seypat

I think the commercial hits the nail on the head. Those Trek riders having to watch/listen to JV stuffing his face, running his mouth, giving them the needle and also riding off from them looking like he is goofing off. Now if that is the local hammerfest, how long before:

A) The JV character is asked to leave or other riders begin to not show up. The other riders were already thinking that way by the time the female rider showed up. We didn't see if she was on an e bike. Getting chicked and geezered on the same day might be a tough pill to swallow for some.
B) All of the other riders show up with an e bike of their own. Back to square 1 but with a higher overall pace. Then the cycle will repeat itself and so on and so on.

noodle soup

TimothyH

Assist is typically variable. The amount the rider need to contribute can be a little or a lot depending on riders needs and terrain. Grandma might need lots of assist or you might dial it up on the hills. On the flat rail trail you could dial down the assist to save battery.

The top speed, 20 MPH or 28 MPH or whatever it is, is when all assist stops. Here in Georgia the law is 20 MPH. At that point the motor is supposed to completely cut out and the rider contributes 100% of the watts required. Drop below 20 MPH and the motor assist kicks in.

I met a guy on the rail trail with pedal assist who explained that he had a heart attack. Cycling was part of his cardiac rehab and he dialed back the assist as he got stronger. Post 97 is another example - exercise and some help if needed.

This is all completely different from throttle operated. I got dusted by a throttle operated bike a few weeks ago. I was humiliated for about 0.07 seconds before I realized what was going on. The guy stopped pedaling and kept accelerating up a hill.


-Tim-

Kapusta

Pedaling is for chumps.

E-bikes will end up in C&V when people smarten up and get electric scooters and motorcycles.

ksryder

Pffft this is what I'm holding out for:

oldgeezerjeff

I have no problem with slow electric motorcycles (E-bikes) as long as the folks riding them do not pretend that they are riding a bicycle. They are not bicycles...they are slow electric motorcycles. Period. If you ride one, please do not pretend that you have any affinity with actual bicycle riders. They are a way for people to get their hands on and ride a motorcycle without having to acquire a motorcycle license or buy motorcycle insurance.

burnthesheep

FWIW, at a hammer local to us, a P/1/2 guy has a girlfriend who rides competitively. I've seen them ferry the girl back to the lead group after getting gapped on a hill. Or, that's the ONLY time during the ride they choose to lift pace and soft pedal.

Now that's a crappy feeling watching someone else get the domestique treatment when you're all alone.

kingston 

I've ridden exactly two pedal assist e-bikes. Neither one went 28mph, but on both of those bikes the answer to your question for each bike's maximum speed was zero human watts. All I had to do was turn the pedals and the motor did all the work at whatever speed setting I selected, so the e-bike watts were exactly inversely proportional to the rider watts. And both bikes were such pigs that no reasonable amount of human effort could make them go any faster. Seemed to me like a throttle designed by someone trying to get around a government regulation created by a bureaucrat who had never ridden an e-bike. I couldn't care less if people want to ride e-bikes on the road, since it doesn't affect me in any way, but they're just crappy motorcycles. "Pedal assist" is a disingenuous misnomer, and I could get a pretty sweet motorcycle for seventeen grand.

burnthesheep

$8500 according to google for a brand new Zero FX entry level all electric motorcycle.

E-bikes worth a darn retail for what? $2500+?

Domane+ is what? $7000?!!!!!!!

kingston 

I was thinking gas motors, but you're right, even battery powered motorcycles are a better deal than an e-bike.

venturi95

Why do people have to keep up with others faster than them? I have no illusions about getting older and slower. Just enjoy what fitnesses you still have. If you are a former racer (or fast type) you know that feeling of keeping your composure when there is none to be found - for me it is what makes a good ride a great ride. I can see if you’re handicapped the benefit of a motor. I had “motorcycle-itis” in my youth and have ridden many thousands of miles on dirt and pavement with an engine assist 🙂. I prefer bicycles. The sudden fascination with e-mopeds makes me nauseous.

TimothyH

What make and model were the pedal assist bikes you rode?

I ask because what you describe isn't consistent with what I have heard others say. At least two riders told me that the assist is definitely variable.

Do you think the ones you tried were maybe modified in some way?

I'm not trying to challenge but sincerely wondering.


-Tim-

kingston 

Both bone stock. One was some model of Raleigh with a mid-drive motor that I rented in Traverse City last summer and the other was a JUMP bike I rented in Atlanta a few weeks ago. The both worked the same. Yes the assist is variable. There are settings, the Raleigh had 5 speed settings and the JUMP bike had three. That speed setting determines the top-speed at which the motor cuts out. Below that speed, the motor compensates for whatever watts the rider makes to hit that speed. So for example, the top speed on setting 5 on the Raleigh was around 20mph. I could contribute 200 watts or zero watts and the bike still went 20 mph as long as the pedals were turning. And with that bike I couldn't pedal hard enough to make it go faster than 20 for more than a short distance. I'm sure not all e-bikes are the same, but that was the case on the two I have ridden. I have read about an incremental assist, that works like a multiplier to whatever watts the rider makes, so the bike watts are directly proportional to the rider watts, but I think those are either rare or maybe even don't exist. I don't know that much about it since I lost interest in e-bikes after I rented one last summer and realized that I have no use for one since I already have a bunch of bikes and few motorcycles that all go faster than 20 mph with unlimited range.

Sy Reene

i think he said the same thing you are thinking. Inversely proportional. You set an assist level (eg. highest).. you barely move the pedals, the assist goes to maximum to get you to the 20/28mph. You pedal hard, the assist varies downward so the bike doesn't exceed the same 20/28mph. It sounds like these bikes are the same as throttle bikes, except you have to make some sort of token motion with your feet, and the 'throttle' isn't continuously variable, but works with push-button settings (3 or 4?).

EDIT: Ooops just noticed Kingston already answered while I was composing.

Sy Reene

So it occurs to me, if this is how these bikes still work, and if you've been cycling for a while, perhaps in pacelines, the concept or habit of soft-pedaling (keeping feet moving but exerting no torque so as to bleed off speed) could be somewhat problematic.

EDIT: Then again, it's problematic thinking that this is how these bikes really work. This implies that you either go 0 or 20mph, and the only way to go an inbetween speed is to brake against the motor, or alternate coast-pedal-coast-pedal-coast-pedal etc eg. if you want to maintain eg. 17mph.

Kapusta

My thoughts exactly. And I say that as someone who is has an eBike in my (and my wife's) future. For us they are an easy way to get around without working up a sweat, or getting up the big steep hill to our house after dinner with friends and not tossing our cookies.

I see them as electric scooters that we can park in bike-racks downtown (and, like you said, no license or insurance). We are getting mid-drives to make the hills as easy as possible. There is nothing sport-like about them (unless you consider motor bikes "sport"), and and I don't consider it "cycling". I want one because it is NOT a bicycle. These will displace car use, not bike use.

kingston 

That's what the speed settings are for. Just select setting 4 if you want to go 17 mph. Like I said before. It works just like a poorly designed throttle.

gregf83 

What exactly is your problem with someone who rides an e-bike? I'm honestly curious. You sound a little like angry motorists who just don't like cyclists and irrationally get upset at anything they do.

I have a Copenhagen wheel which I use for commuting some days. I pedal the same as I do without the wheel, sweat the same, same HR, same power output. The only real difference is I get to work a little faster (shaves 7-10 min each way off my 1hr commute). I have a powermeter on the bike so I know exactly how much of my energy it takes to go to and from work.

I suspect many who have a problem with e-bikes just don't like anyone faster than them regardless of whether they're assisted or not.

Sy Reene

Indeed that would be the case, because with a throttle, you can throttle to a speed of 10mph for example, and contribute 7mph with your legs. With the understanding that these assist bikes cutout when you reach the limit you set, using the 10mph fixed setting, once you pass that you would have to contribute the whole 17mph with your legs. Or does this work differently for the lower settings, continuing to contribute the same power once you pass the setting's equivalent speed? The motor only cutting out on the top setting/20mph?

TimothyH

Apparently there are two types of pedal assist...

The torque sensor pedal assist systems measure the amount of power you are putting into the pedals and it will increase or decrease the electric assist based on your pedaling power. The torque sensor systems have a very intuitive ride feel because they emulate your pedal power very well. They are also generally found on the more expensive e-bikes or e-bike kits.

The cadence sensor pedal assist systems provide assistance when the cranks of the bike are turning. Compared to the torque sensor system, the cadence sensor will just provide the assist based purely on the level assist you have selected and it will not increase or decrease the assist based on your actual pedal power. You could be pedaling very lightly or very hard and it will provide the same level of assist.

https://electricbikereport.com/elect...ssist-pedelec/


-Tim-

seypat

Is there a setting so you can dial it up to 400 watts?

kingston 

I don't really know how they work so this is just my guess based on two experiences. On the mid-drive motor, I actually felt like there was additional resistance above the cutoff for the speed setting at the lower settings, so it took a really ridiculous amount of effort to get it to go faster than that. I tried it a little bit at the beginning until I figured out what pedal assist really means, then resorted to using the speed settings like a throttle which is what I would expect most people do in practice. The hub drive motor on the JUMP bike was pretty weak so I just left that on the highest setting the whole time.

Seattle Forrest

I would love to see human-generated power data for eBikes.

Elvo

Most of the contemporary ebikes are speed regulated through throttle, cadence, or torque sensors. Torque is the most "natural" and can often be tuned.

For example, if you put in 100 watts of your own power, the motor will add 400 watts. If you put in 50 watts, the motor adds 200 watts. Of course, in some areas, the motors are required to be speed limited so if you're putting in 200 watts at 28 mph, you will get zero assist.

Sy Reene

Thanks for the info folks. I think this all speaks to the murky definitions though that regulatory bodies and governments will have to wade thru. IOW, there are some types of pedal-assist e-bikes that qualitatively are not at all really different from throttle-controlled e-bikes.. which in turn aren't really much different from mopeds, and so on...