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Is it unfair ?

Old 10-24-19, 03:09 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by OBoile View Post
As for the science itself, until recently, no major studies had been done on the matter, so there was only speculation. Sort of like > 100 years ago when CO2 was proposed as a greenhouse gas but there wasn't massive amounts of data to back it up like there is today. Now we are starting to get some research on the effects of hormone suppression but even those results don't directly deal with performance.

In short, while people can speculate about certain factors which could cause an unfair advantage for trans women, no one really knows how much of a benefit, if any, that they receive overall in a particular sport.
Do we really need a study to prove that men generally have an advantage over women in most sports including cycling?

Dropping out of this thread as I don't like debating politics and this is topic is inevitably going to degenerate.
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Old 10-24-19, 03:42 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by markwesti View Post
I'll go first . If a guy wants to be a women and does all the surgery stuff , I say that's their business . But don't hijack the real women sports . https://www.breitbart.com/sports/201...mens-records/#
just a chick with a dick......
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Old 10-24-19, 04:10 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by Milton Keynes View Post
Was it Steve Austin?
I don't remember the guy's name. I think he was disqualified.
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Old 10-24-19, 04:49 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Arthur Peabody View Post
I don't remember the guy's name. I think he was disqualified.
I think his name was iva biggin
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Old 10-24-19, 05:03 PM
  #30  
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Who are this dude's [McKinnon's] sponsors?

Did an internet search and couldn't find any references...
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Old 10-24-19, 06:20 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by robnol View Post
I think his name was iva biggin
dude that's good

and on a more serious note, completely unfair to compete as a women if not born one
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Old 10-24-19, 06:36 PM
  #32  
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Yes

its unfair
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Old 10-24-19, 07:01 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Hiro11 View Post
Do we really need a study to prove that men generally have an advantage over women in most sports including cycling?
No, but we would certainly need a study, more likely multiple studies, to determine exactly how much of an advantage men have. And, since we're not talking about a man, but instead a trans woman who's taking a bunch of drugs, we'd definitely need studies to determine how much of an advantage, if any, she has.
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Old 10-24-19, 07:17 PM
  #34  
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Men start with an average of 15 percent more size and more muscle per pound than women. That's a bigger heart, lungs, and muscles .... nothing that would be affected by hormone suppression.

There is a reason many sports have a Men's and a Women's division---same reason some don't. In some sports the physical size and strength difference cannot, in general, be trained away.

Look at cycling. it isn't that the women don't train as hard, don't have the same training regimens, don't have the same technology ... yet they are generally slower. Look at tennis. Look at any sport where any physical edge makes a difference. Ask why in fight sports there are so many divisions by weight---because those few pounds's advantage matter.

Anyone who is honest knows this stuff. it has nothing to do with politics, it has nothing to do with gender identification rights. it has everything to do with the idea of athletic competition.
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Old 10-24-19, 08:23 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Flip Flop Rider View Post
dude that's good

and on a more serious note, completely unfair to compete as a women if not born one
after all im a lesbian trapped in a mans body....and a vagitarian
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Old 10-24-19, 08:30 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
Men start with an average of 15 percent more size and more muscle per pound than women. That's a bigger heart, lungs, and muscles .... nothing that would be affected by hormone suppression.

There is a reason many sports have a Men's and a Women's division---same reason some don't. In some sports the physical size and strength difference cannot, in general, be trained away.

Look at cycling. it isn't that the women don't train as hard, don't have the same training regimens, don't have the same technology ... yet they are generally slower. Look at tennis. Look at any sport where any physical edge makes a difference. Ask why in fight sports there are so many divisions by weight---because those few pounds's advantage matter.

Anyone who is honest knows this stuff. it has nothing to do with politics, it has nothing to do with gender identification rights. it has everything to do with the idea of athletic competition.
First, muscle size is largely dependant of hormones and would be affected by hormone suppression, although someone who has built muscle under favourable conditions is still likely at an advantage as retaining muscle is easier than building it. Second, the advantages men have is still largely dependant on the sport chosen. Women have less bone mass and less upper body mass, both useful things when trying to go up a mountain which is why I suspect Dr McKinnon isn't trying to do any road races in the Alps. Third, many sports are difficult to measure. Running is easy, we can see the times put up by elite athletes but how do you quantify tennis ability? When McEnroe said that Serena was maybe the 300th best player in the world, no one could definitively say if he was right or not.

But, none of that really is relevant because we're not comparing men with women. We're comparing trans women with women. It's not as simple as that. Only the most extreme people, like Dr McKinnon, believe that trans women should be allowed to compete against cisgendered women without restriction. The effects of the various hormones and hormone suppressors they take isn't well known. The effects of their hormone levels being different than than what their body is used to is not well known. The effect of using synthetic hormones instead of your body's natural hormones isn't well known. Do they still have an advantage? Probably for most sports. That advantage is almost certainly significantly smaller than the advantage men have. How much of an advantage? It's difficult to say but I suspect this race wasn't particularly fair. IIRC, the age range for this category was 35-44. Was her edge greater than the advantage a 35 year old has over a 44 year old? Maybe. The fact is, even with a 5% advantage, she'd have to be very, very good in order to win. It's not like she's just some no talent hack who decided to ride bikes a couple of weeks ago.

People that have actually investigated this (unlike any of us) came up with guidelines they felt were fair. As more information has become known, those guidelines have been revised (and are currently in the process of being revised again to be more strict). As our knowledge grows, they likely will be revised several more times. But as of now, no one really knows what is or isn't fair. The fact is, at this point, trans women wining sporting competitions is virtually unheard of. The idea that women's sport is at risk, or being significantly damaged, is simply not true at this time.
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Old 10-24-19, 09:18 PM
  #37  
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Actually it would be easy to see what difference the gender made---head-to-head competition. But there i sno point. Measure the speeds, measure the shot speed, etc.

The fastest women marathoners is about 20 minutes behind the fastest male. I guess it would depend when hirmone suppression star6ted, but the males tend to be more muscular regardless .... read some anatomy.

And as far as not a lot of trans women winning ... check the news. It has already become controversial at the college level exactly because people who spent most of their lives growing as men and then got their penises amputated are still basically men,. Research can be done. You can do it.
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Old 10-25-19, 01:07 AM
  #38  
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I've known a few trans non-binary gender folks, including a longtime friend of the family. I don't recall the issue of fairness in sports competitions ever coming up, but back then when they were undergoing the process their main objective to was be as happy as possible in their lives.

From a regulatory perspective it's not always easy to identify a prospective competitor or participant by biological identity. Some folks would nowadays be generally classified as intersex. A friend years ago identified himself as hermaphrodite and biologically male, but had many female biological characteristics. He wouldn't have been athletic enough for his nominally male biologically identity to make him competitive against fit and skilled women his age and size. Being biologically male doesn't always confer physical advantages.

I've known a few other folks like that so it must be more common than many of us realize -- or maybe the stereotype is true that there are more non-binary folks in the arts. That's where I've met most non-binary folks.

CliffordK's proposal may be the least bad of a set of difficult choices for classifying athletes as fairly as possible: one class for those who identify biologically as women and meet some testable standards set by whichever organization is brave and foolish enough to try; and an open class for anyone and everyone who chooses to participate without regard to physical factors -- other than weight classes for martial arts/combat sports.

They could also consider physical performance testing as part of a seeding process, so that competitors will be matched against comparable participants regardless of gender. Again, there's already a somewhat comparable precedent in high school and college sports divisions. Some family and friends are big fans of their Texas high school football teams, but they're realistic enough to know their favorite 2A, 3A and 4A teams won't be turning out many, if any, pros or elite level college players.

While such an arrangement may be interpreted as offensive and condescending to some, that's the nature of physical competition. It's long been accepted in martial arts. It hasn't affected fans who enjoy good competitions regardless of size, strength or even skill. A notable example was the Micky Ward vs Arturo Gatti trilogy. Neither would ever be in any credible top ten list but they were sufficiently skilled and competitive enough to make for three exciting and popular bouts.

And there are competitions in which McKinnon would have little or no advantage, and possibly be disadvantaged by size: for example, a climbing stage against someone like Emma Pooley.
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Old 10-25-19, 08:24 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
Actually it would be easy to see what difference the gender made---head-to-head competition. But there i sno point. Measure the speeds, measure the shot speed, etc.

The fastest women marathoners is about 20 minutes behind the fastest male. I guess it would depend when hirmone suppression star6ted, but the males tend to be more muscular regardless .... read some anatomy.

And as far as not a lot of trans women winning ... check the news. It has already become controversial at the college level exactly because people who spent most of their lives growing as men and then got their penises amputated are still basically men,. Research can be done. You can do it.
This is a joke post right?
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Old 10-25-19, 08:33 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
I've known a few trans non-binary gender folks, including a longtime friend of the family. I don't recall the issue of fairness in sports competitions ever coming up, but back then when they were undergoing the process their main objective to was be as happy as possible in their lives.

From a regulatory perspective it's not always easy to identify a prospective competitor or participant by biological identity. Some folks would nowadays be generally classified as intersex. A friend years ago identified himself as hermaphrodite and biologically male, but had many female biological characteristics. He wouldn't have been athletic enough for his nominally male biologically identity to make him competitive against fit and skilled women his age and size. Being biologically male doesn't always confer physical advantages.

I've known a few other folks like that so it must be more common than many of us realize -- or maybe the stereotype is true that there are more non-binary folks in the arts. That's where I've met most non-binary folks.

CliffordK's proposal may be the least bad of a set of difficult choices for classifying athletes as fairly as possible: one class for those who identify biologically as women and meet some testable standards set by whichever organization is brave and foolish enough to try; and an open class for anyone and everyone who chooses to participate without regard to physical factors -- other than weight classes for martial arts/combat sports.

They could also consider physical performance testing as part of a seeding process, so that competitors will be matched against comparable participants regardless of gender. Again, there's already a somewhat comparable precedent in high school and college sports divisions. Some family and friends are big fans of their Texas high school football teams, but they're realistic enough to know their favorite 2A, 3A and 4A teams won't be turning out many, if any, pros or elite level college players.

While such an arrangement may be interpreted as offensive and condescending to some, that's the nature of physical competition. It's long been accepted in martial arts. It hasn't affected fans who enjoy good competitions regardless of size, strength or even skill. A notable example was the Micky Ward vs Arturo Gatti trilogy. Neither would ever be in any credible top ten list but they were sufficiently skilled and competitive enough to make for three exciting and popular bouts.

And there are competitions in which McKinnon would have little or no advantage, and possibly be disadvantaged by size: for example, a climbing stage against someone like Emma Pooley.
This would, IMO, be the most reasonable choice. But, I doubt it would ever be accepted for political/appearance reasons as it would give the impression of the "women's only" division as being 2nd tier status. Currently, at least on paper if not in reality, we can say there are two equivalent divisions, men's and women's. You'd also get people like McKinnon, but less extreme/unreasonable saying "I'm a woman, why can't I compete as a woman?".

Ultimately, sport is split into two divisions based on gender, but as you say, we're learning that gender is far more complicated than that. Finding a solution that is perfect wrt fair play, logistical considerations and human rights may well prove impossible.
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Old 10-25-19, 12:30 PM
  #41  
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Simple solution...if you are born with "outie" parts, you ride with other humans who all have "outie" parts. If you are born with an "innie" then you ride with the matching humans there or can even have the choice of bumping up to the M group of you like. If, as a trans M or trans F, anywhere in between / on the spectrum you identify... You make the choice to take any hormone or chemical, you automatically compete in M.
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Old 10-25-19, 05:56 PM
  #42  
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maybe races should just be coed, then it wouldn't matter
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Old 10-26-19, 07:43 AM
  #43  
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https://babylonbee.com/news/motorcyc...wtQsgKShJJlBB4
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Old 10-26-19, 08:10 AM
  #44  
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Old 10-26-19, 01:10 PM
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I was waiting for someone to post the satire from the Babylon Bee. Also excellent,

Man Identifying as 6-Year-Old Crushes Game-Winning Homer in Tee-Ball Championship

AUBURN, CA—Local 36-year-old man Nate Ripley, who identifies as a six-year-old, “absolutely crushed” a game-winning homer at a local tee-ball game and
won the championship for his team Monday evening, reports confirmed.

Ripley reportedly walked up to the plate in the bottom of the 6th, pointed his bat toward the left-field wall looming 130 feet in the distance, and let her rip,
sending the ball rocketing over the fence and into a parking lot as the fans cheered and his coach yelled out, “Attaboy, Nate! Good job, bud!”

His team, the Lil’ Padres, attempted to hoist him up on their shoulders in celebration of their great victory over the favored Tiny Tigers, but were unable
to pick up the large 230-pound man.

Ripley’s feat comes at the end of a momentous tee-ball season, in which the self-identified six-year-old absolutely shattered every record set prior to that point.
With a 1.000 batting average, 52 home runs, and an incredible showing at first base, second base, shortstop, third base, and pitcher, the man is being called an inspiration to other six-year-olds everywhere.

“I’m just proud to be here with my team. It’s all for the love of the game,” an emotional Ripley told reporters while enjoying an orange slice and juice box after
the championship. “I couldn’t have done it without my team.”
__________________
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Old 10-26-19, 01:21 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by OBoile View Post
Third, many sports are difficult to measure. Running is easy, we can see the times put up by elite athletes but how do you quantify tennis ability? When McEnroe said that Serena was maybe the 300th best player in the world, no one could definitively say if he was right or not.....


The idea that women's sport is at risk, or being significantly damaged, is simply not true at this time.

Johnny Mac knows tennis. He also knows woman's tennis, as he has a Grand Slam mixed doubles trophy in his case.


McEnroe was being interviewed by a (stupid) BBC reporter, and had indicated that in his opinion, Serena was greatest female tennis player of all time. The reporter then asked: "why not the greatest tennis player of all time?". As much as Mac knows the game of tennis, he gives his opinions honestly.


Mac immediately clarified that if Serena was playing in the mans game, she would be ranked about 700th in the world. I know tennis, and I think he was being a bit charitable. The last time Serena (boastfully and foolishly) took on a male professional (ranked #206 , and dropping fast), she lost the set with a breadstick. Venus did somewhat better in salvaging 2 games.


So here is the fairness problem... that in tennis, the big tournament prize money is divided equally between the men and woman's draws. Complete parity; I don't know any other sport that does this. So each singles champion at Wimbledon for example, receives about $3 million.


Realityville: suppose we were to take 128 boys entered in the Wimbledon junior draw, and add them to the 128 woman in the singles woman's draw; in the first round, pair up a boy against a woman pro. Then let the tournament run in the standard dual-elimination format. The results would be that there would be no woman left by the third round of the tournament. In fact, it would be unlikely that there would be any woman left after the first round, but there could be some attrition among the boys due to injuries or the few 16 year-old boys whose heads explode due to the stress of being on center-court Wimbledon in front of 10,000 spectators. But in the end, the boys would completely dominate and win all of the big prize money.


Same result if you were to do the same thing with the men's seniors (over 35) draw. The women pros would be decimated.


If this was done every tournament, woman's participation in the pro ranks would be eliminated within a year, as women would not be pick up ATP ranking points, or qualify for big tournaments, or win prize money. The woman's pro game would simply cease to exist.
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Old 10-26-19, 02:10 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer View Post
Johnny Mac knows tennis. He also knows woman's tennis, as he has a Grand Slam mixed doubles trophy in his case.


McEnroe was being interviewed by a (stupid) BBC reporter, and had indicated that in his opinion, Serena was greatest female tennis player of all time. The reporter then asked: "why not the greatest tennis player of all time?". As much as Mac knows the game of tennis, he gives his opinions honestly.


Mac immediately clarified that if Serena was playing in the mans game, she would be ranked about 700th in the world. I know tennis, and I think he was being a bit charitable. The last time Serena (boastfully and foolishly) took on a male professional (ranked #206 , and dropping fast), she lost the set with a breadstick. Venus did somewhat better in salvaging 2 games.


So here is the fairness problem... that in tennis, the big tournament prize money is divided equally between the men and woman's draws. Complete parity; I don't know any other sport that does this. So each singles champion at Wimbledon for example, receives about $3 million.


Realityville: suppose we were to take 128 boys entered in the Wimbledon junior draw, and add them to the 128 woman in the singles woman's draw; in the first round, pair up a boy against a woman pro. Then let the tournament run in the standard dual-elimination format. The results would be that there would be no woman left by the third round of the tournament. In fact, it would be unlikely that there would be any woman left after the first round, but there could be some attrition among the boys due to injuries or the few 16 year-old boys whose heads explode due to the stress of being on center-court Wimbledon in front of 10,000 spectators. But in the end, the boys would completely dominate and win all of the big prize money.


Same result if you were to do the same thing with the men's seniors (over 35) draw. The women pros would be decimated.


If this was done every tournament, woman's participation in the pro ranks would be eliminated within a year, as women would not be pick up ATP ranking points, or qualify for big tournaments, or win prize money. The woman's pro game would simply cease to exist.
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here or how this is relevant to this discussion, but okay I guess.
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Old 10-26-19, 02:35 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by OBoile View Post
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here or how this is relevant to this discussion, but okay I guess.
I understood the point of it.


Originally Posted by markwesti View Post
I'll go first . If a guy wants to be a women and does all the surgery stuff , I say that's their business . But don't hijack the real women sports . https://www.breitbart.com/sports/201...mens-records/#
I'm a live and let live kinda guy but transgender female cyclists should not be allowed to compete. I mean what the hell is that supposed to prove?






My favorite, Inga Thompson, had enough problems with a hematocrit count of 47

https://www.theouterline.com/perspec...ga-thompson-5/

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Old 10-26-19, 02:48 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by Zinger View Post
I understood the point of it.

Then, by all means enlighten me.
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Old 10-26-19, 03:29 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by OBoile View Post
Then, by all means enlighten me.
It'll become a transgender dominated competition not a woman's.

Create a whole new transgender division if transgender athletes are allowed to compete.
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