riva

I gotcha on the dishonesty part.. but still its a freaking TT frame from 30 years ago! NEW OLD STOCK! Look at your username! Yeah the guy isn't George Washington but still.. come on.

Ok I'll shut it and go back to looking for $40 le manzes.

VintageTTfan

I will stand on my statement without hesitation that there was NO INTENT to pay tribute to that brand of that era. Keep in mind, I am saying this as a Centurion lover.....Centurion is not viewed as being of the high level or having the big mystique that a Colnago, Masi, De Rosa etc have. Someone might make a fake of those bikes to pay tribute....no one would for a Centurion. I have seen a fake Moser time trial for instance that was made by this guy who admitted it was a fake. Moser has that kind of cache and mystique. Centurion is not a bike snob name. I do not say this to insult Centurions which I have many and love. It is just a fact (except the Centurion Equip made by Cinelli). I do not say all this to offend you...I am just saying what I know from years of research on this frame.

And by the way ...I can tell it is real. As to your point about the almost impossibility of finding something NOS that is 30 years old that you happen to want.....I can think of hundreds of examples of collectors finding just that. It has happened to me many times and it is a known fact in collectors circles that while it is very rare...it does happen. I don't get your argument on that point. I think this frame was abandoned or never sold and thus these were sitting in a factory waiting to be found and sold. Okay that is the end of my friendly tirade (which I do stand by).

VintageTTfan

Okay, I will concede that you have a point..........it is very cool that he managed to get these and sell them to collectors. And I do appreciate that. The seller deserves credit for that so I agree with you. And by the way ..no need to shut up and go away.....all of this banter is meant in a friendly way...something that can be hard to detect in forum land....so we hope you have more to say. All Best.

VintageTTfan

I have two. One of them is almost done being built. That one is a size 56. It is NOS. The other one I have is a size 52 believe it or not and it is in good shape but not NOS. That one has not been built up at all. They BOTH have the ORIGINAL forks which is as hard to find as an honest politician in my opinion (don't worry I will not go political...I hate that on bike forums). I will take pictures and post when I am done but it will be a long time as I am very busy right now. I do not mind having two as this bicycle has been an obsession with me. Thanks for asking and your interest.

Do you mean that you will buy the frame and build it up? Why would you paint it and what color would you use?

riva

I'm in the same boat as you.. I want one. But trying to justify the cost versus unknown rarity. Don't worry about offending me.. I'm all for offending people!

Here is some content to get somewhat back on the "for the love of 80's paint" topic..

VintageTTfan

What a strange Centurion! But I do really like it. Wish I had one but I do not. What do you people think of it? Any interesting historical tidbits? Sorry if I missed anything on this one.

Interesting how it has a straight top tube and a smaller front wheel . What size is that wheel?

VintageTTfan

This German one is the closest thing I have seen to it. I like this one too. I think there is one of these frames on E you know what. I am not the one selling it by the way.

This pic is nice because it has the original specs.

RobbieTunes

Georgena Terry design. Still good, still smart, but there are carbon 650c Canyons that are more awesome for people of that height. OK, 25x the money, but that's the allure of Centurions. 90% as good for 9% the cost.

markwesti

You have two !? In progress pictures are well revived , at least by me . As far as paint , I'm all over the place and easily intimidated , ask RT . My 86' , when I first got it I wanted to paint it that Pinarello red . The red with a hint of , ohboy I don't know how to describe it maybe a little dayglo . Well anyhow RT came over and put me in the Marine death choke hold and talked me out of it , but I didn't cry or anything .
As far as the megenta and white , it does not really ring my bell . I'm thinking Pinarello red .

RobbieTunes

Don't make me come back there.

VintageTTfan

Yeah but remember I searched and waited like 6 years to finally get this bicycle. It was a dream that I thought would never happen. Pictures will eventually come but it takes time and I prefer to wait till done. I think RT was right to put you in the Marine choke hold ....sorry...but I hate repaints on vintage bicycles. However, if the paint job is interesting that you do...like unusual then it interests me on that level I suppose. Your lucky you weren't given the Vader Death Grip! I love the magenta and white on this but I have to admit that DumpTruck Juinor's photos made me believe it was darker purple when I first saw it. Here is the picture I speak of.....of Juinor's bike:

This picture still has the power to make me salivate! This is my favorite version of this bike and it is what started my obsession I am ashamed to admit. Doesn't it look more purple here than pinkish magenta? It is deceiving.
Pinarello has lots of nice vintage TT bikes by the way...if you don't know that already.

texaspandj

@markwesti I can teach you how to get out of that choke hold. Number 1. Don't get caught in it.

@VintageTTfantt I'm not sure the UCI or any cycling govern body ever outlawed the TT funny bikes. I always assumed they were put out of business by aero bars.
In an interview in Triathlete magazine, Dave Scott (still sponsored by Centurion) said he was looking forward to trying out the TT funny bike in the 1987 season however he ended up with the newly invented aero bars instead.

The centurion small front wheel bikes we're designed for the smaller statured and marketed for women. They rode nice but looked funny to my eye. I much rather like the look of the TT funny bikes.

Also not that particular Centurion TT bike but the Ironman has been copied/faked several times as documented on this thread. Anybody remember the "jack scott"? Or those ones out of Denver by cycleart?

seypat

I probably have some 38 or 40 bars. I also have a Terry female saddle. That might be of interest. I got some tires and tubes. I will look tomorrow and see what is in the "used but still usable" tire inventory. Same for the bars. I can send some levers as well.

VintageTTfan

I am not disputing you....but can you point me to where on this very long thread it documents that Ironman's were counterfeited.? That just seems so weird. Were they fakes made back in their heyday or in recent times? Were these counterfeits one offs or were runs of at least 125 made because Centurion Turbo TT's are documented for around 125 so far. What would be the point of doing that now as they are not that expensive?

I am not sure what started the idea that this bike might be a counterfeit or a fake. Just because it is super rare and it might be an abandoned project or a frame only project does not mean it is fake. Also for the Centurion Turbo TT to be faked ...what would be the point? Centurion's were not known for time trials or for that kind of high level bicycle. How good are the fakes of the Ironman's? The Centurion Turbo TT has the look and feel of absolute authenticity. I have shown it to mechanics who specialize in vintage bikes. Another point is: Would it be worth the time and money and work to make a fake like that and then not go with a high priced brand. Can anyone else weigh in on this.....because I for myself find it impossible to believe the Centurion Turbo TT is a fake or counterfeit. It makes more sense that is was either an abandoned project or something that was sold as frame only. German Centurion did sell another bike where you could just get the frame. Here is the picture:

You can see what I refer to in the lower right hand side.

seypat

Since I am such a generous person, I can probably send a couple of sets of..............valve stem caps. I know those are really hard to come by.

seypat

What are the serial numbers on the bikes in question? Do they match up with the Japanese Centurion format? I have a Japanese market Expert. It has some major differences from the Ironman Expert you see every day. But the serial number matches up.

VintageTTfan

Here are some pictures of serial numbers: (But remember these frames were made for German Centurion NOT the American Centurion....but yes they were made in Japan because it says that on the frame itself.. Here are the pictures:



These are the pictures I have with serial numbers. Maybe this will help with the detective work.The purple one is a different bike but is made by German Centurion and has similar serial numbers. The purple one is the Expert Lady which is proved to be legit by the catalog picture I posted too. The serial numbers are similar between this and the Centurion Turbo TT from Germany also. Since the serial numbers are similar would that help prove that the Turbo TT is not a counterfeit or fake? Let me know what you conclude from comparing serial numbers between this Expert Lady and Turbo TT:

Also Please describe the Japanese Centurion format. What is an example of it? Also, what is the serial number on your Japanese market Expert? Thanks so much for your help.

texaspandj

Oh I'm not disputing the veracity of the TT turbo Centurion. Like you I believe they are NOS frames that were never issued. I was just pointing out that as inexpensive as the Ironman is, it has been faked. Weird but true.
I'll try to find a pic for you.

RobbieTunes

I don't think anyone stated the Turbo TT/Funny frame was a fake. I do remember, once I had one in my mitts, that I thought it was from Centurion, Japanese vintage, because the paint was very good, lugs in line with Centurion, font was the same, etc.

T-Mar advised that it was Japanese, and Centurion, but Centurion Germany, mainly due to the time frame, etc. His extensive research on everything gave us the info we needed, and the bridge from Japan to Germany, as far as licensed distributors, we were slow to cross, even after he built it. They are NOS frames.

Now, the fake Ironman bikes, yes, they're out there, and no one really knows why. A guy in Colorado and at least one other offered Ironman bikes that were repaints with what looked like one-off decal sets that said Ironman but really didn't match up.

I myself have had 3 Ironman bikes re-done in powdercoat. One solid white, and I had decals made, in the Ironman style, that substituted words of my choosing. One was solid red, and as it was an '89, I used 1989 decals, so it was a legit re-do, just in powdercoat instead of paint. It went to cehowardGS. And my last one was "NotYourDaddy'sIronman," which was a re-do in dark grey metallic with black gold and burgundy decals from VeloCals. As it was 56cm, I can no longer ride it, and it's sitting here, with it's Look carbon fork, just waiting for some person to snap it up. Gold cable housings, etc.

My favorite Ironman re-do was one done long ago, in the NE US, by a guy who actually duplicated the smoked purple fade in a paint booth, then used decals from VeloCals, and it was a stunner. There have been several here who repainted trashed Ironman bikes, and if I recall, one in green really, really stood out.

texaspandj

@VintageTTfan go to page 36 post 876 and you will find the begining discussion of the Ironman imposter.
Actually way later in the thread it comes up again.

RobbieTunes

Pat, I think your Expert was an Asian market Centurion during the WSI import time. The Asian market, which included Australia, didn't have the Dave Scott rights (and in Australia, probably not a good marketing idea).

The others discussed here are the ones licensed in Germany, and the serial numbers are a bit different, though still made in Japan. T-Mar deciphered them in the TT/Funny thread about Centurions. It think it was "Centurion Experts.... " or something like that.

RobbieTunes

Up early, aren't we?

seypat

Tire wise, I have the following sets that could be sent:
Schwalbe Blizzard 700/23
Conti Gaterskins (dark gummies) 700/23
Bontrager T2? 700/23
Panaracer Pasala PT gummies 700/25

I some Pedro levers and some tubes.
1 Sakae Custom Road Champion bars 15.75/40mm out-out

Patrick

seypat

Regarding the TT Turbos, the serial numbers are giving you some of the story. Just the 3 you posted show it was not a one off limited edition like the C Equipe or the Italian Lotuses. Different years on those 3. As for why they keep showing up/coming after the person said limited amount, here is what I think. The seller in Greece, (we shall refer to him as Danny Zuko) is a current/former industry rep or is connected to one. He/she keeps track of the trends in the C&V world. Might be a BF reader. As he/she is making the rounds, he is scouring the shops and his contacts for C&V items that he can make a buck from. Probably a really good side hustle.

As for the forks, that is a time when bikes were beginning to experiment with different frame materials. Maybe the forks were available in steel, carbon or aluminum and were ordered separately.

TriBiker19 

I have a cat that steals those whenever she has a chance. I still haven't figured out where she's stashing them. There must be at least a dozen hidden somewhere around here. At least I hope they're hidden and not being consumed... Maybe I shouldn't have named her Puppy?