NateRod

Came across this Waterford-built 1990 Paramount OS with full Dura-Ace, perfect size, at an unbeatable price (and irresistible paint job) and just had to take it.



So, now I have this and the PDG. As much as I'd love to keep both, I have no space (and extra cash never hurts), so one of them is going to need a new home.

And by "one of them" I mean the PDG. Love it, but decided to sacrifice it in order to keep the "nicer" one of the pair. It's already up on local CL. Is it weird that I feel kind of bad about it?

frantik

sweet... except now i'm blind from the paint job (looks awesome btw)

WNG

Yeah, everytime I close my eyes, I still see the shape of a glowing road frame.

Nice Waterford find!

pastorbobnlnh 

The challenges of living in urbia. When are two Paramounts ever too many? I'll pray for you (to find the space to keep both)!

Picchio Special

Technically, they're both "PDG"'s - one is a "Series" Paramount.

I would keep whichever one rides best. If it's a tie, then yeah, I'd sell the Series bike.

wrk101

Just two Paramounts? Surely you need at least 3! I would call that an excellent start!


I have a similar Series V myself, along with a 1986 Waterford. Let us know how you do on that Series V.

rhm

The yellow one needs this.

If you sell the other one, I'm pretty sure you won't regret it for long.

Good luck!

RoboIsGod

WOW, both of these bikes ****ing rule!

RobbieTunes

Nice dilemma.

1-An OS-tubed PDG Paramount, built in Wateford, with 2x8 Dura Ace and nice Mavic Open 4 CD hoops, Mondo tires.
2-A Tange OS-tubed bike, built by PDG-Japan, under direct supervision of PDG, 1992 with 2x8 105 STI group, Campy hoops, Gatorskins.

I know of no reason why one frame is better than the other. Maybe someone can fill me in on that, as far as tubing or geometry. I like the yellow. The location of manufactur is not an issue. I've never seen any evidence Japanese frame builders were any less skilled then US frame builders.

So, if the frames are significantly different, and I doubt it, other than road cred, it comes down to components and what you like, how you ride.

The Dura Ace is proprietary, but since it's already 8-sp, you can get some 8-sp STI's and boom!, you're modern, if that's what you want.

If you prefer STI shifting to downtube shifing, with a "minumum acceptable level" of components, you can stick with the Series 5. I don't see how you can lose, no matter what you do. Both are ace.

It appears if you like the DA that much, don't mind DT shifting (or until you find some STI shifters), I'd keep the Wateford. If you can significantly impact your wallet in a positive way with selling the Waterford, and the Series 5 is fine, do that.

My take is to keep each bike intact.
I like yellow, and 8-sp STI's would really be cool on the Waterford OS, so I guess I'm giving away my choice.
Make sure you get some spare hoods whenever they show up for sale.

One of the nicest, if not the nicest, OS Paramounts I've ever seen is norskagent's '89, which is Waterford, OS, with 2x8 DA STI. I can't see how you wouldn't enjoy a bike built up like that. https://velospace.org/node/34086

Quite a dilemma, but judging by the bikes and the great job you did on the Series 5, you'll be great either way.

Picchio Special

The Waterford frames are better built. Not way better, but there is a discernable difference, IMO. Nothing to do with Japanese framebuilders being less skilled, but simply that the Asian frames were intentionally more of a production-environment, subcontraced, price-point product, while Waterford was aiming to compete with the top level of racing frame makers. It would have been astonishing if Waterford hadn't been working to a higher standard, even as the Series frames represent great value.
I'm not sure what it means to say that the Asian frames were built "under direct supervision" of PDG? I'd be interested to know what that "direct supervision" consisted of. In the past, for example, the info on the Waterford site has implied that the advent of the Asian Paramounts was a bit of a surprise to the folks at Waterford, and the source of a bit of upset that the brand they were trying to rebuild at the highest level was being, in essence, watered down. My sense is that there's probably a bunch of info about the creation of the Series line that remains elusive, given that a lot of the project may have happened away from Waterford and the main players of the time have since scattered to the four winds. It would be very interesting if someone could fill in more of this story.

RobbieTunes

It was posted here, somewhere, with the name of the guy who went to Japan to supervise the Series 5 and 7. It may have been one of Scooper's posts, or a quote of another post/article. Per that, PDG had a person right there.

I can certainly see why Waterford's builders were disconcerted that their "brand" was going to higher-volume production. It could be concern about the quailty or concern about loss of brand identity. Waterford has certainly retained that, over the years.

I distinctly remember the supervision issue because it made me feel better.
"PDG" Paramounts already have somewhat of an inferiority complex.
Their advantage now, to me, is their availability at lower prices, and then upgradability.

I've seen norskagent's '89 OS (TruTemper tubing) close up, and have a National/Panasonic built Series 7 with Tange OS tubing. Bike for bike, there is probably a little more "clean-up" on the lug work on the '89 from Waterford. You hit it right on the head, the attention to detail may be better. The paint was more metallic, and thinner, so the lugs would easily have shown any defects. Finer finish work, IMO, on the Waterford. Other than that, there's not a lot of difference. Big difference in market value because Waterford didn't skimp on components, which belies a prioritizing of quality all around.

The Series 7 is not as "clean" on the lugs, i.e. they are not as sharply defined, perhaps due to one less round of buffing. I do believe, if the Series 7 had come with Dura Ace components, we'd be comparing pretty much apples to apples.

Thicker paint can also make that difference. The Taiwan-made Series 2, with it's thick "soft" red paint, is a good example of how lugs can be "undefined" by thick paint.

Picchio Special

I think you meant to type "Series" Paramounts - the Waterford bikes are also "PDG" Paramounts.

longbeachgary

Keep both. You'll regret selling either of them.

THEJAPINO

Wow, I learned alot about Paramounts today. Does anybody have a link or something where I can read about 80's-90's Paramounts? It's interesting to hear that they were made in a few different places. Id like to know about all the different series and whatnot. Thanks!

Dog Trainer

Look here. https://waterfordbikes.com/now/home.p...stype=wculture

RobbieTunes

Yep. My bad.

Today was the inaugural ride of my 650c Series 7. My shakedown rides are 15.4 miles, with hills, as hard as I can go. 3 miles from the end is a 35-40mph downhill with about a 100-degree right turn onto a flat road, followed by a 1-mile gradual climb. It gives me a great mix to put a bike through its paces, and many a flaw has shown up on that ride.

The 650c Series 7 comes with 56/42 rings, and I ran a 12-23 rear. All I can say, is if the '90 Waterford PDG OS rides any better, I want one. It is definitely not a climber on the big ring, but boy, on the flats and where I had a tailwind,...

holy carrotsticks, Batman.

Picchio Special

The True Temper Waterford OS frames are super stiff - I wonder if the OS Series bikes have the same characteristics. The answer can be very subjective, of course, but the OS Waterford bikes tested on the very high end for stiffness when they were built. I personally prefer a bit more forgiving, all-day ride quality. I have a Series 5 headed my way, so I'm anxious to try her out.

RobbieTunes

Did you get Nate's, by any chance?
I found a 5 in south Jersey, waiting on him to respond back.

Picchio Special

Nope - different bike.

NateRod

Thanks everyone! And thanks for the correction, Picchio. You're right. "Series" is a more appropriate way to make the distinction.

The Waterford does feel lighter, snappier, more nimble. I'm sure the DA group doesn't hurt. The class distinction can definitely be felt.

The series 5 is great, and i'd really love to keep both, but being hard pressed to choose, I'd have to say I'm going with the Waterford.

Rabid Koala

Nice find! I have the two tone version, that bright green is really BRIGHT!

Mine has the tricolor 600 group, I converted to 8 speed with brifters after this photo was taken.

wrk101

In my case, my 1986 Waterford is SLX frame tubing, so I would consider that superior to my 1992 Series V (Tange OS). But, the 1992 fits, and the 1986 is too small. The Series V came under-equipped IMHO, with Shimano 105. I will be putting 600 tricolor (came with the Prologue) with the 8 speed 600 STI I got in trade with Robbie. Not so sure about wheels.

As far as Japanese craftsmanship, I continue to be way impressed with my 1987 Prologue (Panasonic built as well, Tange Prestige frame). It was really the precursor to the Japanese Paramounts, kind of a trial balloon.

As far as what to keep, from an investment standpoint, I think the Waterford is defiinitely the way to go.

NateRod

Holy **** that paintjob! Love it.

NateRod

THE HORROR!

Just a couple of days into owning it, this happens.

Locked it out for a very short time while meeting with a friend. Came back to find someone had DENTED THE MF'in DOWN TUBE! There were no other bikes locked next to it, so I'm assuming either a) someone was walking / riding by and U-locked, kicked it, etc. out of spite, or b)... I don't even ****ing know. Absolutely baffled.

Don't even know if it's safe to ride it anymore (is it? Anyone?).

Either way, it's an eyesore. To say that I am FUMING and could commit murder right now would be an understatement.

roadbike68

Its safe. you need to sell one to get a bike you can lock up and not care if it takes a ding.