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Are Drop bars just an illusion for most?

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Are Drop bars just an illusion for most?

Old 10-19-19, 10:11 AM
  #626  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
“Emergency braking” is just what it implies. Done out of necessity without prior planning. Do you ride exclusively in the drops at all times?
Of course not. I ride in the drops whenever it's likely I may need to emergency brake.

Like the other night. I was coasting down a straight 6% grade in a residential neighborhood with good pavement. But since it was dark, and my ability to see in the distance was compromised, I was in the drops. Good thing, too, because a deer jumped out in front of me. I emergency braked and avoided a nasty collision.

You’ve been shown lots and lots and lots of examples of professional racers racing on surfaces that are far worse than just uneven or rough pavement while on the hoods.
Incorrect. Some people have posted photos of pros riding on hoods, with no context. However, pros take stupid risks all the time. They are not a great example to emulate.

Most people are going to be more cautious on unfamiliar roads, never mind during poor visibility. They aren’t really going to be going that fast and need to be more upright to scan the road.
Unfamiliar roads bring unexpected hazards. Many of those hazards are better handled while in the drops. If you are prepared, you can ride at a decent pace and still avoid hazards. One way to be prepared is to ride in the drops, with fingers on the brake levers.

And how is that going to help in a crosswind? Your surface area isn’t any different from the side when down in the drops than when upright.
Lower profile means the tipping torque is less (compare van to sedan), and a good grip on the hooks makes it easier to perform steering corrections.

(Sprinting is) more of a racer thing. Even then there are examples of people sprinting from the hoods and winning a race. Perhaps it’s bad form but last I checked, bicycle racing doesn’t award points for style and/or artistic merit. Most of the rest of us aren’t going to be sprinting to win a race in the first place.
Sprinting in the drops is faster, and it offers better control. Even a recreation rider who has raced someone for the town limit sign knows that. But of course, if you never sprint, learning this technique has no value.
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Old 10-19-19, 10:19 AM
  #627  
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This guy argues that front ends on pro road bikes are lower now than they used to be, so that riding on the hoods of a modern bike is about like riding the drops of a racing machine from the past.

https://bikeretrogrouch.blogspot.com...positions.html

Then:



Vs. Now:

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Old 10-19-19, 10:28 AM
  #628  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
emergency braking is actually a better argument against riding the actual drops and sticking to the hooks in all situations.
I disagree. Given the known fact that braking is more effective from the drops, it's clear that it is the preferred position for emergency braking.

riding the hoods is, if anything, superior to the drops and hooks in the poor visibility/unfamiliar road situation as the rider's ability to scan by swivel neck is much greater.
What's the matter, is there something wrong with your neck? Because my range of vision is the same on the hoods and the hooks. Oh wait, I can see slightly more of the sky when on the hoods. That's helpful.

Also, the higher posture will also likely make the rider more visible.
That's irrelevant. The difference in head height between hoods and drops is minimal.

I also can't help but notice that most of that list is only a problem if you're going too fast to stay within normal safety margins.
Since many accidents occur at slow to moderate speeds, riding in a manner to reduce the chance of accidents is prudent.
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Old 10-19-19, 10:55 AM
  #629  
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Am I the only guy who instinctively knows when and where my grip should be? The absolute statements being made here mean nothing out on the road.
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Old 10-19-19, 11:28 AM
  #630  
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The legs that this thread has are amazing... cudo's to the OP!

Pickettt, you have it right. No matter the intellectual arguing that could go on forever, the acid test is to just look out on the streets and see what people are actually doing. Hard to argue with reality.

Originally Posted by terrymorse
What's the matter, is there something wrong with your neck? Because my range of vision is the same on the hoods and the hooks. Oh wait, I can see slightly more of the sky when on the hoods. That's helpful.

Since many accidents occur at slow to moderate speeds, riding in a manner to reduce the chance of accidents is prudent.
Terry, you're just going in circles trying to justify your preference as something other. First you argue it's the best for maximum control on fast descents and now it's preferred for slow to moderate speeds. No one, not even the pros, unless they are trying to win an internet argument, agrees with that. It's why most people, even those competing in the TdF or the rough conditions of Roubiax, use the hoods A LOT. It's more energy efficient and relaxed over distance.

People don't stay in the drops over extended periods at slow to moderate speeds because it does put more strain on the body than riding on the hoods - that's why even the pros use the hoods, most of the time. They conserve their bodies for the few times drops do make a difference. When pros sprint or do high speed descents/corners they may go to the drops, but if the average recreational rider doesn't sprint or descend rapidly like that they have no need for the drops. Hence the original observation and question. The fact that you see most people riding the hoods, most of the time, and not the drops, shows that.

Last edited by Happy Feet; 10-19-19 at 11:40 AM.
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Old 10-19-19, 12:01 PM
  #631  
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet
First you argue it's the best for maximum control on fast descents and now it's preferred for slow to moderate speeds.
Incorrect. I did not state that drops are "preferred for slow to moderate speeds". I stated a list of scenarios in which drops are beneficial, scenarios which may occur at any range of speeds.

Originally Posted by Happy Feet
People don't stay in the drops over extended periods at slow to moderate speeds because it does put more strain on the body than riding on the hoods - that's why even the pros use the hoods, most of the time.
As do most cyclists. However, most experienced cyclists intuitively know when to use drops for increased control. Unfortunately, there are many riders who have never learned how to use the drops and see no need to learn. They are missing out.

Which brings us back to the original theme of this thread: a large number of riders who have drop bars don't know how to use them effectively. They might as well cut them off below the brake clamp.
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Old 10-19-19, 12:01 PM
  #632  
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Originally Posted by pickettt
Am I the only guy who instinctively knows when and where my grip should be? The absolute statements being made here mean nothing out on the road.
you'd think signaling would be instinctive too.


but apparently stupid has no limits, which includes the world of cycling.

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Old 10-19-19, 12:17 PM
  #633  
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Originally Posted by terrymorse

As do most cyclists. However, most experienced cyclists intuitively know when to use drops for increased control. Unfortunately, there are many riders who have never learned how to use the drops and see no need to learn. They are missing out.

Which brings us back to the original theme of this thread: a large number of riders who have drop bars don't know how to use them effectively. They might as well cut them off below the brake clamp.
Using the Drops also engages the Glutes. No different than standing involves different muscles.

guys that argue Drops puts more strain on the body, are the guys that Don't engage that muscle group often enough. Poor training, along with bad bicycle fit.

I can ride longer in the drops, because my largest muscle is being used. Then again it's nice to have a fit where I can ride in many positions. It's also nice to have a fit where my saddle is just a perch rather than a place to plop my butt down.

I would wager that the majority of cyclist don't have core strength to go along with there ill fitting bicycles. but hey they trained to fit on an ill fitting bicycle, so that is what feels good to them. They'll never know different, because of habits being hard to break.
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Old 10-19-19, 12:17 PM
  #634  
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Originally Posted by Lemond1985
This guy argues that front ends on pro road bikes are lower now than they used to be, so that riding on the hoods of a modern bike is about like riding the drops of a racing machine from the past.

https://bikeretrogrouch.blogspot.com...positions.html

Then:



Vs. Now:

Look at the angles of the back. In the "Then" image the back is quite a bit flatter than the back in the "Now image.

Cheers
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Old 10-19-19, 12:18 PM
  #635  
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Originally Posted by Metieval
you'd think signaling would be instinctive too.


but apparently stupid has no limits, which includes the world of cycling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jrn_rzIOkK8
So much for that argument that riding the hoods makes a rider more visible. Or that riding the hoods increases what a rider sees.

apparently his emergency hood braking job malfunctioned also....LOL

Last edited by Metieval; 10-19-19 at 12:21 PM.
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Old 10-19-19, 12:30 PM
  #636  
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I should know better than to get involved in a ****show like this, but anyone saying that firmer grip leads to better control has zero clue about the topic of bike handling.
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Old 10-19-19, 12:30 PM
  #637  
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Originally Posted by Metieval
Using the Drops also engages the Glutes.
Using the drops also requires an increased hip flexion angle, which may be difficult for people who can't touch their toes.

On the topic of muscle engagement, I found this cool infographic. It appears that glutes are engaged at the top of the pedal stroke:



Muscles used during a pedal string - Highland Training
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Old 10-19-19, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by terrymorse
Using the drops also requires an increased hip flexion angle, which may be difficult for people who can't touch their toes.

On the topic of muscle engagement, I found this cool infographic. It appears that glutes are engaged at the top of the pedal stroke:



Muscles used during a pedal string - Highland Training
Cool!

and people that can't touch their toes, and don't try to touch their toes will never ever be able to touch their toes.

It's easier to argue to not use the drops than it it is to bend over multiple times multiple times a day. The magic number is 7! stretch 7 times at one go. and do it multiple times a day.
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Old 10-19-19, 09:05 PM
  #639  
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Originally Posted by terrymorse
Using the drops also requires an increased hip flexion angle, which may be difficult for people who can't touch their toes.

On the topic of muscle engagement, I found this cool infographic. It appears that glutes are engaged at the top of the pedal stroke:



Muscles used during a pedal string - Highland Training
Oh goody! Another candidate for inclusion in the next edition of the
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Old 10-20-19, 02:34 AM
  #640  
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Originally Posted by terrymorse
I disagree. Given the known fact that braking is more effective from the drops, it's clear that it is the preferred position for emergency braking.



What's the matter, is there something wrong with your neck? Because my range of vision is the same on the hoods and the hooks. Oh wait, I can see slightly more of the sky when on the hoods. That's helpful.

That's irrelevant. The difference in head height between hoods and drops is minimal.

Since many accidents occur at slow to moderate speeds, riding in a manner to reduce the chance of accidents is prudent.
This is just a string of such stupid statements, I'm in awe.
First, I carefully distinguished between riding the drops vs. riding the hooks, and said that the worst position for emergency braking is the drops, much worse than the hoods. Unless you have a unique brake handle arrangement, this is undeniable.

I'm simply astounded that you don't know that your ability to look over your shoulder is much better in a more upright position. Nothing wrong with my neck, just the simple fact that the more I'm leaning forward, the less useful information I can get from turning my head. You have it absolutely backwards, turning your head while leaning forward can reveal things next to you up to a certain point, but turning it further just reveals more sky. If you're upright, turning your head further reveals more angles at the relevant "that could hit me" level. It's shocking that you don't know this, it's a primary reason why a lot of urban bikes are flat bars.

If you're more upright, you present a higher profile to vehicle drivers behind you. It's not your head position that matters much, it's your back. It's not a huge effect, but it does make you slightly more visible which could be critical in a low-visibility situation like fog.

Your last statement is just a truism, applicable at any speed. It's also question-begging at its worst.
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Old 10-20-19, 09:06 AM
  #641  
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Originally Posted by Metieval
Cyclocross even has a way higher percentage of accidents VS road racing. Probably in part because many of them are on the hoods. It's a risk they willingly take! Just because they take a risk on the best control, doesn't change that there isn't, or is more control.
That’s the most ridiculous statement anyone has made in this thread. You are grasping at straws now. I will agree that cyclocross has a way higher percentage of crashes (not “accidents”) than road riding or racing because of the nature of the event. Narrow tires on loose uneven surfaces is the reason for the higher percentage of crashes. The crashes don’t occur because people are riding the hoods. Wide tires on uneven surfaces result in more crashes for mountain bike riders as well but it’s not because they are using flat bars.

Originally Posted by Metieval
yet YOU yourself, will say that because you see Cyclocross racers not using drops, there fore other shouldn't.


Nice hypocrisy on your argument.
No. I have not said people shouldn’t ride in the drops. I’ve said people don’t and that there is no issue in doing so. You’ve said that people should ride on the hoods because they will crash.

Originally Posted by Metieval
Endo.... cyclocross HOOD riding


Cyclocross hood riding ENDO


So many endos in cyclocross racing, and MOST of them will be while riding on the hoods.
Really?! Neither of your examples can be blamed on riding on the hoods. The first was caused by the guy not lifting the rear wheel over a log and the other was due to sand and narrow tires. Riding in the drops in either case wouldn’t have prevented the crash. Riding flat bars on a mountain bike might not have prevented the crashes.
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Old 10-20-19, 09:45 AM
  #642  
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Originally Posted by terrymorse
Of course not. I ride in the drops whenever it's likely I may need to emergency brake.
You plan your emergencies? An emergency is usually unplanned...otherwise it wouldn’t be an “emergency”.

Originally Posted by terrymorse
Incorrect. Some people have posted photos of pros riding on hoods, with no context. However, pros take stupid risks all the time. They are not a great example to emulate.
No. Correct. All kinds of videos have been posted of pros riding on hoods on downhills, sprints, cyclocross, etc. Videos are kind of hard to take out of context.

Originally Posted by terrymorse
Unfamiliar roads bring unexpected hazards. Many of those hazards are better handled while in the drops. If you are prepared, you can ride at a decent pace and still avoid hazards. One way to be prepared is to ride in the drops, with fingers on the brake levers.
So you do ride 100% in the drops, right? I’ve ridden 10,000 miles of unfamiliar roads over the last 20 years while touring most of the US. I’m not talking about “unfamiliar” as in I haven’t been on that road in my area but unfamiliar as in I’ve never been in the area in my life. Very, very few of those miles have been in the drops. As has been pointed out to you elsewhere, even the pros don’t spend 100% of the time in the drops.

Originally Posted by terrymorse
Sprinting in the drops is faster, and it offers better control. Even a recreation rider who has raced someone for the town limit sign knows that. But of course, if you never sprint, learning this technique has no value.
Ah, the classic veiled Bike Forum insult. I know how to sprint. I sprint from stoplights all the time. I do it from the hoods for the same reason that I climb out of the saddle on the hoods. I can put more force on the pedals from the hoods than I can from the drops. If if I were sprinting for the town limit sign, I’d probably sprint from the hoods because changing hand positions to the drops takes too much time and I’d lose the sprint.
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Old 10-20-19, 09:49 AM
  #643  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
First, I carefully distinguished between riding the drops vs. riding the hooks, and said that the worst position for emergency braking is the drops, much worse than the hoods. Unless you have a unique brake handle arrangement, this is undeniable.
Semantic nit picking, congratulations. It's obvious to any sensible person that my general statement "braking in the drops" meant morse specifically "braking in the hooks".

I'm simply astounded that you don't know that your ability to look over your shoulder is much better in a more upright position.
I'm not astounded that you don't know the proper way to look behind you when in the drops. If you did, you would know that the field of vision is the same as when upright, and you wouldn't make such an error.

If you're more upright, you present a higher profile to vehicle drivers behind you. It's not your head position that matters much, it's your back. It's not a huge effect, but it does make you slightly more visible which could be critical in a low-visibility situation like fog.
No, it's not a huge effect. It's a trivial effect. Further nit picking. Do better.

Your last statement is just a truism, applicable at any speed. It's also question-begging at its worst.
Nonsense. Good bike handling skills are useful at a range of speeds, and my statement of this "truism" corrects your erroneous claim above that these techniques are only useful because "you're going too fast to stay within normal safety margins".
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Old 10-20-19, 10:13 AM
  #644  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
You plan your emergencies? An emergency is usually unplanned...otherwise it wouldn’t be an “emergency”.
Are you just arguing to hear yourself type now? Any experience rider intuitively knows when conditions make emergency braking more likely. Approaching blind driveways, descending in the dark, to name just two. Just last week, I was going about 20mph in the dark, when a deer jumped out into the road in front of me. I was already in the drops, because the conditions warranted it (it was dark). Emergency braking saved me from a nasty collision.

All kinds of videos have been posted of pros riding on hoods on downhills, sprints, cyclocross, etc.
I don't recall seeing a video like that in this thread. Nevertheless, I stand by my statement that pros take lots of stupid risks and should not be emulated in daily riding.

So you do ride 100% in the drops, right?
Of course not, you really should not be making that ridiculous assertion. I ride in the drops when I recognize that conditions warrant it, as do most experienced road cyclists.

If if I were sprinting for the town limit sign, I’d probably sprint from the hoods because changing hand positions to the drops takes too much time and I’d lose the sprint.
Thank you for stating that you'd probably lose the sprint on the hoods, with a tacit admission that sprinting in the drops is a superior technique. I take that as progress.
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Old 10-20-19, 11:24 AM
  #645  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
You plan your emergencies? An emergency is usually unplanned...otherwise it wouldn’t be an “emergency”.


I do,
that is why I wear HELMETS, wear seat belts in cars, wash my hands often, AND USE the DROPS often!
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Old 10-20-19, 11:32 AM
  #646  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
That’s the most ridiculous statement anyone has made in this thread.
According to your opinion.....
which, as of up to this point in time, has been rubbish.


Originally Posted by cyccommute
I will agree that cyclocross has a way higher percentage of crashes (not “accidents”) than road riding or racing because of the nature of the event. Narrow tires on loose uneven surfaces is the reason for the higher percentage of crashes. The crashes don’t occur because people are riding the hoods. Wide tires on uneven surfaces result in more crashes for mountain bike riders as well but it’s not because they are using flat bars.



No. I have not said people shouldn’t ride in the drops. I’ve said people don’t and that there is no issue in doing so. You’ve said that people should ride on the hoods because they will crash.



Really?! Neither of your examples can be blamed on riding on the hoods. The first was caused by the guy not lifting the rear wheel over a log and the other was due to sand and narrow tires. Riding in the drops in either case wouldn’t have prevented the crash. Riding flat bars on a mountain bike might not have prevented the crashes.
yet you totally ignore that Fact that a guy hits an object (large stone on a flat road) and looses his grip from the hoods.

you have No Idea that if a guy was to endo while in the drops that he couldn't save it. You are Projecting that a rider can't!


I personally have saved many endos on a MTB flat bar, because my Thumbs were hooked.

I have also saved 1 endo on a drop bar. Same reason, my hands were absolutely locked in and I maintained control. Meaning I kept the wheel straight and it kept rolling! Which generally takes 2 hands still on the bar. UNLIKE the guy on the gravel bike previously posted in this thread.
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Old 10-20-19, 11:37 AM
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One of you posters have argued in this thread that the video of the gravel guy lost his grip on the hoods because his elbows were locked.

Guess what.... elbows locked while in the drops won't cause your hands to bounce out of the Drops. Drops are still superior for grip.
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Old 10-20-19, 11:39 AM
  #648  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
You plan your emergencies? An emergency is usually unplanned...otherwise it wouldn’t be an “emergency”.




I also plan for my emergencies with tubes, patch kits, tire pumps and Co2.

I could keep going for a long time on how I and others plan for emergencies. I probably will too, unless you want to concede that Planning for emergencies is VALID!
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Old 10-20-19, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by terrymorse
Are you just arguing to hear yourself type now?
Pot. Kettle. Black.

Originally Posted by terrymorse
Any experience rider intuitively knows when conditions make emergency braking more likely. Approaching blind driveways, descending in the dark, to name just two. Just last week, I was going about 20mph in the dark, when a deer jumped out into the road in front of me. I was already in the drops, because the conditions warranted it (it was dark). Emergency braking saved me from a nasty collision.
A situation where you have to brake in an emergency is a random event. You can’t “prepare” for it unless you expect it. If you expect it, it’s not an emergency. A deer jumping out in front of bicyclist could happen at any moment and, unless you ride 100% of the time in the drops or perhaps have an early warning deer system, you can’t “prepare” for that event.

Originally Posted by terrymorse
I don't recall seeing a video like that in this thread. Nevertheless, I stand by my statement that pros take lots of stupid risks and should not be emulated in daily riding.
You haven’t been paying attention then. Additionally, you’ve been telling us all along to follow the advice of “experts” who are those pros you say take stupid risks. So which is it, pay attention to the “experts” and emulate them or pay no attention to the experts but follow their advice.

Originally Posted by terrymorse
Of course not, you really should not be making that ridiculous assertion. I ride in the drops when I recognize that conditions warrant it, as do most experienced road cyclists.
I’m not making an assertion that you haven’t already made. You’ve told us that no one can brake effectively from the hoods which implies that no one should ride on the hoods. Again, you are telling us to do two entirely opposite things.

Originally Posted by terrymorse
Thank you for stating that you'd probably lose the sprint on the hoods, with a tacit admission that sprinting in the drops is a superior technique. I take that as progress.
Pay attention. I said that if I moved hand position to the drops, I’d lose a sprint. The loss wouldn’t be because of the technique, it would be because of the time taken to shift hand positions. If nothing else, shifting hand positions would be a signal to an opponent that you are going to sprint.
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Old 10-20-19, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
You plan your emergencies? An emergency is usually unplanned...otherwise it wouldn’t be an “emergency”.




I also plan for my emergencies with a planned evacuation routes and meeting points.

This also applies to Bicycling. My Planned route on ANY right hand blind corner is in the left tire track out by the yellow line! Which leaves me with more time in the YOU can see me now location. And I am in the drops, just in case.
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