80's Campy Victory derailleur peformance?
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#27
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would you like a worn out croce derailleur? I haven't any idea what a good trade for that would be...
<edit!>I'd be looking for six speed XT stuff...got any?</edit>
<edit!>I'd be looking for six speed XT stuff...got any?</edit>
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I mentioned that I wanted to try to get my Simplex SX610 to index. Well I just read that someone got them to index using Shimano 6 or 7 speed shifters and freewheels. It should work just as well with cassettes. I haven't tried it yet, but I'm going to.
Last edited by Grand Bois; 08-19-07 at 09:58 PM.
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I guess that is too early... can you link to pics of what you are looking for?
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#32
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Sorry to revive such an old thread but I was wondering how many speeds can an 85' Victory RD handle? Could it handle 8 speeds? Am I pushing it? I'm trying to finish a project and this is the last step.
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Last edited by cudak888; 03-23-11 at 05:01 PM.
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I think it would, my Triomphe handles 7 quite easily. trial and error may be your friend here.
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#36
Newbie
I've been running an '85 Victory RD for six months now with nary a problem on a six-speed 13-21.
Until today
For some inexplicable reason, when shifting to the 21 sprocket, the chain over-shot into my beautiful stainless, double-butted aero spokes, ripping out five in the process Needless to say, this left a seriously disfigured and inoperative wheel, leaving me no option but to call a taxi-sag-wagon for the four mile trip home.
I'll rebuild it at the weekend. Never, in all my years .....
Until today
For some inexplicable reason, when shifting to the 21 sprocket, the chain over-shot into my beautiful stainless, double-butted aero spokes, ripping out five in the process Needless to say, this left a seriously disfigured and inoperative wheel, leaving me no option but to call a taxi-sag-wagon for the four mile trip home.
I'll rebuild it at the weekend. Never, in all my years .....
#37
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any thoughts?
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Are you referring to the First, short cage, or the Leisure, long cage, version?
I am not sure I may have a 28 on one of my bikes I'll try and remember to check when I get home.
I am not sure I may have a 28 on one of my bikes I'll try and remember to check when I get home.
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Grand Bois-
Simplex SX 610s will index. I did mine with a Sachs ARIS 6 speed set of shifters, an ARIS Maillard 6spd freewheel and a Sedisport chain. Use SIS type cable sheathing and it will index impeccably. And yes, the adjuster really is necessary to fine tune the shifting. Ultimately, I decided I liked my Simplex Retrofrictions better but it is a viable and very effective option. Still have the ARIS shift levers, oddly.
Simplex SX 610s will index. I did mine with a Sachs ARIS 6 speed set of shifters, an ARIS Maillard 6spd freewheel and a Sedisport chain. Use SIS type cable sheathing and it will index impeccably. And yes, the adjuster really is necessary to fine tune the shifting. Ultimately, I decided I liked my Simplex Retrofrictions better but it is a viable and very effective option. Still have the ARIS shift levers, oddly.
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Where does the "980" fit in the Campy lineup?
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The 980 was below the Triomphe
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As for the rear, Campagnolo Victory performs excellent over narrow-range freewheels, due mainly in part to the adjustable (but once adjusted, fixed-position) B-angle of the derailer. You can set the front pulley wheel very close to the cogs (and quite a ways in front) on a narrow range freewheel, and recieve superb shifting. For that matter, it also provides excellent chain wrap). See below photo ('87 Victory S3 shown):
On wide-range clusters, however, a derailer with spring-loaded top pivots outshine the Victory derailer, as you are limited as to your B-angle adjustment by that large cog. Chances are you won't be using a Victory derailer in this case (unless it is the Victory LX touring RD), so it doesn't particularly matter. See the not-too-extreme example below ('85 Victory RD):
As for the LX touring variant...not so hot. As mentioned above, the B-angle has to be adjusted to the point where the foward pulley wheel no longer sits foward of the freewheel or cassette's centerline when
Incedentally, although it may look virtually identical, the Triomphe derailer is considerably worse then the Victory. Like the NR, it has a fixed top pivot stop, but in an effort to give it better chain wrap-up capacity, the fixed stop was designed to leave the derailer paralellogram nearly vertical. The result? A foward pulley wheel that constantly remains behind the centerline of the freewheel, providing substandard performance. Using Triomphe RDs in conjunction with early Shimano 600 Uniglide freewheels seem to help though - I also suggest this freewheel in conjunction with the Victory for superb shifting.
On wide-range clusters, however, a derailer with spring-loaded top pivots outshine the Victory derailer, as you are limited as to your B-angle adjustment by that large cog. Chances are you won't be using a Victory derailer in this case (unless it is the Victory LX touring RD), so it doesn't particularly matter. See the not-too-extreme example below ('85 Victory RD):
As for the LX touring variant...not so hot. As mentioned above, the B-angle has to be adjusted to the point where the foward pulley wheel no longer sits foward of the freewheel or cassette's centerline when
Incedentally, although it may look virtually identical, the Triomphe derailer is considerably worse then the Victory. Like the NR, it has a fixed top pivot stop, but in an effort to give it better chain wrap-up capacity, the fixed stop was designed to leave the derailer paralellogram nearly vertical. The result? A foward pulley wheel that constantly remains behind the centerline of the freewheel, providing substandard performance. Using Triomphe RDs in conjunction with early Shimano 600 Uniglide freewheels seem to help though - I also suggest this freewheel in conjunction with the Victory for superb shifting.
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All the CampI derailleurs were pretty much the same from the Record to the C-Rec. Some of the later ones had the B screw or that little insert. The Chorus was the real first departure from this decades old design
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#45
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Below are the 980, Triomphe and Victory, in that order. I now see the difference between the adjustable Victory and the others.
So, does each unique angle have an optimum cog size it was designed for?
So, does each unique angle have an optimum cog size it was designed for?
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^ Victory is missing the hanger bolt and stop piece ... but does have a ferrule in the housing stop.
Last edited by SurferRosa; 09-26-20 at 11:32 PM.
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#50
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I found out years ago that the Triomphe stop (and probably the 980/990) is so poorly designed that some dropouts - which most take for granted are patterned after Campagnolo's 7-o'clock stop design - will not work as intended with them. Sometimes a Triomphe will hang perfectly vertical off a dropout, and sometimes they'll sit looking like a broken Simplex Prestige, angled backwards. In such cases, you'll usually find that the stop is jamming against the curve of the thick hanger and not actually resting on the stop intended to keep its position.
Sure, every other SunTour derailer will fit on that same dropout, as will good old Nuovo Record, but not Triomphe (or 980/990). I guess Campagnolo figured they could wrap just one more cog's worth at the expense of performance to sell these things off to manufacturers looking to pair their Cromor and 501 frames with an entry-level Campagnolo group - a group one that would allow for the widely-spaced freewheels (wide at the time) that most semi-pro stuff was fitted with.
I once filed a generic, Raleigh-branded forged dropout on a 1986 Raleigh Grand Prix to get it to fit nicely. I didn't file it much and don't entirely regret it. Nevertheless, in retrospect, I should have filed the stop on the Triomphe derailer instead; it was the misfit, not the frame.
Back when this thread was not 13 years old, I often recommended the Victory derailer over Triomphe here on BikeForums. I've come to rethink my position. That multi-position adjustable stop that @branko_76 shows in the photo above is all too often missing. It also has a penchant for cracking just like the pivot stop of Campagnolo's other piece of overhyped and under-engineered piece of bike jewelry, C-Record.
I'm a bit wiser now. Given the choice between Victory or Triomphe for use, I'd recommend a Triomphe under the following conditions: File it until it fits your dropout, then file it until it suits your chain wrap. Don't file it to the point that the stop breaks - but even then, you can probably drill and tap the body for a small Allen head screw that'll be just as serviceable if not more so. You're turning it, functionally, into Nuovo Record.
And better yet, Triomphes are cheap - or at least they should be. Last I looked they were usually a bit cheaper to Victory. But it's a crap shoot, because 50% of the sellers mix the two up. The remainder throw ludicrously high prices on them without even knowing WTF they are, but hey, "...it's Campagnolo! Let me **** your wallet, you moron!"
This still comes with the caveat that you want Triomphe or Victory because you really like the way it looks. Provided you are content with a gorgeous hunk of aluminum that doesn't shift that well on anything but a modern ramped freewheel or an old corncob, that's fine. But if you've got some real hills to climb, dig up a decent Shimano or Suntour derailer from the same era - otherwise you're riding the snob boat or have drug-enhanced legs like Floyd Landis. A caveat, of course, that the Suntour V-series and its ridiculously heavy spring rate need not apply for this job.
Don't get me wrong - I'm a sucker for aesthetics and live in a place where a 3-degree grade is a "hill." I've enjoyed owning both Triomphe and Victory groups and don't regret it, but I've done so accepting the flaws of their derailers. Most Nuovo Record owners have understood this since the 1970's; some have been less humble about it than others. Triomphe and Victory are just beautiful enough that they've endured a similar (if smaller) interest all these years, and both groups are just accessible enough to for C&V'ers who never thought they'd have access to Campy to have access to Campy. If you fall into the latter camp, follow the advice above and accept that the performance will - in many cases - be a tradeoff for appearance. Enjoy them for their beauty, and stay humble about their capabilities.
-Kurt
Last edited by cudak888; 09-27-20 at 09:17 AM.
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