to make motorcycles and cars - Opel, for example. Bit of a similarity to companies like Bianchi, Peugeot or Automoto really.
12-13-19, 08:47 AM
#17
Fat Guy on a Little Bike
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 15,944
Bikes: Two wheeled ones
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1254 Post(s)
Liked 345 Times
in
174 Posts
Eh? i disagree. Factories like Brennabor, Dürkopp, diamant were among the largest in pre WW2 Europe. (Opel, for example, produced 15000 bikes - in 1898!). At MIFA, 700 emplyees produced 80.000 bicycles in '27.
Bike usage was huge up until the Wirtschaftswunder, in 1936 45-60% of the workers used the bicycle to commute, and there were 10000km of bike paths.
Most companies came from the small-mechanical-goods production and transitioned from making stuff like sewing machines to bicycle production, and many progressed to make motorcycles and cars - Opel, for example. Bit of a similarity to companies like Bianchi, Peugeot or Automoto really.
Bike usage was huge up until the Wirtschaftswunder, in 1936 45-60% of the workers used the bicycle to commute, and there were 10000km of bike paths.
Most companies came from the small-mechanical-goods production and transitioned from making stuff like sewing machines to bicycle production, and many progressed to make motorcycles and cars - Opel, for example. Bit of a similarity to companies like Bianchi, Peugeot or Automoto really.
That said, the production figures you site for 1927 are still likely a fraction of Peugeot/Raleigh, and my (limited) understanding is that Germany was more an importer than exporter of bikes. In addition to importing, you had the theft of bikes from other countries in the war years.
As far as the "Wirtschaftswunder", I can think of other words to describe it
12-13-19, 09:32 AM
#18
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,321
Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 767 Post(s)
Liked 1,898 Times
in
889 Posts
Eh? i disagree. Factories like Brennabor, Dürkopp, diamant were among the largest in pre WW2 Europe. (Opel, for example, produced 15000 bikes - in 1898!). At MIFA, 700 emplyees produced 80.000 bicycles in '27.
Bike usage was huge up until the Wirtschaftswunder, in 1936 45-60% of the workers used the bicycle to commute, and there were 10000km of bike paths.
Most companies came from the small-mechanical-goods production and transitioned from making stuff like sewing machines to bicycle production, and many progressed to make motorcycles and cars - Opel, for example. Bit of a similarity to companies like Bianchi, Peugeot or Automoto really.
Bike usage was huge up until the Wirtschaftswunder, in 1936 45-60% of the workers used the bicycle to commute, and there were 10000km of bike paths.
Most companies came from the small-mechanical-goods production and transitioned from making stuff like sewing machines to bicycle production, and many progressed to make motorcycles and cars - Opel, for example. Bit of a similarity to companies like Bianchi, Peugeot or Automoto really.
I suppose we could consider one of the biggest bicycle producers ever. Ignaz Schwinn started in Germany and emigrated to the US. The industry was there, but perhaps not the market, hence the move? Adolph Arnold was also a German immigrant.
12-13-19, 09:56 AM
#19
Veteran, Pacifist
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Seattle area
Posts: 13,327
Bikes: Bikes??? Thought this was social media?!?
Mentioned: 284 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3897 Post(s)
Liked 4,829 Times
in
2,228 Posts
and if you find a decent German road bike....the asking price (in my experience) is 2X above what I would consider a generous offer. So, i have yet to close a deal. But still in the hunt.
__________________
Vintage, modern, e-road. It is a big cycling universe.
Vintage, modern, e-road. It is a big cycling universe.
12-13-19, 01:09 PM
#20
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Oakland, CA
Posts: 3,265
Bikes: '82 Univega Competizione, '72 Motobecane Grand Record, '83 Mercian KOM Touring, '85 Univega Alpina Uno, '76 Eisentraut Limited
Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1088 Post(s)
Liked 1,205 Times
in
701 Posts
Back to pics, here is one I spotted outside a cafe in Dusseldorf a couple of years ago:
12-13-19, 01:48 PM
#21
Disco Infiltrator
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Folsom CA
Posts: 13,446
Bikes: Stormchaser, Paramount, Tilt, Samba tandem
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3126 Post(s)
Liked 2,102 Times
in
1,366 Posts
Wasn't the bike boom era pretty well overlapped with a very strong deutschmark?
__________________
Genesis 49:16-17
Genesis 49:16-17
12-13-19, 04:29 PM
#22
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Washington County, Vermont, USA
Posts: 3,776
Bikes: 1966 Dawes Double Blue, 1976 Raleigh Gran Sport, 1975 Raleigh Sprite 27, 1980 Univega Viva Sport, 1971 Gitane Tour de France, 1984 Lotus Classique, 1976 Motobecane Grand Record
Mentioned: 77 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 764 Post(s)
Liked 656 Times
in
348 Posts
It might have been, but Volkswagen still managed to sell an awful lot of inexpensive cars in the US and elsewhere.
__________________
www.redclovercomponents.com
"Progress might have been all right once, but it has gone on too long."
--Ogden Nash
www.redclovercomponents.com
"Progress might have been all right once, but it has gone on too long."
--Ogden Nash
12-13-19, 05:56 PM
#23
Extraordinary Magnitude
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Waukesha WI
Posts: 13,644
Bikes: 1978 Trek TX700; 1978/79 Trek 736; 1984 Specialized Stumpjumper Sport; 1984 Schwinn Voyageur SP; 1985 Trek 620; 1985 Trek 720; 1986 Trek 400 Elance; 1987 Schwinn High Sierra; 1990 Miyata 1000LT
Mentioned: 84 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2607 Post(s)
Liked 1,696 Times
in
935 Posts
You know the Germans always make good stuff
__________________
*Recipient of the 2006 Time Magazine "Person Of The Year" Award*
Commence to jigglin’ huh?!?!
"But hey, always love to hear from opinionated amateurs." -says some guy to Mr. Marshall.
Commence to jigglin’ huh?!?!
"But hey, always love to hear from opinionated amateurs." -says some guy to Mr. Marshall.
12-13-19, 06:17 PM
#24
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: se MIch.
Posts: 2,301
Bikes: 1938 claud butler,1983 Basso,teledyne titan,teocali super,nrs,1993 stumpjumper fsr,Paramountain,Paramount Buell(sold),4 banger,Zaskar LE,Colnago Master Ibex MTB,1987ish,.etc....
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 800 Post(s)
Liked 2,962 Times
in
1,492 Posts
think they are there,you just have to live there to appreciate whats made there.lived there for over a year & their bike stores are like no other,very elaborate.
no one mentioning Focus? or storck? https://www.storckworld.com/en/ https://www.bike-discount.de/en/focus_bike
no one mentioning Focus? or storck? https://www.storckworld.com/en/ https://www.bike-discount.de/en/focus_bike
Last edited by '02 nrs; 12-13-19 at 06:33 PM.
12-13-19, 06:37 PM
#25
feros ferio
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: www.ci.encinitas.ca.us
Posts: 21,793
Bikes: 1959 Capo Modell Campagnolo; 1960 Capo Sieger (2); 1962 Carlton Franco Suisse; 1970 Peugeot UO-8; 1982 Bianchi Campione d'Italia; 1988 Schwinn Project KOM-10;
Mentioned: 44 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1391 Post(s)
Liked 1,322 Times
in
835 Posts
I would not call the SunTour slant planograph "not their own design." As soon as the patent expired, the rest of the world copied Japan, because the design was so compelling and superior to anything else out there.
__________________
"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069