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🚴 Why MUPs Fail

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🚴 Why MUPs Fail

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Old 07-20-18, 01:42 AM
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🚴 Why MUPs Fail

Below are some excerpts and comments (from another related A&S thread), as to why MUP don't work well for cyclists:

Originally Posted by toast3d View Post
Put a bell on your bike.
I ordered my bell before I ordered my bike.
Originally Posted by Doohickie View Post
It's called the velodrome. Just make sure you watch out for the other cyclists.
In that case, home cycling would be better. At least that way you have illusion of going somewhere other than in a circle.
Originally Posted by Doohickie View Post
Sitting on your couch isn't safe.
I already proved that much in my earlier thread.

Originally Posted by igosolo View Post
"On your left" means very different things to different people.
And nothing to some people.
Try it with a big group of pedestrians on the MUP. Some go diving to the right, some left, some freeze like a deer in headlights and others are oblivious you said anything at all, Might as well shout "grenade" as you get the same effect.
If you think they will all move to one side/the right, you'll be sadly disappointed. They "scatter" -- in every direction -- guaranteeing you can't avoid running into someone no matter what action you take.[quote]

I avoid the MUP and rarely ride it on the weekends. On the rare ride where I do, it means slow down and enjoy the scenery more that day. And when I pass, if I have a wide berth, I don't say a word as it is safer for everyone in my opinion. If I have to say something, I am totally ready to come to a dead stop.
You might think so, but the legality works differently. If its multi-use you have to warn pedestrians as you approach. Otherwise, you stand the chance of suffering any liability should an accident occur. See above

Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
So are the "river" trails in Southern California (SART, SGRT, LART) unique to SoCal? There are long stretches marked BIKES ONLY in big white letters.
Pfff, like that means anything. There's no penalty, so people ignore those completely. As you can see from the video. pedestrian simple consider bike only lane as extra sidewalk.
I can go 10 miles and not see anyone on foot.
I wish that were the case where I ride. Somehow I even have to avoid peds on high-speed stretches of road that transition back to the paths.
Sure, the closer you get to the beach, more people. But nothing like I'm seeing in posted images-- only The Strand has that kind of density, and it's basically a paved boardwalk following the coastline, with countless signs yelling at everyone about the speed limit-- which is like 5mph. Inland (at least) what we have of MUPs are very short in length, and sparsely populated. Especially in the summer. Not a lot of joggers and dog walkers when it's 103.

I love the SART. I'm out there at the very least once a week. Not a lot of people out here, I must say
:



Sweet. ^^ But pedestrians, dog walkers, etc. will find the paths even when they have alternate routes. Only a physical barrier (note the fence) will keep them at bay. And even then, sometimes you'll find holes in it.
Originally Posted by Bah Humbug View Post
Why do you think there's a place where you can just ride with reckless abandon? You basically can't do that anywhere in a car, either. You shouldn't do that anywhere while walking. Yes, you have to be alert and ride at a speed appropriate for conditions wherever you ride.

However, it's perfectly safe to ride on the right roads, for the most part. Sidewalks suck. The MUP is another sidewalk, only it doesn't go along a street. You can ride there, but it's not a suitable training ground.

The only places you can really just go crazy are velodromes, veloways, and racetracks (when you can get on one).
Who said anything about reckless? I'm talking about not having to be the only one responsible for safety. Even a pedestrian crossing the street has the responsibility to look both ways before crossing. However, if there is an accident its not immediately the fault of the motorist. I'm not talking around a school area, I'm referring to other adults who need to share the responsibility of good sense choices for safety and awareness for themselves and their small ones. If you know cyclist share the path then its not the time or place to zone out staring at the sky. I've had instance where I've come across groups that block the entire path (even when there's room on either side) so that I had to stop, dismount, walk my bike around them then get back on and ride away. There are a million places to stand and sightsee, but only one path.
Originally Posted by kbarch View Post
Yeah, MUPs can be pretty disorderly, kind of the Wild West. Maybe eventually more people will learn how to behave on them, but they have to become either more dense or more well-patrolled in order for that to happen any time soon.

On my short little Citibike commutes between the Port Authority and office, I'll take it easy and just stick to the protected bike lanes. Whenever other cyclists go zipping past, I want to tell them to ride in the traffic lane. I scrupulously avoid those bike lanes when I want to go fast - its quite easy and comfortable to keep up with traffic on the avenues, even on Citibike - and it feels a heck of a lot safer than trying to make similar speed in the bike lane.
The only way that will happen is if there is a physical barrier that peds can't circumvent. Even when there are two sides conspicuously marked people will still walk (casually) on the "Bike Only" side. BTW, I'm glad you said disorderly and not dangerous. MUP are not inherently dangerous except where pedestrians don't adhere to the rules.
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Old 07-20-18, 06:07 AM
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So, you want thousands of people to help you pay for an MUP, then you want them to stay off of it so that you can use it for your purposes and you don't have to deal with the others who helped pay for it. Or, if they do use it, you want them to use it in a way that is most conducive to your enjoyment of the MUP, not theirs.

Gotcha. Let us know how that works out for you.

Sorry, just kidding. Seriously, you have some choices: you can take the MUP as it is and enjoy it as it is; you can opt out and not use it; or you can make yourself miserable by fussing and fuming about all of the other jerks on the MUP, which has exactly zero effect on how others choose to use the public MUP. Or, I suppose (this being the Advocacy & Safety forum), you could form a group to advocate for the creation and enforcement of MUP rules with an aim towards maximizing your enjoyment of the MUP.

Personally, I choose to take the MUP as it is. It was paid for with public funds, and I'm happy to see others enjoy using it even if their use impinges upon mine. The MUP I've used is not appropriate for fitness cycling, it is appropriate for teaching kids to ride away from traffic, for other fitness uses (walking, running), for strolling and looking at nature, and for dog walkers. That's just how it is.
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Old 07-20-18, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by noimagination View Post
So, you want thousands of people to help you pay for an MUP, then you want them to stay off of it so that you can use it for your purposes and you don't have to deal with the others who helped pay for it. Or, if they do use it, you want them to use it in a way that is most conducive to your enjoyment of the MUP, not theirs.


Gotcha. Let us know how that works out for you.


Sorry, just kidding. Seriously, you have some choices: you can take the MUP as it is and enjoy it as it is; you can opt out and not use it; or you can make yourself miserable by fussing and fuming about all of the other jerks on the MUP, which has exactly zero effect on how others choose to use the public MUP. Or, I suppose (this being the Advocacy & Safety forum), you could form a group to advocate for the creation and enforcement of MUP rules with an aim towards maximizing your enjoyment of the MUP.


Personally, I choose to take the MUP as it is. It was paid for with public funds, and I'm happy to see others enjoy using it even if their use impinges upon mine. The MUP I've used is not appropriate for fitness cycling, it is appropriate for teaching kids to ride away from traffic, for other fitness uses (walking, running), for strolling and looking at nature, and for dog walkers. That's just how it is.
And therein lies the inherent problem: if paths are for kids to "learn to ride" then where do they go to ride when they grow up? As for the remaining, can't all of the rest be done just as effectively -- and even safer -- in parks and other safer recreational areas?

Since we're talking about taxpayer supported facilities consider for a moment you and your friends, family, etc. gathered in the park for a picnic, ball game or other outdoor recreational activity when someone on a bike decides to ride around and through where you are set up.

That likely wouldn't sit very well with most folks even though the ride could claims the park belongs to everyone. What would be your immediate response/suggestion to the cyclist?

Most likely you'd suggest they go use the path. Which would be an appreciate suggestion if the situation were ideal. Meanwhile, your group gets to chose either area and can freely encroach on all sections of the MUP including those specifically designated and marked for the purpose of cycling only. Funny how people tend to think only of things to their advantage, and not to the advantage of others. Go figure.
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Old 07-20-18, 09:50 AM
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I just want to know where you find

🚴

on the Subject Line.
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Old 07-20-18, 10:13 AM
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Big advantages to the MUP (some of them) that sometimes makes up for all of these "fail" reasons: nice cool shade during these 100+ heat index days, relatively flat, and you don't deal with vehicular traffic. When you're not trying to ride fast, or doing intervals or something else totally inappropriate, it can be a great ride.
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Old 07-20-18, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by mtb_addict View Post
I just want to know where you find

🚴

on the Subject Line.
https://emojipedia.org/man-biking/

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Old 07-20-18, 10:54 AM
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I live on a 25-mile (and growing) MUP. At this time of year, it’s very busy: walkers, skaters, children wobbling on their training wheels, ordinary tourists on rentals enjoying bicycling they don’t get to do the other 51 weeks out of the year, the occasional whippet-thin Lycra-clad cyclist bent low over his drops trying to break Mile-a-Minute Murphy’s record. And the Unindicted Co-Conspirator and I plugging along, enjoying ourselves in retirement. It’s all good.

The Friends of the Cape Cod Rail Trail set up a count last Saturday at the halfway point. The busiest time was between 12-1, second busiest was 9-10. If you want to really zip along, between 6 and 8 p.m. is best.

Sorry if people think the MUP belongs solely to their favorite form of riding.
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Old 07-20-18, 11:13 AM
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Wait. One thread of this crap wasn't enough?
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Originally Posted by bragi "However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."
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Old 07-20-18, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Nightcap View Post
I live on a 25-mile (and growing) MUP. At this time of year, it’s very busy: walkers, skaters, children wobbling on their training wheels, ordinary tourists on rentals enjoying bicycling they don’t get to do the other 51 weeks out of the year, the occasional whippet-thin Lycra-clad cyclist bent low over his drops trying to break Mile-a-Minute Murphy’s record. And the Unindicted Co-Conspirator and I plugging along, enjoying ourselves in retirement. It’s all good.

The Friends of the Cape Cod Rail Trail set up a count last Saturday at the halfway point. The busiest time was between 12-1, second busiest was 9-10. If you want to really zip along, between 6 and 8 p.m. is best.

Sorry if people think the MUP belongs solely to their favorite form of riding.
I don't know of a single soul that thinks that. Do you?
Originally Posted by Doohickie View Post
Wait. One thread of this crap wasn't enough?
You didn't read it. Its not the same Timmy. Similar subject but one is Safety, the other Advocacy.
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Old 07-20-18, 11:23 AM
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It's still crap.
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Originally Posted by bragi "However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."
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Old 07-20-18, 11:26 AM
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MUPs "fail" because cyclists tend to treat other MUP users like motorists treat cyclists riding on public streets.
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Old 07-20-18, 11:55 AM
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mups mean multi-use, not cylists rule Yes, as a cyclist you have to watch out for others and yes it is frustrating. Deal with it or ride elsewhere. The MUPS in area are that, there are none labled for cycling only and on average there are way more other users than cylists.

The only fail is the self-centered focus of this thread
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Old 07-20-18, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by genec View Post
MUPs "fail" because cyclists tend to treat other MUP users like motorists treat cyclists riding on public streets.
I have yet to find a MUP like that. Every single one I've tried has been dominated -- overwhelmingly -- by pedestrian. Because I have to watch out for everybody going in all directions, my average speed on the MUP is 1/2 of what it is on the road with constant traffic signals and stop signs.
Originally Posted by squirtdad View Post
mups mean multi-use, not cylists rule Yes, as a cyclist you have to watch out for others and yes it is frustrating. Deal with it or ride elsewhere. The MUPS in area are that, there are none labled for cycling only and on average there are way more other users than cylists.

The only fail is the self-centered focus of this thread
You didn't read any of my posts did you?

Last edited by KraneXL; 07-20-18 at 12:04 PM.
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Old 07-20-18, 12:40 PM
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It may really depend on one's MUP, and time of day.



Around here, most of the MUPS are heavily used by cyclists, walkers, etc.. but there is generally enough space that one can get quite some distance between having to slow down and yield to pedestrians.

So, the big question.
If cyclists can't share a Multi-Use-Path with pedestrians and joggers...
Should cars share roads with bicycles?
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Old 07-20-18, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
It may really depend on one's MUP, and time of day.



Around here, most of the MUPS are heavily used by cyclists, walkers, etc.. but there is generally enough space that one can get quite some distance between having to slow down and yield to pedestrians.

So, the big question.
If cyclists can't share a Multi-Use-Path with pedestrians and joggers...
Should cars share roads with bicycles
?
Not only are there laws to the road, there are enforcers and penalties for violating them. No such instance exist on MUPs. So no, Clifford that's not a adequate parallel. In any event, since nobody's reading maybe this video will help explain.

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Old 07-20-18, 01:26 PM
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Another bridge, another river, same result.

See wow well "enforcement" is working here?

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Old 07-20-18, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by genec View Post
MUPs "fail" because cyclists tend to treat other MUP users like motorists treat cyclists riding on public streets.
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Old 07-20-18, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
I have yet to find a MUP like that. Every single one I've tried has been dominated -- overwhelmingly -- by pedestrian.
I'd say cyclists here are pretty much 'entitled' when is comes to using MUPs. If you walk in the middle of the path, don't hard leash your dog, let you kid run wild ... you will get yelled at. As crazy as MUPS are, I'd say the non-cycling users up here are pretty well trained.

I feel a little uncomfortable saying it, but Critical Mass' angry activism in Norcal seems to have cemented a 'don't screw with us' attitude between cyclists and the rest of the community & politicians, plus all the good works done by our biking coalitions working with local govts. Then again, maybe it is wishful thinking on my part...
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Old 07-20-18, 02:26 PM
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Cyclists need to walk their bikes if the MUP is heavy with pedestrians.
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Old 07-20-18, 02:43 PM
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The true terrors of the MUP:

Bambi and Thumper

Rocky and Bullwinkle

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Old 07-20-18, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
Not only are there laws to the road, there are enforcers and penalties for violating them. No such instance exist on MUPs. So no, Clifford that's not a adequate parallel. In any event, since nobody's reading maybe this video will help explain.
the local mups get police enforcing the 15mph speed limit and dogs of leash, etc
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Old 07-20-18, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by squirtdad View Post
mups mean multi-use, not cylists rule Yes, as a cyclist you have to watch out for others and yes it is frustrating. Deal with it or ride elsewhere. The MUPS in area are that, there are none labled for cycling only and on average there are way more other users than cylists.

The only fail is the self-centered focus of this thread
Agreed.
Around here there are more cyclists, but it depends where you are. The locations closer to parking lots have more pedestrians. On weekends, the locations close to the river raft rental places are full of kids carry rafts right down the middle of the path. Etc.
You can either get mad or not.
Everyone has the right to use the bike trail.
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Old 07-20-18, 03:02 PM
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🚴 Why MUPs Fail


Who says MUPs fail? Are they being closed and abandoned or are they growing in use, length, and location more and more every year? I use mine all the time and never had any massive pileups with pedestrians, takes a little self control. Worst is other bike riders in race mode. Last year got sideswiped by some kid passing too close, neither of us went down though. No one yelled either.
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Old 07-20-18, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
Not only are there laws to the road, there are enforcers and penalties for violating them. No such instance exist on MUPs. So no, Clifford that's not a adequate parallel. In any event, since nobody's reading maybe this video will help explain.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6p_dAXocoU
Pedestrian/Bicycle separated MUPS are rare around here.



I think that means cyclists beware of GIANTS.

Nonetheless, I find it most comfortable to ride to the right. I don't think I passed King Kong on that path.

Bike Path bridges are unique, and at least around here, there are often pedestrians loitering on the bridges. Yet, 100 yards and one is across the river, and off down the path again.

I tried a freeway hop a while ago... Nice wide shoulders, right? It didn't occur to me that they narrowed the shoulders for the bridge... next time back onto the path.

Many MUPS are owned and maintained by the parks departments, not the highway departments.

I'm trying to remember the history of the MUPS in Eugene/Springfield. I think they pretty much took a couple of existing parks and expanded the paths through them, and beyond.

It is hard to claim the parks should restrict users.
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Old 07-20-18, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
I have yet to find a MUP like that. Every single one I've tried has been dominated -- overwhelmingly -- by pedestrian. Because I have to watch out for everybody going in all directions, my average speed on the MUP is 1/2 of what it is on the road with constant traffic signals and stop signs. You didn't read any of my posts did you?
Hey, this is EXACTLY what motorists say about cyclists on public streets. "Those dang bikers cause me so much delay..."

Almost the same words. Certainly the same sentiment.
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