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Gears and Cadence

Old 07-17-19, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
Racers generally aren't built like the OP. A lot of this "one true way" mode of thinking comes from trying to emulate the strategies used by freaks of nature (professional racers' spinning abilities are many standard deviations from those of the average person) and people who may have been cheating.
That's my take. I once read that if you weigh more than 2.2 lbs per inch of height you are not going to be competitive in, say, the TdF. To put that in perspective, a 5'10" cyclist would be 154 lbs. At my my most fit cycling body, and 40 years ago, I was 5'10" and 178 lbs. I'd give a lot to be there again. Just sayin'.
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Old 07-17-19, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by terrymorse
The most important reason to increase your cadence is to spare your legs from muscle fatigue. On a long and hard ride, it's always your leg muscles that get tired. Heart and lungs can go on forever.

As an example, consider weight lifting. 10 reps at 100 pounds is more exhausting than 20 reps at 50 pounds.
I wish I could remember the actual science but if you get tired spinning you can replenish with food/drink. If you get tired powering, only rest will replenish you.
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Old 07-17-19, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by bruce19
Some actually have. I could be wrong about this but I believe LeMond was more a power guy than a spin guy.
Greg had and has a beautiful spin. As a junior he often raced with the seniors and was obliged to abide by the old junior gear restriction of 52x15. Which was zero impediment.

Those talking about low rpm climbing in the old days are absolutely correct. That was how it was done. But the same guy who grunted up the climb had to spin on the flats, because the top gear was just not that big. The whole game was to be a rider who could do both. Now everything that was done with training is supposedly accomplished with a gear lever.
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Old 07-17-19, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by BCDrums
O'Brien, cadence is very personal. Everyone has an optimal cadence.
Originally Posted by caloso
1) don't obsess over cadence
Originally Posted by big chainring
Ride the way its comfortable for you.
Originally Posted by canklecat
Ride your own natural cadence. It'll vary over time and distance anyway. As long as the bike fit is appropriate and no harm is being done to your joints, it can't be wrong.

The best cadence? Everyone has a natural cadence-- and it's not a number so much as a range. For me it's 75-85rpm. 95% of my logged rides will have an average cadence between those two numbers. I see 79 an awful lot.
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Old 07-17-19, 10:51 PM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by Cougrrcj
To the OP, I'm over on the other side of town -- in flatter Lorain County. My work commute is 12.5 miles each way, and I try to ride my trusty old steel steeds at least twice/week in our too-short Summer riding season. I've always maintained a 80-95 cadence since attending Ohio State and riding with the OSU Cycling Club. I was also introduced to riding old-school rollers back then as a tool to not only for maintaining conditioning during the Winters, but also to develop a smooth pedaling technique. Smoothness begets efficiency! With that added efficiency comes speed for the same energy expended. With my 'natural cadence' and my commuting terrain, I'm usually in a 75-85 inch-gear, that gives be riding speeds of right around 20mph. I don't think that's too bad for an over-60 that is 40 pounds overweight! Spinning at my 80-90 is easier on my old knees as well.

Sounds like you are doing great! Thanks for the comment. I plan to continue to work on the Cadence until my body adjusts to it and then I will be better able to draw conclusions about staying with it or not. After only three rides like this I am already feeling like I am making progress.

Last edited by wobrien; 07-19-19 at 11:30 PM.
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Old 07-18-19, 11:15 AM
  #56  
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Lots of responses here, none of which I read. I am sure there is good advice and bad.

There was a general rule-of-thumb I remember from years ago "if it hurts in your legs, shift to a lower gear, if it hurts in your lungs, select a higher gear."

I believe there is no perfect cadence, but different cadences for different occasions.
For instance, if you are climbing a long steep hill in your easiest gear, you cadence will probably be lower than you would normally want it when cruising on a flat surface. When going down the other side of that hill, if you want to keep putting power in the pedals, you should select a gear that allows a nice high cadence so your leg muscles can recouperate.

Anotehr scenario is when riding with a fast group, when you take your turn at the front you might want to be in a relatively high cadence trying to fight against the aerodynamic resistance so everyone else can stay in your drafe. Then, when you heart rate is redlined and you swing off to drift to thee back of the pack for a break, you can shift to a higher gear to give your cardio system a rest.
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Old 07-18-19, 11:27 AM
  #57  
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Our knees don't last forever. Using gears that are too high will take a toll over the years, even if it doesn't hurt while cycling.

But having said that, I disagree with the people who say you have to spin up hills.
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Old 07-18-19, 11:36 AM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep

You might be able to add a Pandora station with 90 bpm songs and rock out.
I will have to see if there is a way to do that! I loaded a metronome app, but it might put me to sleep if I ride with it. Music would make much more sense. Or I could just spring for a cadence sensor.
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Old 07-18-19, 12:20 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by NomarsGirl
I will have to see if there is a way to do that! I loaded a metronome app, but it might put me to sleep if I ride with it. Music would make much more sense. Or I could just spring for a cadence sensor.
I just tried it, it didn't pull up any at 90. It did have some "workout power music" random stuff at like 120 bpm.

There's a running website that gives the bpm by song, could lookup what you like and make a playlist. I can't find it right now, but it would give results by artist filtered by the BPM.
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Old 07-18-19, 01:17 PM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
Racers generally aren't built like the OP. A lot of this "one true way" mode of thinking comes from trying to emulate the strategies used by freaks of nature (professional racers' spinning abilities are many standard deviations from those of the average person) and people who may have been cheating.

I ride double centuries almost every weekend in the summer. Spinning a low gear is completely inefficient for me. I'm no racer, but I don't get passed a lot, and I fly by plenty of people spinning low gears.
One doesn't need to be a pro racer/freak of nature to find spinning more comfortable, more efficient, and faster. OP mentioned their cadence was in the "low/mid 50s to about 60". Are you "flying by plenty of people spinning low gears" at the OP's cadence?

Originally Posted by me
If mashing was more efficient racers would do it.


Originally Posted by bruce19
Some actually have. I could be wrong about this but I believe LeMond was more a power guy than a spin guy.
I admit I don't watch racers often, but when I do they all look like they're really spinning to me. Probably the ones who favor lower cadence are still at or near at least 80 rpm most of the time. Certainly none are "mashing".

Hey, low cadence is fine if you're soft pedaling it. But if one is concerned at all about performance I think it's difficult to dispute that ramping up the cadence will help.
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Old 07-18-19, 03:20 PM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by AlmostTrick
One doesn't need to be a pro racer/freak of nature to find spinning more comfortable, more efficient, and faster. OP mentioned their cadence was in the "low/mid 50s to about 60". Are you "flying by plenty of people spinning low gears" at the OP's cadence?





I admit I don't watch racers often, but when I do they all look like they're really spinning to me. Probably the ones who favor lower cadence are still at or near at least 80 rpm most of the time. Certainly none are "mashing".

Hey, low cadence is fine if you're soft pedaling it. But if one is concerned at all about performance I think it's difficult to dispute that ramping up the cadence will help.
Yes, I dispute that. I ride many miles on the mid-20s mph in very high gear in the flat. I am most definitely not soft pedaling it and I am flying past people pedaling a lot faster than I am., I assume at some lower gear. If I compare myself to the typical racer what I see is someone who is about my height with legs that have much thinner muscles than I have. They generally weigh somewhat less than I do, but I would describe their legs as being wiry, and mine thickly muscled. I know I don't have a lot of fast twitch musle, I probably have below average jumping ability, which is a pretty good test. What I have a lot of is slow twitch muscle, which gives me a lot of torque and endurance. Frankly, spinning a low gear is not suited to my legs. I just waste energy picking them up more while not realizing their full potential at generating speed by torque.

You're putting words in my mouth as regards op. I didn't say spinning won't work for him, just that there are a lot of variables involved, and he should experiment to see what works rather than accept the pronouncements of other people as to what should of just work. Neither you nor I should be telling this guy how to ride, we don't have a clue.
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Old 07-18-19, 03:46 PM
  #62  
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I built myself a fixed gear bike when I was young, and I made the ratio very low, around 66 inches. I rode it all winter. That taught me how to spin. I went downhill very fast. I think I even hit 180 rpm a few times. The trick is to do it without bouncing your butt on the saddle. Unexpectedly, it also taught me how to climb: since I couldn't shift down, I learned how to climb out of the saddle.

Now I can pedal at any speed. I think I have a natural preferred cadence, though I'm not sure what it is, probably around 80 or 90. I haven't measured it in a long time.

I still ride a fixed gear from time to time. Your body learns from it.
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Old 07-18-19, 03:59 PM
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There is no such thing as natural cadence. That's an idea invented to justify continuing to do what you already do.

When spinning was the fashion everybody spun. Everybody. History of polio and the bones to prove it - they spun. Multiple sclerosis - go ahead and spin. There is no one healthy who cannot spin. Tell yourself constantly some excuse for why you pedal slow and you are going to pedal slow.

Go to the gym and pump iron. If you lift the currently fashionable way it's sets of ten. Maybe less for the final set. On a bike unavoidably it is thousands and thousands of reps. Riding a bike like a weightlifter won't work. And you will never go fast. Current production bikes are already geared up to the sky. Top gear of 50x11 is accepted as normal. If you have no more than 60 rpm that means a top speed under 22mph. If you believe 70 rpm is spinning then you can do top speed of 25mph. Back when spinning was the norm - this is a long time ago - basically everyone who tried doing club rides quickly achieved the ability to complete a warmup at 20mph in a low restricted gear. Any who hung with it for a season were making 25mph and top gear was nothing like 50x11.
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Old 07-18-19, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by 63rickert
There is no such thing as natural cadence. That's an idea invented to justify continuing to do what you already do.

When spinning was the fashion everybody spun. Everybody. History of polio and the bones to prove it - they spun. Multiple sclerosis - go ahead and spin. There is no one healthy who cannot spin. Tell yourself constantly some excuse for why you pedal slow and you are going to pedal slow.

Go to the gym and pump iron. If you lift the currently fashionable way it's sets of ten. Maybe less for the final set. On a bike unavoidably it is thousands and thousands of reps. Riding a bike like a weightlifter won't work. And you will never go fast. Current production bikes are already geared up to the sky. Top gear of 50x11 is accepted as normal. If you have no more than 60 rpm that means a top speed under 22mph. If you believe 70 rpm is spinning then you can do top speed of 25mph. Back when spinning was the norm - this is a long time ago - basically everyone who tried doing club rides quickly achieved the ability to complete a warmup at 20mph in a low restricted gear. Any who hung with it for a season were making 25mph and top gear was nothing like 50x11.
God I love it when people say what I am doing can't be done.
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Old 07-18-19, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by 63rickert
There is no such thing as natural cadence. That's an idea invented to justify continuing to do what you already do.
Adorable.

Would you then be happier perhaps with "self selected cadence?" Prettied up way of saying the same thing.

You're gonna have to define what number qualifies as "spinning," BTW. Then let us know what horrors await if we do not regularly maintain that number.
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Old 07-18-19, 06:43 PM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by AlmostTrick

Hey, low cadence is fine if you're soft pedaling it. But if one is concerned at all about performance I think it's difficult to dispute that ramping up the cadence will help.
I think it's situational. Some people find lower cadence to be more effective when climbing. It has a lot to do with body type. My comments here are meant to apply to recreational cyclists. I don't think it's a one size fits all thing.
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Old 07-18-19, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by bruce19
I think it's situational. Some people find lower cadence to be more effective when climbing. It has a lot to do with body type. My comments here are meant to apply to recreational cyclists. I don't think it's a one size fits all thing.

I find that I vary my cadence on hills based on a lot of factors, including how tired I am, the heat, and winds. If I'm tired or getting overheated, I will spin a hill in a lower gear, but if I'm up for the attack, I am going to mash it.

I ride 140 miles in 90 degree heat last Saturday, and by the end of that I wasn't attacking anything but food.
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Old 07-18-19, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by 63rickert

When spinning was the fashion everybody spun. Everybody. History of polio and the bones to prove it - they spun. Multiple sclerosis - go ahead and spin. There is no one healthy who cannot spin. Tell yourself constantly some excuse for why you pedal slow and you are going to pedal slow.
Setting aside the absurd idea that anyone needs an excuse for their preferred cadence, am I the only one who can't make head or tail out of this paragraph?

What the heck do polio and ms have to do with cadence?
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Old 07-19-19, 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by DrIsotope
Adorable.

Would you then be happier perhaps with "self selected cadence?" Prettied up way of saying the same thing.

You're gonna have to define what number qualifies as "spinning," BTW. Then let us know what horrors await if we do not regularly maintain that number.
There are no horrors. If riding at a low cadence you are riding your bike. Riding your bike is a good thing regardless of the details. Cadence is a detail. Maybe I stepped in where only desired input is an amen chorus.

Cadence is in your mind. Anyone can ride at a high cadence. If they want to. There is just not any physical barrier. Back when 100 rpm was normal anyone with any type of body and reasonable good health could do it and did do it. In a lot of cases riders with plain bad health did it. There were a lot of benefits to that. If you don't see the benefits or just don't care then ride at any cadence you want. When the group mind says high cadence is not possible, or statements are made that racers pedal fast because they are are genetic freaks , someone who has a longer memory might just respond.
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Old 07-19-19, 08:36 AM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by wobrien
Something tells me you were not an offensive lineman in high school... Unfortunately I was not blessed with speed but I am working on it.
I was never athletic when I was younger lol But being a runner for the last six years might explain why the high cadence felt comfortable, I'm used to a fast turnover while running.
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Old 07-19-19, 09:01 AM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
Yes, I dispute that. I ride many miles on the mid-20s mph in very high gear in the flat. I am most definitely not soft pedaling it and I am flying past people pedaling a lot faster than I am., I assume at some lower gear. If I compare myself to the typical racer what I see is someone who is about my height with legs that have much thinner muscles than I have. They generally weigh somewhat less than I do, but I would describe their legs as being wiry, and mine thickly muscled. I know I don't have a lot of fast twitch musle, I probably have below average jumping ability, which is a pretty good test. What I have a lot of is slow twitch muscle, which gives me a lot of torque and endurance. Frankly, spinning a low gear is not suited to my legs. I just waste energy picking them up more while not realizing their full potential at generating speed by torque.
Understood. It seems unusual and odd to me, but low cadence obviously works for you.

Mid 20's is fast. Like advanced group ride while drafting fast. Are you doing this in a group, or solo? What is your gear (inches or teeth) and cadence while flying in the mid 20's?

You're putting words in my mouth as regards op. I didn't say spinning won't work for him, just that there are a lot of variables involved, and he should experiment to see what works rather than accept the pronouncements of other people as to what should of just work. Neither you nor I should be telling this guy how to ride, we don't have a clue.
I re-read my response several times, and don't see where I said anything that could be understood as me posting that you said spinning wouldn't work for the OP.

I agree with the rest of your post. We are all just posting what works for us, and/or our thoughts on the subject at hand. It's been an informative and entertaining thread.
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Old 07-19-19, 10:25 AM
  #72  
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Like others have said, a higher cadence means less stress on my knees and less chance of hitting neuromuscular failure. The flatter it is the higher I can comfortably get my cadence and I'll settle into 95-100 if putting in a hard effort. I did an FTP test of Zwift yesterday and I was at 92 RPM and it felt too slow given the power I was putting out.

The lower my power, the slower I pedal. Zone 2 ride a few days ago was an average of 80. On hills I'll pedal slower than on flats - 85 RPM average up a cat 7 km hill.
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Old 07-19-19, 12:39 PM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by 63rickert
Cadence is in your mind.
I think you don't understand what cadence is. It's the rate the crank arms are rotating. It has nothing to do with the mind, and everything to do with the rate of contraction of the lower body muscles.
Originally Posted by 63rickert
Anyone can ride at a high cadence. If they want to. There is just not any physical barrier.
Sadly, no. Self-selected and maximum cadence are controlled by the ratio of type I to type II muscle fibers and the rate/force of contraction of the fibers for the individual. These are all physical parameters.
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Old 07-19-19, 02:53 PM
  #74  
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@63rickert, perhaps I spoke unclearly. By "natural" I mean the cadence my body tends to take, but that is after years of training. I probably spin faster than most cyclists. But I don't spin as fast as some. Certainly, you can change your habitual cadence.
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Old 07-19-19, 03:30 PM
  #75  
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Originally Posted by asgelle
I think you don't understand what cadence is. It's the rate the crank arms are rotating. It has nothing to do with the mind, and everything to do with the rate of contraction of the lower body muscles.

Sadly, no. Self-selected and maximum cadence are controlled by the ratio of type I to type II muscle fibers and the rate/force of contraction of the fibers for the individual. These are all physical parameters.
Any type of muscle fiber will happily accommodate 200rpm or more. Ratio of fibers has nothing to do with cadence.

Self-selected cadence will begin with what is thought to be possible. That thought is in the riders mind. The range of possible cadence is broad. Saying only racers and freaks can do high cadence is silly.

Last time I did a roller race was about twenty years back. So already in middle age. Roller races are just for fun. The shop had acquired a quartet of large diameter antique English rollers with cable drive to a big clock face. Of the twenty or so who showed up most all were not training at home on rollers and it was just an evening's entertainment. What happened was the finalists were all old. No way old guys should be winning a contest of agility. The old guys won because we knew what fast pedaling was. We beat kids half our age because they had never been given permission to spin the pedals fast. We didn't just beat the youngsters in first round by a small margin, we buried them. Most of the youngsters were actively racing and the old guys were barely racing or had long quit. None of us had been by most measures successful racers. Twenty years later it would be even worse. Given how slow moderns pedal and how total the slow pedaling doctrine has become I suspect the very same old guys, now in their 60s or beyond, would still despatch most any group of youngsters.

You don't know how or if high cadence works if you have never done it.

noglider has it right. Fixed wheel at about 66 inches. My fixed is on 48x19 or 68 inches. In deep winter it becomes 48x20. Last spring was clocked downhill at 36mph on that 19 cog. No reason that should be difficult or unusual.
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