Tulok

i used to be a beach cruiser hater too, man. But I've been surprised that I can still out climb and out ride everyone that I normally can on it, and my regular more suited bikes. Strange and hard to wrap your head around but it's not that much slower.

On the flats, it's definitely way slower, but not climbing or descending really. The $99 fixie will be almost identical to any other road bike sadly. The bike makes a few % difference, not a lot really.

Sy Reene

Well.. I'm sure it's interesting and thanks for the link, but appears I need to register on their site to see what you're talking about. If anyone from WW reads this, i might suggest that WW should consider putting something on their homepage or listings page that indicates that yes, there is more current weight data, where it is, and fact you have to register. This might make that site more attractive to outsiders passing thru to register, as it is, it looks like another forums website with nothing else to offer.

Call me stoopid, but I still can't find a way to navigate to topic no.100 and the Excel data from the forums page (ie. what you linked).. what is the link tree from say the homepage to get there?

Psimet2001 

Off Topic but...

This is Joe Berenyi. Joe is a local guy that started cycling in 1993 then had a horrible industrial incident as an iron worker. He got back into cycling/racing around 2008 timeframe. We recruited him onto my team for our first real season in 2009. He outgrew us around the time he decided he was going to go to London. He has had multiple world and national titles as well as 3 olympic medals. He has this beard. He had a goatee when I got to know him. He came in second in some worlds race and his coach on the USA Cycling squad yelled at him that he would have won if he hadn't had the beard....

....he said..."BS". So he has been growing out the beard ever since and has since won that world title and many others as well along the way. Aero isn't everything.

Maelochs

Maybe so, but the bike would feel better when it was removed ... True Story (based on the same criteria you used.)

Look, my current ride is about 24 lbs according to the manufacturer. I'd guess about 28 as I actually ride it. My other is even heavier (full touring setup.) I am planning to build an asploding bike which i figure will weigh about 18 ready to ride. Maybe I wouldn't notice a pound of lead (if it was invisible lead .... maybe you should have said "slipped won the seat tube") but I am pretty sure i will notice a difference between my current rides and the new one.

If we want, we can rehash the old "how much weight vs. how much performance" or "Is it a real-world difference if you can measure it but can't feel it" and all that. Fact is, at some point there will be a noticeable difference ... and that would be what we are discussing.

I heartily encourage you to attach an increasing amounts of lead weight to your bike, say a pound every month, for a year, so you can report back about exactly how much you noticed at each change.

After all, by your claims, you would adapt to each change each month and would never notice even when your bike weighed twelve pounds more.

Maelochs

There are so many jokes i want to try to make here, but they would all possibly be seen as being in bad taste, and I wouldn't want to do anything to disrespect a guy who came back from what he went through and accomplished so much.

Tell him to dye it red before the next event ... that might be the winning difference.

wphamilton

That's not my experience. The cruiser is slower on the flats, on uphills, and downhills. Slower stopping and starting, slower around corners, and makes my butt sore in about an hour. I doubt that I could fiddle with it enough to get my position the same, nor take 5-10 pounds off of it, so it will always be slower no matter what. It will always handle differently. For more than about 10 minutes, can't put out as much power, and if you could it wouldn't go as fast, and if you did go as fast it's not as nimble to handle.

A fixie or single speed, even if I made the positions equal and put the same tires on, and somehow made them the same weight, will still always be slower than the geared road bike, because gears are advantageous. I'm just not getting how you come to this equivalency. Fixie 10 pounds heavier and stuck in 76 gear inches, nuts if that's identical huffing up a 15% grade, or down the other side for that matter.

Purely weight, yep I'd probably notice it if someone strapped an extra pound on, likely before getting out of the parking lot. Into the ride after 40 or 50 miles it wouldn't be making much difference to me. You grow used to the feel, you'll notice if it's different, even when objectively it's not much harder or easier to do pretty much the same things.

rmfnla

I know you meant "assplode"; other than that I couldn't agree more...

rmfnla

The Samson Syndrome is a well-documented anomaly and not relevant to the conversation here...

Psimet2001 

Go ahead an make them. He's probably already made them about himself.

First season and first race he and I are racing together in one of the huge downtown style crits. It's a mixed 4/5 field and is maxed out at 100. It's s super safe 4 open corner crit which means there's tons of carnage because you can't ever get rid of the squirrels. We are both about 3/4 back with 2 to go just kind of chatting and starting to get ready to move up for the bell lap when 2 guys cross wheels at the front and take down the back 50% of the field. We got the easy part of the wreck and just barely touched the ground but we were off when the field start to wind it up. We both wanted to finish so we ride out the last lap on our own and make our way back to the team tent. Everyone starts asking me if I'm OK. " Saddle is bent and some road rash but nothing remotely major". I turn and see Joe riding up, "how about you Joe - you OK?"

He starts looking around himself, "yeah I think I'm fine. I didn't really---WAIT!! WTF HAPPENED TO MY ARM??!!"

We became really good friends after that. He's nowhere near mythical or amazing for what he has accomplished...he's just a great dude who just won't give up. He has done some stuff that has amazed me though. I have video somewhere of him riding rollers in my basement in his street clothes on my bike. He just saw them and jumped on. When I was sponsoring him with wheels he actually came over and laced and tensioned his own wheelset - single-handedly. Then the pics I have of when we talked him into trying cross....

Tulok

I'm not using any math to quantify anything here, I'm just saying that in my experience, it makes virtually no difference.

and my cruiser is an Electra cruiser 1, it is all steel except for the stem, bars and seat post.

Edit:
check out this link about bike weight:

https://www.bmj.com/content/341/bmj.c6801

i will say again, that on the flats a cruiser is awful.

wphamilton

I've always liked his experiment, but you have to understand that he's only talking about the weight going up a hill, and the extra rolling resistance from more weight (which is trivial). And his discussion about getting the energy back downhill is silly.

There is a lot more to it than the weight, and I suppose that's the tie-in with this thread. Position, tires, and even (perhaps) wheels make more difference unless we're going slow.

I don't religiously record speeds but I've ridden over the same commute route roughly 2400 times. Mostly on my road bike, not light by any stretch of the imagination at 21 pounds and change. I don't really care much about weight, I'm with you on that. I'm a total noob with my fixie but I can tell you this: between the "sensible" tires, upright relaxed position, 9 pounds extra weight, and drag from the accessories, and no up-shift, my trip speed is 20% lower.

rpenmanparker 

Untrue! I reweigh my bike before every ride to make sure it hasn't been tampered with. Well not really, but you seriously underestimate the ability of WWs to know their equipment.

Shuffleman

I am not a weight weenie but I do notice when I hold somebody elses bike from time to time. If a bike is way heavier than mine, I may notice. Ultimately, I do not care though. I could not tell you how much my bike weighs. I have to say that for the most part I think that people should get what they want to get. I do not recommend this if you are going into debt over it though. If you have the money than go for it. I do find it odd when an enthusiastic eater (my wife says that I need to be nicer) is in the shop paying a ton for lighter wheels. I would never say anything but I have to admit that my first thought is to maximize your body before you start spending money to eek more out of your equipment. Of course I have been guilty of buying new bike when I really do not need one. I justify it by saying that I am keeping the wheels of the economy churning though, as I know that it will not make me faster.

rmfnla

The real value of a lighter bike is to impress others...

fietsbob

More Table push Backs ..

Maelochs

I find this "You don't deserve an XXX that nice" thought to be mildly offensive (to others; I am not offended.)

If a fat guy (say, me) wants a better bike, he wants that, and when a person can get what s/he wants, s/he is generally happier. Are some people opposed to others being happy?

(Say, should only good-looking guys have pretty wives or girlfriends? How man of us would be single then?)

Anyway, as has been noted there is the psychological as well as the physical aspect to consider. And purely on the physical side, a lighter bike makes a difference on Every change in pitch or velocity---every time the rider slows it takes less effort to speed up. And every time the rider slows, it feels that much better when the rider wants to speed up again. It has nothing to do with numbers---most riders ride for the time on the bike, not the time on the computer after the ride is over. And throughout most rides, the lighter bike will feel just a little better. Unless a rider maintains a perfectly steady pace on perfectly steady road, the lighter bike will show its worth many, many times in most rides.

Add to that the psychological benefit of knowing the bike is capable of way more than I can get from it, and add to that the pleasure of knowing I have spent a little to upgrade what i won, and thus own something just a little better than I did before ....

I think I have said this before (despite me saying so much, I don't have much to say, so repetition is inevitable,) a better bike cannot make me a better rider but it can give me a better ride.

TriDanny47

I merely find it oddly amusing that perfect strangers on the internet think they "deserve" the right to judge what other people "deserve", and to take it a bit wider, that they feel they "deserve" to set the criteria behind "deserve".

I have expensive bikes. I'm not very fast. I will never be a "contender" in any competitive event. I just enjoy what I do (triathlons to date, and a few non-competitive club rides) for it's own sake. I'm competing against ... me! No one else. If that puts a bee in someone's shorts, well, that's their problem.

I say I "deseve" the bikes I have because ... wait for it ... it's my money, I earn it! It's called ... work! That thing you do for 40, 50, 60 hours a week of your life for 35, 40, 45 years. It also falls under the category of "return on investment." I made a big investment in my education, I skulked around university campus for 9 years of my life in total, at all hours of the day and night, agonized over projects and papers, sweated exams, went nights without sleep reading and studying. You get the picture, I'm sure most of you have been there, too.

Enjoying life in the present is my reward for all of that. I do, and buy, the things which add to my "ejoyment quotient" as I see appropriate.

Buying a bike is NOT like adopting a shelter or rescue pet. Pet adoption often involves questions about the suitable nature of the proposed home environment, the would-be adopter's financial ability to care for the pet, and even at times screening to make sure the person doesn't have a history of abuse or neglect of animals. Society has deemed that generally an appropriate value judgement.

When I approached the manager and owner of my LBS a couple of years ago about buying my first truly expensive bike, I don't recall ever having to submit to a background check, any questions about my speed or riding ability, etc. It's NOT a value judgement based transaction. It's about $$$, plain and simple. I did get appropriate questions about the type of riding, the type of bike, and so forth, but those were to steer me towards what was right for my needs, not to steer me away from the purchases as somehow "unworthy". Maybe they were laughing at me behind my back ... if so, who gives a rat's *** ... what is anyone gonna do, take away my birthday or my bike or something? Doubt it. Seemed pretty happy to ring up that sale. And they seem pretty happy to see me when I go into the shop (where I've bought 5 bikes to date).


It's all about the aspiration. I bet almost NO ONE who posts here is a professional cyclist. Using "deserve" as it's been used in this and similar threads, probably no one here "deserves" much of a bike. So the one in a thousand here who is the professional should be the only one riding a high end CF bike with a great groupset? And the rest of us??? There's always the GMC Denali. But if I were limited to riding a GMC Denali because that is "all I deserve" I doubt it would make me aspire to try to better myself, achieve better times, improve my health, etc. I know intellectually I will never be a TDF rider, not even close. But I can have a little piece of that dream for myself when I jump on my bike and pedal off. That is worth it to me.

Absolutely. There is a great butcher shop in my town, superb quality, it's always busy. I buy a lot of steaks there, filets, rib eyes, etc. I could just stop by the local Kroger or even Wal-mart and buy some round steak or even some ground beef. Just as nourishing. But not nearly as satisfying. So, it costs a little more at the butcher shop ... my $, I earn it.

Shuffleman

I must say that I do agree with everything that you have said. My post was mostly tongue in cheek. I am hardly the best rider in the world and do not pretend to be even close. People are entitled to whatever they want. There is human nature though in each one of us. I would be lying if I said that I found it odd that a person is 100lbs over weight but is obsessing over the weight of his bike. It is just the irony of it. Does this mean that I am at 0% body weight? No. I just find it odd that is all. I really do not care about the cost as it is not my money and I would like for everybody to be happy. My thinking it is not about the money, it is more about why obsess over the weight in the first place. If I knew there person and he asked me for my opinion, I would state--If your goal is to get faster, it will help very little. If you are looking for a higher quality ride or just like the product than go for it.
Wow. This thread has struck a cord with you. I agree with much of what you have said. Buy what you like and can afford. Who cares what somebody else thinks. Again, much of my post was tongue in cheek. Perhaps it did not come accross. If you are being serious about not being judgemental than why just apply it to bicycles. Your analogy of the dog is no different. I spent 4 years in undergrad, 2 years in grad school and many years working my tail off. I ride an expensive bike. I also have a standard poodle that I bought from a breeder. My son wanted that breed. I can afford it so why would society find only the shelter dogs more appropriate? I spend a ton of time researching the right breed before I buy a dog. I want it to be trainable, smart and have other traits that I want. I can't usually get that from a shelter. It is no different than the bike. Do some people judge this because I paid more for the dog, have to buy it special food instead of Walmart food and etc? Sure they do. Just like with the bike, it is my choice.
Anyway, no need to get so serious. It is just a discussion.

Maelochs

My apologies for being such a richard about it. I am in a less then great state of mind lately .... haven't gotten out for a good ride in a week and a half and it shows in my attitude. I went overboard .... most of what I said was about my own issues, not your post.

Really, your bike is as smart as a poodle? What tricks can it do?

I am not the one who brought up the shelter dog, but that i san easy one to understand ... there are so many unwanted dogs being killed each day, it is easy to see why someone might say, "Save a life, don't buy a trophy dog." However, having a pet is a serious emotional commitment and if you have a strong emotional pull towards a certain type of dog ... it would be like telling parents, "Don't have your own kids, adopt!" Not an idea which would go over well, I don't think. But that is getting pretty serious, and as you say Again, I apologize for venting on you.

LOL ... I am a fat dude and I just bought some light wheels ... How did you know? Are you stalking me?

TriDanny47

Sincere, yes. Verbose, definitely. Serious, no - theses discussions are mere the intellectual equivalent of some little amuse bouche in my mind. I'm always smiling when I write these things.

And yes, I've gotten the "why would you buy from a breeder when there are dogs in shelters?" judgement many times. Gee ... maybe because I wanted something specific in a dog!

grolby

It's interesting how controversial this idea is in internet bike circles, if it even occurs to people at all. A lot of the people making a big deal about how small a "real" difference weight actually makes seem at least as obsessive about speed as those who are concerned about saving weight. Maybe more so, since they seem to be measuring value entirely by performance.

From my perspective, 100+ grams from a single component, particularly a small one like a saddle, is significant. That large a weight gain from a single component would just bug the hell out of me.

Doge

Grams really mess with my son's head and I'm responsible in part, but he is way worse. Last year he paid dearly. His bike was on edge at Nationals, had a wheel change for and DQ'd from a top 10 finish. Took of weights from his BB for a Belgium race (allowed) and forgot to take them to a UCI race and got all his alloy stuff removed, replaced with steel and some broken.
BUT - he goes faster with light stuff, almost every time. I know it is more brain than physics, but then the brain tends to be the most significant part of riding.

wphamilton

Aw that hurts. I enjoy riding my Denali and I keep trying hard, even if I don't deserve better ...

AlmostTrick

Suggesting that reducing body weight (if one is overweight) can be as or even more effective as reducing bike weight is not the same as saying that someone doesn't deserve a fancy high dollar bike. Clearly the comment can be made without judging... I wonder why some are so easily offended by it.

The psychological benefit of knowing a fancy bike is capable of much more than a particular rider can get from it means very little, since it can be said of any bike.

geomild

skip man