New Bike Prices Are Insane (Bike Economics)
#101
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And the fact that your premise requires the car to be driven very little (and certainly not at a competition level) makes the comparison somewhat flawed.
If your point is that if you buy a $200k car and a $15k bike and leave them both in a garage for 30 years, then the car will retain a higher percentage of it’s value, I think you may be correct.
On the other hand, if the two were both subjected to frequent competition-level use for even 10 years, I’ll wager the bike will hold it’s value better, and that is not even accounting for maintenance costs of each (which are much higher, even as a percentage of the innitial costs, for the car).
Look I am not trying to justify the price of a $15K bike. And one does not really need to, as they are rare outliers in the cycling industry and in no way an indication of what it actually costs to buy a bike.
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So if you and your competition are basically on the same talent level that the one with advanced machine would normally win the competition. The extra cost may be worth it, if it will win more races and get more sponsors and a bigger paycheck.
#103
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In 30 years if the $15,000 bike has even survived, it will be super brittle since it is mainly plastic. It would be very dangerous to ride.
It remains IMO obscenely price CF bikes are meant for professional racers that can afford to throw them away at the first sign of a crack and certainly before they become brittle.
It remains IMO obscenely price CF bikes are meant for professional racers that can afford to throw them away at the first sign of a crack and certainly before they become brittle.
Finally a voice of reason!
Not sure the model but I'm sure it cost him a lot less than $15,000. Although the owner(s) could likely get more than that for it now.
https://www.oneindia.com/internation...g-2554768.html
Last edited by AlmostTrick; 04-05-18 at 08:40 AM.
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Just out of curiosity, I looked up the cost of an F1 front wing/nose, since that is nothing but CF and a bit of hardware to hold it on a car. Even simpler device than a bike. Such an item costs an average of $300k for a single wing/nose piece.
I've seen two new bikes over $10k in my life, one the Specialized S-Works $15k job I mentioned earlier that just sat at a shop, and the other a model year old Trek that ran about $11k original but was marked down to about $8k at one of the LBS chain's closeout store.
I've seen two new bikes over $10k in my life, one the Specialized S-Works $15k job I mentioned earlier that just sat at a shop, and the other a model year old Trek that ran about $11k original but was marked down to about $8k at one of the LBS chain's closeout store.
#106
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#107
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I should have expected a comment like that coming from someone who starts repetitive, inflammatory threads.
As noted, this thread is based on a false premise. Ergo, any discussion about this fabricated topic is pointless. It's a shame that you think this forum is for pointless discussion.
As noted, this thread is based on a false premise. Ergo, any discussion about this fabricated topic is pointless. It's a shame that you think this forum is for pointless discussion.
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I should have expected a comment like that coming from someone who starts repetitive, inflammatory threads.
As noted, this thread is based on a false premise. Ergo, any discussion about this fabricated topic is pointless. It's a shame that you think this forum is for pointless discussion.
As noted, this thread is based on a false premise. Ergo, any discussion about this fabricated topic is pointless. It's a shame that you think this forum is for pointless discussion.
#109
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I think I have to disagree because 30 years ago a pretty good (not great) bike was about $1,500 and today a much more technologically advanced bike can be had for about $2,000. That's a lot less money in real terms, esp. considering the quality improvements.
For me, the main costs of cycling isn't the price of the bike, it's the time away from family to ride and the risk of traumatic injury (don't ride unless you are decently insured). Gnashing about extreme high end bike prices seems silly. My Accord was $24K and seems like a fine enough car; I don't price exotic Italian autos and say, "man, cars sure are unaffordable today".
For me, the main costs of cycling isn't the price of the bike, it's the time away from family to ride and the risk of traumatic injury (don't ride unless you are decently insured). Gnashing about extreme high end bike prices seems silly. My Accord was $24K and seems like a fine enough car; I don't price exotic Italian autos and say, "man, cars sure are unaffordable today".
#110
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Someone beat me to it; it just occurred to me last night that this whole topic has been about "first-world" problems. And certainly there are millions of those bikes in use by people earning their daily living on them. I wonder what they'd say if they saw a telecast of a modern bicycle race. Maybe, "What's all the excitement about? I do that every day, except with a 300 pound load, and dodging trucks and cattle."
Right. I think sometimes people get a little too serious in some of these threads. I'm certain I do it myself sometimes. It's ok to just have some fun with a silly topic like this. At least that's how I like to look at it. I mean com'on. A $15,000 bike for cry'n out loud!!!!
Some poke fun at the idea and others attempt to justify it. It's fun to watch! (and be part of)
Last edited by AlmostTrick; 04-05-18 at 10:58 AM.
#111
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I'm hoping my titanium Helix will balloon in value though.
Last edited by Revoltingest; 04-05-18 at 10:59 AM.
#112
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Ok, so I'm still fairly new here, and also fairly new to the sport/hobby (I've always ridden bikes here and there, and grew up
And, well, OH MY GOD. Over $15K for a bicycle. For a freakin' bicycle! Yes, it's top of the line. Yes, it's carbon fiber. But seriously? Even the slightly lesser models were over $10k, while more "run of the mill" stuff is still around $5k.
Maybe cars are more your speed? And you know what, there are quite a few entry level cars that come in around the $10K mark these days. Yes, the entire car... all four wheels of it.
.
And, well, OH MY GOD. Over $15K for a bicycle. For a freakin' bicycle! Yes, it's top of the line. Yes, it's carbon fiber. But seriously? Even the slightly lesser models were over $10k, while more "run of the mill" stuff is still around $5k.
Maybe cars are more your speed? And you know what, there are quite a few entry level cars that come in around the $10K mark these days. Yes, the entire car... all four wheels of it.
.
From KBB, 10 cheapest cars:
•Nissan Versa S Sedan, $12,780
•Chevrolet Spark LS Hatchback, $12,995
•Smart ForTwo Pure Coupe, $13,240
•Ford Fiesta S Sedan, $13,995
•Kia Rio LX Sedan, $14,350
•Ford Fiesta S Hatchback, $14,995
•Chevrolet Sonic Sedan, $14,995
•Toyota Yaris 3-door, $15,165
•Kia Soul, $15,175
•Hyundai Accent GLS Sedan, $15,340
Considering you are off on cars, I am not surprised you are off on bikes.
Motorcycles? Dead on. Even my relatively "lux" with ABS, Traction control, electronic adjustable traction, Tire pressure, heated grips, BMW F700gs cost $11K new and will do 0-60 under 3.
Oh, and gets 50-60 miles to the gallon.
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Someone mentioned a $200,000 car as compared to a $15,000 bike. In 30 years if the car is low mileage and in excellent condition, no doubt it will be worth many thousands more. In 30 years if the $15,000 bike has even survived, it will be super brittle since it is mainly plastic. It would be very dangerous to ride.
It remains IMO obscenely price CF bikes are meant for professional racers that can afford to throw them away at the first sign of a crack and certainly before they become brittle.
It remains IMO obscenely price CF bikes are meant for professional racers that can afford to throw them away at the first sign of a crack and certainly before they become brittle.
#115
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This was the comparison I had in mind (it apparently wasn't mentioned in the '63 catalog above)-- apparently, more like the Superior, being a 15 speed but, a Sierra in blue with chrome forks.
I think it is a fair comparison because the Paramount was the absolute best the company offered (based on the price), whereas the 15-spd Sierra was on the high end of pricing because it offered the latest technology but still provided a great value... which is what you get with modern hydroformed alloy frames with 105 components.
I think it is a fair comparison because the Paramount was the absolute best the company offered (based on the price), whereas the 15-spd Sierra was on the high end of pricing because it offered the latest technology but still provided a great value... which is what you get with modern hydroformed alloy frames with 105 components.
#116
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Interestingly, a 15-spd Schwinn Sierra came with a Lycette saddle. The company doesn't exist anymore (I think it was taken over by Brooks years ago). The closest thing to it now would be a B17.
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This was the comparison I had in mind (it apparently wasn't mentioned in the '63 catalog above)-- apparently, more like the Superior, being a 15 speed but, a Sierra in blue with chrome forks.
I think it is a fair comparison because the Paramount was the absolute best the company offered (based on the price), whereas the 15-spd Sierra was on the high end of pricing because it offered the latest technology but still provided a great value... which is what you get with modern hydroformed alloy frames with 105 components.
I think it is a fair comparison because the Paramount was the absolute best the company offered (based on the price), whereas the 15-spd Sierra was on the high end of pricing because it offered the latest technology but still provided a great value... which is what you get with modern hydroformed alloy frames with 105 components.
The cheapest adult bike I see in that catalog with 26” wheels is listed at $39. That is for a single speed with a coaster brake. That $39 is $312 today. You can get a single speed cruiser with a coaster brake now for a lot less than that.
#118
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How is it off perspective to compare like to like? How much does an F1 team invest in massaging CF parts in a wind tunnel? Do you honestly think Trek just has some interns sitting around coming up with their ideas? Is it that incomprehensible to you that maybe the "simple" parts arent as simple as you believe?
...
As far as the motorcycle world, you know what $15k doesn't get you new? A 1200GS BMW. Any Harley not from the Sportster lineup. Heck, just expand that to be most American bikes. Yamaha R1 and Honda CBR1000RR also are a nogo. I mean why do any of those cost near that, when I can buy brand new Enfields for $4-5k all day long?
...
As far as the motorcycle world, you know what $15k doesn't get you new? A 1200GS BMW. Any Harley not from the Sportster lineup. Heck, just expand that to be most American bikes. Yamaha R1 and Honda CBR1000RR also are a nogo. I mean why do any of those cost near that, when I can buy brand new Enfields for $4-5k all day long?
And I don't want to hear about CF frame design and aero, becuause bike frames haven't changed significantly in the past 5-10 years, and any claimed significant gains at speeds of 40 or 50mph (being very generous here) are marketing nonsense.
(Also, and this isn't on topic either, Harley's are way overpriced because of their name. The value is not equal to the sum of their parts, so that's a lousy example. Ditto the 1200GS, which is the Hummer of motorcycles and also considerably overpriced (even if it is a pretty good bike in its category). And R1 or Fireblade is just a few thousand over the 15K mark, so get serious).
What we are talking about, and try to stay focused here, is the idea that these bikes are nowhere near the value of the sum of their parts. I listed them previously, but most of them are either completely non-mechanical, or very simple mechanical parts (which, by the way, haven't changed for how many years now?) Yes, there are other products like that out there in the world, but this is the bike forum, and these bikes seem particularly out of proportion to me.
And, again, it's not just the $15K top of the like Trek. I'm not seeing the value (as described above), in the $10K model either. Even the $5K stuff seems like a stretch.
Originally Posted by rgconner
There is no such baseline car at $10K new.
From KBB, 10 cheapest cars...
Motorcycles? Dead on. Even my relatively "lux" with ABS, Traction control, electronic adjustable traction, Tire pressure, heated grips, BMW F700gs cost $11K new and will do 0-60 under 3.
From KBB, 10 cheapest cars...
Motorcycles? Dead on. Even my relatively "lux" with ABS, Traction control, electronic adjustable traction, Tire pressure, heated grips, BMW F700gs cost $11K new and will do 0-60 under 3.
Maybe I should have stuck to motorcycles, and I see you are in agreement there. Your 11K BMW has WAY more going on than even the raciest of race bikes.
Originally Posted by Bonzo Banana
Taiwan is the 'Republic of China' compared to mainland China which is 'People's Republic of China'. However many of these top bikes are actually coming out of mainland China because not only are many based in mainland China but those other companies headquartered in Taiwan manufacture in mainland China where it is much cheaper to manufacture.
Quest composites who make Trek, Canyon and others are mainland China and Fuji-ta (Cannondale and a huge number of other brands) are mainland China. Giant has factories in China although I suspect their best carbon frames are made in Taiwan (they have lost much OEM work because of their pricing of such frames).
Quest composites who make Trek, Canyon and others are mainland China and Fuji-ta (Cannondale and a huge number of other brands) are mainland China. Giant has factories in China although I suspect their best carbon frames are made in Taiwan (they have lost much OEM work because of their pricing of such frames).
Are you really saying it is China? Because that is just bonkers. And to think, people here are going on about all the meticulous engineering and wind-tunnel work that goes into these frames, and then you are going to have them made in China? My god...
Originally Posted by mstateglfr
Intrinsic value, in my eyes, is pretty much a false idea in the way we use it. Gold, the most commonly cited item with 'intrinsic value' that i hear about, doesnt have intrinsic value.
Intrinsic means naturally occurring and essential. Gold has value because we assign it value. It is a worthless metal to everything in this world but humans. That isnt intrinsic.
Water has intrinsic value.
Now this isnt exactly a common or popularly cited view, i get it.
Anyways, no a $15k bike isnt intrinsically worth that. A $5000 diamond isnt intrinsically worth that either.
Intrinsic means naturally occurring and essential. Gold has value because we assign it value. It is a worthless metal to everything in this world but humans. That isnt intrinsic.
Water has intrinsic value.
Now this isnt exactly a common or popularly cited view, i get it.
Anyways, no a $15k bike isnt intrinsically worth that. A $5000 diamond isnt intrinsically worth that either.
Maybe I invited some of this on myself by comparing cars and motorcycles, but it just seemed convenient and somewhat apt.
Originally Posted by indyfabz
My guess is that this thread, which is based on a false premise, was started for the sole purpose of generating pages of argument.
As someone said, this is a forum, and you are more than welcome to ignore this thread and this conversation.
#119
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The idea wasn't to try and figure out how much a person needs to spend on a bicycle in order to be competitive in racing, it was about the value of the item itself.
#120
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Why do you continue to compare literally the top of the racing bike technology to middling to average cars and motorcycles? Much as you want to insist otherwise, the motorcycle market comes nowhere near to stopping anywhere close to a "reasonable" level.
And I don't want to hear about CF frame design and aero, becuause bike frames haven't changed significantly in the past 5-10 years, and any claimed significant gains at speeds of 40 or 50mph (being very generous here) are marketing nonsense.
(Also, and this isn't on topic either, Harley's are way overpriced because of their name. The value is not equal to the sum of their parts, so that's a lousy example. Ditto the 1200GS, which is the Hummer of motorcycles and also considerably overpriced (even if it is a pretty good bike in its category). And R1 or Fireblade is just a few thousand over the 15K mark, so get serious).
What we are talking about, and try to stay focused here, is the idea that these bikes are nowhere near the value of the sum of their parts. I listed them previously, but most of them are either completely non-mechanical, or very simple mechanical parts (which, by the way, haven't changed for how many years now?) Yes, there are other products like that out there in the world, but this is the bike forum, and these bikes seem particularly out of proportion to me
Are you really saying it is China? Because that is just bonkers. And to think, people here are going on about all the meticulous engineering and wind-tunnel work that goes into these frames, and then you are going to have them made in China? My god...
Also, at least the Trek top of the line models are made right in the USA, not that you probably won't discount that as irrelevant too. https://www.cnbc.com/2014/08/01/in-w...-bicycles.html
I don't disagree that a $15k is a pointless expenditure for a bike for me, but I don't race competitively. If I did, it may well be a different story. In short, I get by with a $3k motorcycle and a $5k car, so obviously if you spent any more than that on your stuff, it was a pointless expenditure that I can't understand or agree with.
#121
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It seems often the assumption here is that a $15,000 (!!!!!!!) bike will outperform a model that costs less. But what if it doesn't? That sure would be funny. ...as long as you weren't the one footing the bill.
#122
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It's interesting looking at the catalog above that spending $15K on a bike today would be like spending $1,850 in 1963... you could buy a fleet of Deluxe Paramount road racers for that amount.
#125
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