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Disc Brakes; Yay or Nay?

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Disc Brakes; Yay or Nay?

Old 08-27-18, 11:25 AM
  #226  
79pmooney
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Originally Posted by Point


... Really - anybody in this thread personally have a wheel blow off due to heating from rim brakes? How many have personally worn out the braking surface of a rim? A properly set up rim brake is simple and effective. ...
I blew out a sewup descending Mt Washington on rim brakes. (Rim was too hot to touch and the tape melted.)

And worn out rims? Everybody who commutes Portland winters and has hills with stops does it regulalry. My winter bike rims go two winters - maybe. At that point the concave of the rim surface is, oh, 1.5 mm? (I never measured, but it is scary real. One rim blew off sounding like a gunshot from inside the house.)

I am not a disc fan. Good rim brakes work very well and I love that all the issues can be seen with the naked eye (well, all except broken cable strands at the exit from the brake hoods - replace cables regularly). In fact, rim brakes are the notable exception to the "rule" that you can have any two of strong, light and cheap. The Mafac Racers from the 1950s did all three quite nicely. Modern Shimano dual pivots likewise. And a whole lotta others. (The Grande Compes I raced an eon ago were sweet as are the SunTour Superbes on my current road fix gear. And the mis-matched sidepulls I put on my "Team Dumpster - $15 plus levers, the front caliper bent - were real stoppers.) But there are places where they have issues. In the lava dust land of the Pacific northwest, rim wear is very real. Wet weather stopping must be approached with common sense. But even with those very real challenges in my hometown, cheap, light, strong, simple -I forgot simple! - works for me.

Ben
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Old 08-27-18, 11:28 AM
  #227  
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Originally Posted by wsteve464
This should end the disc brake debate, proof they are extremely dangerous, they burst into flames. LOL
But who doesn't want a bike that blows its own smoke rings???

Seriously tho, that video should show you how ridiculous the notion of overheating them to their failure point actually is.
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Old 08-27-18, 11:30 AM
  #228  
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Originally Posted by aclinjury


I will repeat, head over to mtbr brake forum and there is a load of issues about disc brakes. You don’t need to over think.
And how many of those people are actually ditching discs for cantis or V, versus just whining about it or asking for help???
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Old 08-28-18, 01:28 PM
  #229  
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Yay, enough said
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Old 08-29-18, 11:26 AM
  #230  
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney
I blew out a sewup descending Mt Washington on rim brakes. (Rim was too hot to touch and the tape melted.)

And worn out rims? Everybody who commutes Portland winters and has hills with stops does it regulalry. My winter bike rims go two winters - maybe. At that point the concave of the rim surface is, oh, 1.5 mm? (I never measured, but it is scary real. One rim blew off sounding like a gunshot from inside the house.)

Ben
Yes, rim wear is real in the Pac NW. If I were just running one bike, I would get max two years out of a set of rims. But the likelihood of killing a rim due to hitting a pothole or a curb is about as high as death from erosion.

When my rims do get concave, then I replace (just) the rims. You pull (another) Mavic GP4 off of the rack, tape it to the old rim with electrical tape, and spend the hour transferring the spokes over. I did this last weekend while watching a rerun of Matlock. Takes about an hour, and another 10 minutes for final truing. Good as new. As long as you haven't had a racoon commit suicide in your spokes, they are perfectly fine - despite the Armageddon prophesies that you bike shop will give you.

I think a big drive towards road disks, apart from the ability of the industry to sell something new and improved, is the inability of your average cyclist to true a wheel. I work at a local bike Co-op, and almost every wheel I see come through our door is wobbling untrue by at least a couple of mm, enough to seriously impact braking, and have the customers silently cursing the bike manufacturer for months prior to them coming through out door.

It usually takes me a few minutes (on the bike) to fix these minor problems, at which point the owners express astonishment, as if I am some kind of latter-day Mozart, or idiot-savant, who can recite Pi to a thousand digits. So disks avoid this problem: by dumbing-down (even further) simple maintenance requirements, the customer stays happier longer, although with perpetually wobbly wheels.
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Old 08-29-18, 02:07 PM
  #231  
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Originally Posted by Point


Two decades? Rim brakes have been effective for 80 or more years, and still work well. Really - anybody in this thread personally have a wheel blow off due to heating from rim brakes? How many have personally worn out the braking surface of a rim? A properly set up rim brake is simple and effective. Besides, a rim brake is a disc brake, only the whole wheel is the disc
Drum brakes used to be standard for years on cars also. Now they come with disc brakes.

Just sayin'
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Old 05-26-19, 08:30 AM
  #232  
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Originally Posted by cyclintom
You can ride anything that the business can sell you. Disk brakes do not have "better modulation" than regular rim brakes. I won't argue that your rims will last longer if you won't argue that you're going to spend a hell of a lot more time replacing the disk pads. And the light weight disks wear out pretty rapidly. Though you are correct that it saves your $5,000 carbon wheels from wearing out from braking on the rims.


You have seen that changing a "through axle" on race bikes is so slow that the team car simple gives racers a new bike and changes the wheels later. The reason that through axles are necessary is because with a rim brake the force of stopping is at the fork crown/head tube whereas with a disk brake the stopping force is all at the axle. That makes the entire fork a lever capable of breaking. I don't think that normal 8 mm axles would break but the manufacturers certainly must be getting worried to put in 10 mm axles (25% larger) with a wrap-around locking mechanism.


There are plenty of reasons to use improving technology. BB30 cranks are narrower and if the BB is properly made and you use sealed ceramic bearings they will damn near last forever. With the narrower base you can be more efficient with your pedal stroke.


On a car or truck you have POWER braking systems completely with a fluid reservoir so that you can have very deep brake pads and as they wear down the fluid levels are renewed automatically. You don't have that on a bike so any wear on the brake pad shows up as level pull. It doesn't take long for the brake to bottom out against the bar. So you replace the pad to bring everything back to normal. Plus disk brakes have a hell of a lot more aero-drag. The TT bikes ALL use rim brakes.


Using tubeless tires has been an eye-opener to me. Wider, softer tires ride so much better that the old high pressure race tires we used to use seem silly now. The race teams are using tube tires instead of tubular and they are 26-27 mm wide. They are still getting a lot of flats because they are using those super low rolling resistance cotton ply tires that you could puncture with an evil look.


The long and the sort of it is that there are advances that are made to make the product better and others that aren't advances - only changes to help sell a new and "better" product. I have a couple of CX/gravel bikes and there is no question that good V-brakes have MUCH better modulation and only fractionally less power. And they don't squeal.
But rims on rim brake bikes do wear out, And when you do have to replace, it you either have to buy whole new wheels, or or replace the rim yourself(and you will need a nipple wrench, a truing stand, a dishing tool, a spoke tension meter, and countless hours of your time), or pay a shop a arm or leg, or
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Old 05-28-19, 03:07 AM
  #233  
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ok so real quick lets look at what disc brakes change , and allow possible .

first thing that they change is stopping power , a quality set will give you smooth powerful stops with very little tire skid , ( see cgn video ) but will add weight which means less efficiency and a potentially harder ride !

next point for discs are they take the wear and tear off the wheel , a bit more , the wheel might last longer , becuase the disc rotor wears out over the rim brake track .
also no heat goes into your bead and tire area , making long descents worry free , and thats basically what they are best as is taking the wear point from the wheel and putting on the rotor , the single most import reason to use discs after safer stops is less wear on your wheel , allowing for longer wheel life .

either way will work in theory , rim brakes are lighter cheaper , some what easier to use , when considering the hydrolic lines on some discs , and also dont need special shifters , so its more like Di2 or etap , you dont need it but its good to have , in certain situations ..

all i know if my friends 10,000 madone disc is heavier than my madone 7 rim , and is size small , so im happy with rim for now !!!!
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Old 05-28-19, 04:04 AM
  #234  
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As a user of hydro discs I simply wouldn't ever go back to cables if given the choice. Yes I do also have bikes with cable rim brakes, but only because they won't take discs.

My Shimano Zee are far better than my Magura Louise, though.
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Old 05-28-19, 06:55 AM
  #235  
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I love disk brakes and wish I had them on my 2016 Cervelo R2. Although they have stopped well even down steep mountains!
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Old 05-28-19, 07:46 AM
  #236  
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I have hydro discs on four bikes (two road, two MTB) currently.

My experiences:
1. Disc brakes work better than rim brakes. They offer more modulation, more power and work in rain. I'd say Shimano brakes work far better than SRAM brakes, but SRAM brakes are still better than rim brakes. I have SRAM brakes on two bikes and Shimano brakes on the other two.
2. Rotors rub on occasion, especially after hard braking. This usually resolves very quickly as hydro brakes self center. Cable-actuated brakes don't do this and can drive you nuts. Aligning a caliper is really easy these days.
3. Discs require minimal maintenance but it's still more than cable operated brakes.. You have to bleed them every couple of years, a $50 job at my bike shop for both wheels. I replace my brake cables every year on my rim brake bike, which costs about $10-$15 in parts. Also, you do need to clean the rotors every once in a while to prevent contaminating the pads. I use denatured alcohol and do this about twice a year, takes about two minutes. So yes, more maintenance, but not much.
4. I trust discs more with carbon clinchers. They eliminate rim wear and heat generation. Could just be me.
5. Wheel changes are not any more difficult.
6. I feel that thru-axles are a safer, stronger and stiffer way to attach wheels to a bike. Granted, I've never had a QR skewer break. Again, a marginal thing, but meaningful to me personally.
7. It's not worth upgrading a bike solely for discs. However, IMO, if you're buying a ~$1,500+ bike of any sort these days I'd get one with hydro discs. There's very little downside and you get a bike that brakes better.
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Old 06-13-19, 08:46 AM
  #237  
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Originally Posted by Trevtassie
When disc brakes fail through heat build up from heavy braking, they fail to a mode of not working. With the exception of carbon rims, rim brakes don't fail from heavy braking. When heavily loaded, going down big hills you do have to think about what is happening with discs and heat. You don't with rim brakes. I still like my discs and I'm not taking them off my bike, but they are only on there because I scored them cheap as part of a package deal.
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Old 06-13-19, 08:49 AM
  #238  
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Originally Posted by KraneXL
Solutions: feather the brakes on decents, don't ride them. What's true for disc brakes is true for rim brakes as well.


One more thing,

... Regarding safety and braking performance, there is no doubt to me that disc brakes are superior to rim brakes in any situation. ...

Michael Adomeit, Head engineer, Canyon Bikes
Rim brakes do fail:
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Old 06-13-19, 08:56 AM
  #239  
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Originally Posted by BirdsBikeBinocs
OP here.

I don't understand your post. Can you clarify please.??
He's a retrogrouch.
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Old 06-13-19, 04:22 PM
  #240  
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Yep, if you don't maintain your bike, bad things happen. (Apart from the carbon)
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Old 06-13-19, 04:40 PM
  #241  
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Usually had good results with disco brakes
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Old 06-14-19, 09:46 AM
  #242  
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Originally Posted by Trevtassie
Yep, if you don't maintain your bike, bad things happen. (Apart from the carbon)
This is normal. And tire blowouts with rim brakes are not the result of poor maintenance. It's the result of the rim overheating.
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Old 06-14-19, 09:49 AM
  #243  
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Originally Posted by Point


Two decades? Rim brakes have been effective for 80 or more years, and still work well. Really - anybody in this thread personally have a wheel blow off due to heating from rim brakes? How many have personally worn out the braking surface of a rim? A properly set up rim brake is simple and effective. Besides, a rim brake is a disc brake, only the whole wheel is the disc
Maybe because you're using steel rims and tubular tires.
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Old 06-14-19, 10:39 AM
  #244  
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I don't need to have a catastrophic blowout to know that my 105 r7020 hyd discs are much, much better than my Ultegra r8000 direct mount rim brakes. I was in the "rim brakes are just fine" camp, until I got a bike with hyd discs.

Yes, rim brakes will still stop you, but I wonder if people arguing that hyd discs aren't better, either haven't ridden them, or are not riding speeds/curves/hills where the difference is glaringly apparent. To put it simply, they are confidence inspiring. You can brake later and harder, and still have more control through a curve or descent.

On a recent 50 mile ride that averaged 20mph with about 3k ft of elevation, the difference was really eye opening for me. I'm very interested to re-ride a century I did recently that had about 9k ft of elevation and had me white knuckling a few sections. I'm also now looking forward to a ride I'm doing next weekend, 120 miles w/ 17k ft.

I'm not going to rush to ditch my rim brake bike, but all future purchases will by hyd disc (with the exception of a TT bike, simply for aero purposes and lack of braking while TTing).

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Old 06-15-19, 01:26 AM
  #245  
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Originally Posted by satrain18
This is normal. And tire blowouts with rim brakes are not the result of poor maintenance. It's the result of the rim overheating.
sorry, what? Couple of blow outs on flat ground and a couple of worn out rims splitting.
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Old 06-16-19, 10:53 AM
  #246  
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The element that aren't mentioned enough for me are 1) safety and 2) comfort 3) ability to run carbon wheels daily in the mountains. Disc brakes simply better IMO, although I love the classic look of rim brakes.
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Old 06-17-19, 01:58 PM
  #247  
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Man, getting some real mixed signals on this. One of the bike-candidates I am looking at buying in the future has disc brakes. I have no prior experience with them at all. How common / likely is it for a disc to go out of true, and how easy is it to true said disc yourself? One of the things I have disliked about rim brakes is the need for a pretty true rim - sometimes that goes out of true and rubs annoyingly, requiring some fiddling around to "fix" it until I can get the rim true again. Having no truing stand, that involves a trip to a bike shop, which is itself kind of annoying. Are some brands of disc better at staying true, like a cheap rim vs a quality one can? Can one just swap in the discs they want or are there standards I need to pay attention to?

The bike in question is just listing a "Promax Mechanical".
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Old 06-17-19, 03:53 PM
  #248  
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Originally Posted by MEversbergII
Man, getting some real mixed signals on this. One of the bike-candidates I am looking at buying in the future has disc brakes. I have no prior experience with them at all. How common / likely is it for a disc to go out of true, and how easy is it to true said disc yourself? One of the things I have disliked about rim brakes is the need for a pretty true rim - sometimes that goes out of true and rubs annoyingly, requiring some fiddling around to "fix" it until I can get the rim true again. Having no truing stand, that involves a trip to a bike shop, which is itself kind of annoying. Are some brands of disc better at staying true, like a cheap rim vs a quality one can? Can one just swap in the discs they want or are there standards I need to pay attention to?

The bike in question is just listing a "Promax Mechanical".
It might need a truing if you inadvertently impact the disk against a boulder or something. Promax Mechanical will probably make you hate disc brakes if you don't maintain it properly.
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Old 06-17-19, 09:59 PM
  #249  
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OP here/.... Old thread but I'm happy to report back on my question.... Rims or Disc's.??

I went with Disc's and couldn't be happier. Such a great feel in the hands. Good feedback. Great modulation. I'm impressed. I really wanted Hyd. Disc but in the end the Specialized Diverge E5 came with Disc's and they have performed very well over a short 300 miles.

I'd recommend them to anyone.
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Old 06-18-19, 07:40 AM
  #250  
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Originally Posted by Elvo
It might need a truing if you inadvertently impact the disk against a boulder or something. Promax Mechanical will probably make you hate disc brakes if you don't maintain it properly.
Are Promax famously poor disc brakes? What goes into maintenance beyond changing out the pads?

I do have an LBS that I hire to do fiddly stuff - I seem to have bad luck keeping brakes in good shape, so I'd heard discs were less involved and started considering them.

There's a rim-brake model with fewer gears (not a big deal) but naturally not in the color I like best, ha!

Originally Posted by BirdsBikeBinocs
OP here/.... Old thread but I'm happy to report back on my question.... Rims or Disc's.??

I went with Disc's and couldn't be happier. Such a great feel in the hands. Good feedback. Great modulation. I'm impressed. I really wanted Hyd. Disc but in the end the Specialized Diverge E5 came with Disc's and they have performed very well over a short 300 miles.

I'd recommend them to anyone.

Well, that's encouraging a bit.
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