Lovenutz

I cannot find any information about this torch set. I know it’s old, but it’s Harris, and it was cheap. Is decent set up for building a rack, doing braze-ons, or possibly a frame some day? I’d like to run it off propane and an O2 concentrator.
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unterhausen

it looks okay. The only issue might be that the tips might not be big enough for propane and I'm not sure you can get more

Lovenutz

Thanks Unterhausen. I think these mixers and tips below might work:

These are for the Harris model 19-6. I noticed the tips are the same as the one I have. The alternate fuel tips are underneath. If I could just find out if the mixer will fit my handle.
Model16_Model19-6_AttachA.jpg

Model16_Model19-6_AttachB.jpg

Doug Fattic 

I find this model interesting because I don't ever remember seeing one even in my 20/30 year old Harris catalogs. It appears to be a light weight model. i used an old Harris torch handle and tips designed for acetylene but used with propane in Ukraine as a substitute for the horrible Russian thing we started out with. It worked kinda okay but was not ideal. Harris is a high quality manufacturer and they are the most expensive brand on the market. However there are several cautions. The cost to buy the proper mixer and elbow and various tips to work with propane may make this deal unattractive even if it is given to you. Remember Harris accessories are going to be more expensive than other brands. I think Granger's sell Harris equipment.

Another caution is that if it is as old as I think it is, the diaphragm on the acetylene regulator probably is shot and needs to be replaced. I wouldn't want to take a chance that it might leak and go boom! If you get it serviced you can have them put in the seals that work with propane. Once you start to add up the corrections and bother you might want to start with something else.

Lovenutz

Leave it to me to find some weird mystery torch. @Doug Fattic I planned on going with the Uniweld torch setup you suggest. I thought I could save a few dollars buying this, but it sounds like that's not happening.

But it would work okay? Say If I sold off the parts I don't need and bought a new regulator? Is it just the cost of Harris stuff that makes this unattractive?

Doug Fattic 

Actually all I was suggesting was to check the prices of the Harris parts that are designed to work specifically with propane and also the cost of bringing the regulator up to safety standards. Then compare that cost with stuff that works and see if the difference is worth it to you. The O2 knob in the middle between the other knobs is to make this primarily a cutting torch and is a little weird but otherwise it might work okay for brazing. It isn't terribly expensive to have the acetylene regulator rebuilt with a new diaphragm and seals -probably a lot cheaper than the about $100 for a new propane one. The other question would be if available mixers and tips were truly propane specific. Uniweld for example says their mixer/elbow/tip combination also works with propane even though it is designed for acetylene. This is a true statement but in reality it is just a regular acetylene unit. What they leave out is that even though their regular acetylene mixer/elbow/tips works with propane it does not work as well as those designed specifically for propane. Propane mixers have more and bigger holes than acetylene mixers and propane tips have a recess on the end.

In addition there are some real advantages of using multi-port tips specifically made for propane and the threading on the Harris elbow may not be compatible with any of those tips and it might take a machinist to make some kind of adaptor. I would certainly want to know this before spending money on something that didn't work with multi-port tips. Some people love these challenging adventures to solve a specific problem while others just want to buy something that works well immediately.

There is always a kind of time/money trade off when buying old or used equipment. Is the time spent figuring everything out as well as the risk it may still not work as well worth the savings over buying what will work well right out of the box? Only you know that answer.

elcraft

As a goldsmith, I have experience with brazing torches. You should have no problem making that torch work with Propane given that you get the correct tips ( as you have already ascertained). My only caveat, is that you consider buying the Propane grade welding hose instead of your garden variety acetylene hoses. They are more expensive, but they will not degrade from the Propane. Also, consider a set of flashback arrestors for your torch lines. These devices can stop a burning hose from turning your tank into a bomb. Small money for a lot more safety.

Lovenutz

Safety is my number one priority. I would be running T grade hoses, and will definitely use flashback arresters.

The Harris propane attachments would be right around 125 dollars. Plus the 80 I payed for the torch kit and I’m at 200 bucks.

Uniweld 71 with the propane mixer/tip could be had for about 100. But then I have to add the regulators.

I saw that the price of name brand regulators starts at about 80$. So I thought I was getting a bargain. Come to find out that even though they are NIB the regs are no good? And the torch is a money pit.

Doug Fattic 

My rough guess is that the diaphragm and seals in your regulator are at least 40 years old. I certainly wouldn't trust a rubber like material that old not to leak a flammable gas. It is a standard procedure to have regulators serviced and in the process replace those parts so it will work like new again. My recommendation here is to work directly with whoever can service the regulators instead of going through a middle man. I took my regulators to my local welding supply store and the final price was double because of course they make money on the transaction too. There will be posters on frame building forums that can suggest places to get this done.

Your torch seems like it was designed primarily as a small version cutting torch. Someone might be looking for such a torch handle because of its size and might be willing to pay considerably more than what you paid for it. For example older Meco torch handles (not to be confused with the modern ones now made Victor) are prized for their light weight, semi flat shape and knob placement. They sell for a decent price. Perhaps the Harris model 11 torch handle has some followers looking for them?

Lovenutz

@Doug Fattic Thank you. If you would not run the regulators without a rebuild then there is no way I'm going to! I'll look around and try to find a place that can rebuild them. I'm in Rochester NY, I think there is an experienced builder around here, maybe he might know.

I still can't find any info on the torch. Hopefully someone will want it. Like you said, it's obscurity and expensive tips don't seem to work for my intended purpose.

Andrew R Stewart 

Mr Lovenutz- I'm here in Rochester, NY and am happy to offer help as I can. I have near zero experience with propane but do have a couple of OA set ups (and a bunch of other tooling). I've used Mahany Welding and Jackson Welding for gas and basic supplies (not filler or flux) and would start with them for regulator servicing advice. There are many fab shops too that might be a source for rebuilding info.


I'll make a general comment about expenses. So many just starting out are worried about what tools, and such, cost. While a good aspect to control there is a cost to play. If you can't afford safe equipment or shop space then maybe you're not ready to try your hand at this stuff. An example of what I consider to be misplaced cost control is found in another forum recently: a poster asked for help in ordering a $6 part so he could avoid the $16 in shipping. This to modify his frame to work with current BB standards. I somehow believe that if the part cost $16 and the shipping was $6 he would have no problem with ordering on his own. Andy

unterhausen

saving money at framebuilding doesn't work until you have spent about $10000. And even then, it's not easy. At least I can make just about any rack I want for $20.

Doug Fattic 

Lovenutz, one decent option you have is to get both regulators serviced and then sell them again as a pair and you are likely to make a little money on the deal. While propane has become a great choice for making bicycle frames (especially as a hobby) most people buy oxyacetylene units so they can have a cutting torch. NOS that has been recently serviced and cheaper than new is exactly what I would be looking for for general shop use.

Your torch handle and cutting unit is much smaller than what is commonly on the market now so I am betting someone would like a smaller unit like yours that has a special button to turn on the O2 blast. Or maybe not I'm just guessing about that .

unterhausen

where do you get regulators rebuilt? Pretty sure my LWS has no clue.

calstar 

You can buy rebuild kits for around $20 for the Victor SR-250 and SR-260, straightforward and easy to do. Other brands/models I don't know but just google AO rebuild kits and you're sure to get results.

Brian

Lovenutz

For the time being what I really want to do is braze-ons, repairs, and rack building. Building a frame may come later. I know you need jigs, reaming/facing tools, benders, ect... expensive stuff. I'd like to take a class before I attempted a frame.

I thought this might be a good way to test the waters and see if brazing is something I would like.

An oxygen machine and propane is what I want to run because I would be working in my home garage. It is the safer more convenient option for me.

What I think I will do is sell everything but the fuel regulator. I'll have that rebuilt, and then I will follow the ground work that has already been laid out. I'll get the Uniweld 71 with the Gentech propane tips.

When rebuilding the reg is there anything I should do to make it propane specific? I was told the only difference between the two was a propane regulator can run PSI higher than 15.

Lovenutz

I'll be checking out an Invacare oxygen machine this Saturday. It has something like 11,000 hours on it.

They make rebuild kits for my Harris 25 regulator. I think I might try and rebuild the fuel reg myself. It seems pretty straight forward.

The oxygen reg must be kept completely free for oil, grease, and debris. Anything in the presence of pure oxygen becomes a real fire hazard. So if I decide to rebuild the oxygen reg it will be done professionally.

duanedr 

With an Oxygen concentrator, you won't need the oxygen regulator. Just hook your hose up to the concentrator (with flashbacks/arrestors of course). It should have a built in regulator of sorts. you will need one on the propane.

Funny note - when you fire it all up to test it out and the concentrator starts beeping at you and saying it isn't making oxygen, crack open the valve on the torch to let the Oxygen flow. I got to that point and thought i had a bad concentrator.

Lovenutz

I bought the oxygen concentrator. I haven’t tested it thourougly, but it turns on and starts to hum.

It doesn’t have the brass B fitting, just a brass connector for the clear hose.

Doug Fattic 

The easiest solution to connect your welding hose to your concentrator is to use a plastic "christmas tree connector". They can be found wherever concentrator accessories are sold. These have barbs of increasing size on one end (to fit into your clear hose coming out of the concentrator) and a size B female fitting on the other. To connect this plastic piece to your hose you will need a brass male B to B fitting. Welding supply houses also carry brass barb fittings. They usually come in 2 pieces, a barb and a female nut. This way you can select both the size of the barb and the size of the nut that fit together. Just like using the christmas tree connector you will also need a male B/B connector to connect the barb/nut to your hose.

Lovenutz

Thank you all. I'm in the process of getting everything sorted out.

I met with @Andrew R Stewart; today. He was nice enough to show me around his shop and answer all my questions. He was very knowledgeable, informative, and friendly. An all around great guy. Thank you Andy.

Here are some pics of the Oxygen machine:
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IMG_1194.jpg

momo608

Seems like a big $ hassle and time waster to avoid getting a regular oxy/acetylene set up. New torch and reg sets are cheap and you can get lease tanks for the price of the gas, at least near me, then you have a real torch set up you can do all kinds of things with.

Andrew R Stewart 

Some budding builders are nervous about the tanks in their home/apartment, not all have a dedicated workshop. Also not all have easy access to a welding shop where tanks can be refilled/exchanged out.


I do agree with the worthiness of an OA set up but I won't hold anyone back if they wish to try a OP set up. Andy

unterhausen

my LWS wouldn't lease me tanks. If I had realized I could get by with a concentrator, that would have saved me $300, at least. And the last time I got acetylene, the tank was leaking, so I had to take it back. In many states, you can't legally transport acetylene in your car, and they won't deliver to a residence.

Propane/oxygen concentrator has a lot to recommend it in my view. If nothing else, going out and getting a propane tank can be done any time of the day or night, whereas the LWS has restricted hours.

Doug Fattic 

Let me explain why propane with an oxygen concentrator is probably the best choice for most beginners because of cost, safety and convenience. When I wanted to learn how to build frames in the early 70’s I went to England. Americans had lost the art of custom frame building after WWII. The exception was Albert Eisentraut – Andy Stewart’s 1st teacher. My purpose was to bring back the knowledge to teach others (I was a high school teacher) here in the States. In England we used both the hearth brazing method (a huge natural gas flame) and of course oxyacetylene. As a teacher it is my responsibility to show my students what their best options of equipment can be.

I learned how to use propane making frames in Ukraine where we do a charity bicycle project. I discovered that many of my frame building class students had problems getting pressurized tanks if they lived in larger cities. The welding supply stores wouldn’t sell or deliver to them unless they have a business address and neither would they let them transport them themselves. The answer of course is propane because they are often used for BBQs and its use isn’t regulated. Also some building codes don’t allow oxyacetylene tanks and some spouses don’t like having potential bombs near the house. Also propane is sold everywhere much closer by at much longer hours and is way cheaper. For example a refill of my large acetylene tank is $65 and a propane BBQ tank costs me less than $20. I get about 3 times as much brazing from the BBQ tank compared to my big acetylene tanks. The propane tank itself is way cheaper as well and often times people already have one.

Used oxygen concentrators cost on average about $200. They can often be found for less. A refurbished is $300. Once they are bought there is no need for the effort to go get refills and the only additional expense is electricity and maybe a filter once in awhile. They are designed to run continuously for years. They don’t require a regulator saving that cost.

Most oxyacetylene all-in-one units are not ideal for frame building even though they work. Their main market is cutting applications. The torch handle is big and the hoses are heavy. This doesn’t matter as much for experienced builders as beginners. Also those starting out have a bit easier time using propane because its slightly lower temperature gives them a bit longer to asses what they are supposed to do. I can use either one interchangeably without noticing much difference. Propane specific mixers and tips work much better than acetylene ones with propane (although acetylene ones work ok).

You make a good point about renting tanks from a welding supply store instead of buying them saving that expense (especially if one finds an oxyacetylene unit cheap or inherits one).