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Do patched up inner tubes slow you down?

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Do patched up inner tubes slow you down?

Old 03-23-20, 10:47 AM
  #26  
eduskator
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Originally Posted by woodcraft View Post
Seems like only yesterday that "Could I go faster with bigger tires?" was considered a stupid question...
This still has more merit than the patch my tube thing. lol
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Old 03-23-20, 11:40 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by eduskator View Post
They say there's no such thing as a stupid question, but what a stupid question...
If you're not a racer, there's no reason to care, but if you're racing every single watt and every single fraction of a second matter.

FWIW, I don't play baseball, so I don't understand all the fuss about the designated hitter, but I don't find it necessary to go to baseball forums and tell them how stupid the issue is.
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Old 03-23-20, 11:46 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by RChung View Post
I've been wondering this for a while. I asked Josh Poertner on his Marginal Gains podcast about it: he thought it would but he hadn't tested it either. OTOH, Tom Anhalt thinks it won't. If you know these two guys you'll recognize that they rarely disagree, so I'll take it that the question is currently unresolved. I'll probably test it at some point but I haven't yet had a chance.
That was a great podcast. Thanks for posting to the forum. We need more data obsessed riders.
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Old 03-23-20, 01:43 PM
  #29  
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About 3w a pair for going latex over butyl. Not ground breaking outside of Ironman or long TT.

I'd assume patches would be even less by far since the patch is only compressed or dealt with for a tiny fraction of each rotation of the wheel whereas a tube is all the way around.

So, super negligible.
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Old 03-23-20, 04:42 PM
  #30  
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Not a great idea to descend Mont Ventoux with patched tubes, might fail if you didn't do a good enough job. On the other hand, I play the "how many patches can I get on a single tube" game.
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Old 03-24-20, 02:13 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Ghazmh View Post
Won’t the wheel be out of balance?
Seriously doubt it. Most rims and tires aren't perfectly balanced to begin with
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Old 03-24-20, 02:20 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
I don’t see how adding a patch can not increase rolling resistance. After all, we know thicker butyl tubes result in higher RR than thinner ones. What is a patch other than a localized thickening of the tube? Now what the magnitude of that increase is and how difficult it would be to detect is another matter; but I don’t see how there could be any doubt about the direction of the change.

But giving Tom and Josh their due respect, I would be hesitant to rely solely on what is essentially a hand waving argument by analogy.
If that was the case... then what patch has the least "resistance"? My money is on those clear medtape looking ones. That said; the tubes with slime or whatever, would probably be higher than any patch.
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Old 03-24-20, 06:38 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by bbbean View Post
If you're not a racer, there's no reason to care, but if you're racing every single watt and every single fraction of a second matter.

FWIW, I don't play baseball, so I don't understand all the fuss about the designated hitter, but I don't find it necessary to go to baseball forums and tell them how stupid the issue is.


You should ride naked while you're at it. You'll save a few lbs. Why don't you use worn brake pads that'll only last the race, you'll save a few grams there as well.

OP is not a racer, he's a guy who wants to save 2$.

Last edited by eduskator; 03-24-20 at 06:44 AM.
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Old 03-24-20, 09:01 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by eduskator View Post
You should ride naked while you're at it. You'll save a few lbs. Why don't you use worn brake pads that'll only last the race, you'll save a few grams there as well.

OP is not a racer, he's a guy who wants to save 2$.
The original post: "So i wanted to save some money and just repair inner tubes with a patch kit. I was wondering if this would increase my rolling resistance?"

I have no idea if he's a racer or not, but the question was "I was wondering if this would increase my rolling resistance?". It's an interesting question. People do a lot of things to go faster, and they add up. The concept of marginal gains has been around for a while and for a reason.

You have a great day.
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Old 03-24-20, 09:50 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by eduskator View Post
You should ride naked while you're at it. You'll save a few lbs.
Bare skin is slower than well-fitting clothing. That's been tested and measured.
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Old 03-24-20, 10:29 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by bbbean View Post
The original post: "So i wanted to save some money and just repair inner tubes with a patch kit. I was wondering if this would increase my rolling resistance?"

I have no idea if he's a racer or not, but the question was "I was wondering if this would increase my rolling resistance?". It's an interesting question. People do a lot of things to go faster, and they add up. The concept of marginal gains has been around for a while and for a reason.
No, all things don't always "add up". There is also not much reason to worry about tiny things if larger contributors are not being done.

There isn't any clear reason to expect that there would be any marginal gain at all related to having patches tubes.

It doesn't seem worth discussing the effect of patches without knowing what tires he's using.
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Old 03-24-20, 10:42 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
No, all things don't always "add up". There is also not much reason to worry about tiny things if larger contributors are not being done.

There isn't any clear reason to expect that there would be any marginal gain at all related to having patches tubes.

It doesn't seem worth discussing the effect of patches without knowing what tires he's using.
I'll respectfully encourage you to dig a little deeper into the notion of marginal gains. If the type of glue used on a tubular tire can have a measurable impact on rolling resistance, it is entirely conceivable that a patch could impact rolling resistance. While there may well be an interactive effect with tire design, one would first need to determine the effect of a patch with all other variables held constant.

As to whether is it worth discussing, I can only note that you apparently decided it was worth discussing and opted to post an opinion.

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Old 03-24-20, 10:52 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by bbbean View Post
The original post: "So i wanted to save some money and just repair inner tubes with a patch kit. I was wondering if this would increase my rolling resistance?"

I have no idea if he's a racer or not, but the question was "I was wondering if this would increase my rolling resistance?". It's an interesting question. People do a lot of things to go faster, and they add up. The concept of marginal gains has been around for a while and for a reason.

You have a great day.
I am a racer
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Old 03-24-20, 10:52 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
No, all things don't always "add up". There is also not much reason to worry about tiny things if larger contributors are not being done.

There isn't any clear reason to expect that there would be any marginal gain at all related to having patches tubes.

It doesn't seem worth discussing the effect of patches without knowing what tires he's using.
I use GP 5000 28mm
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Old 03-24-20, 11:09 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
No, all things don't always "add up". There is also not much reason to worry about tiny things if larger contributors are not being done.

There isn't any clear reason to expect that there would be any marginal gain at all related to having patches tubes.

It doesn't seem worth discussing the effect of patches without knowing what tires he's using.


Technically, it may be Spring, but functionally it is Winter,

so we need marginal topics to consider.

Continuing to be house-bound, there may be ample time for discussions of

wheel balancing, tire sprue clipping, and aero cable housings.
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Old 03-24-20, 11:23 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by bbbean View Post
If the type of glue used on a tubular tire can have a measurable impact on rolling resistance, it is entirely conceivable that a patch could impact rolling resistance.
The mass of the glue is likely at 100 fold more than the mass of a patch. So, no, that doesn't make it necessarily conceivable that a patch would matter at all.

Originally Posted by bbbean View Post
As to whether is it worth discussing, I can only note that you apparently decided it was worth discussing and opted to post an opinion.
I was really discussing your notion that every "marginal gain" was worth it (which is certainly false). But it's not surprising that point went right by you.

Last edited by njkayaker; 03-24-20 at 11:37 AM.
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Old 03-24-20, 11:39 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
The mass of the glue is likely at 100 fold more than the mass of a patch. So, that doesn't make it necessarily conceivable that a patch would matter at all.
Mass isn't the relevant characteristic. Given that some of the better minds in cycling and engineering have acknowledged the possibility of a patch having a measurable effect (see R Chung's post above), it is clearly conceivable. The questions of exactly how much it matters remains to be answered, but it isn't an inconceivable issue.

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Old 03-24-20, 11:44 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by DeathCurse7 View Post
I use GP 5000 28mm
I think the Continentals have reasonable rolling resistance but there might be tires with significantly lower rolling resistance.

Is there any rolling resistance difference between 25mm and 28mm tires?

I suspect if there's any effect of a patch or two, it's very tiny (I would think it's much less than the difference between the rolling resistance between models of tire).

Do you have a wheelset that you only use for racing? If so, use the patched tubes for training.

If you think the patch might keep you from winning third or better, you should definitely use unpatched tubes!
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Old 03-24-20, 11:52 AM
  #44  
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What if an array of patches, like dimples on a golf ball,

was actually faster?
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Old 03-24-20, 11:55 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by bbbean View Post
Mass isn't the relevant characteristic.
Glue around the whole circumference of the wheel is not really anything like one patch. So, using glue as a justification for worrying about a patch doesn't make much sense.

Originally Posted by bbbean View Post
Given that some of the better minds in cycling and engineering have acknowledged the possibility of a patch having a measurable effect (see R Chung's post above), it is clearly conceivable. The questions of exactly how much it matters remains to be answered, but it isn't an inconceivable issue.
A "possibility" is really weak. "Everything is possible", so saying it's "possible" is rather useless.

In any case, the interest doesn't seem to be whether it is "conceivable".

It would seem the real interest is "whether it has a real/practical effect".

"The questions of exactly how much <whether> it matters" is really what people should be trying to answer.

It seems very likely that it wouldn't really matter at all.

Last edited by njkayaker; 03-24-20 at 12:06 PM.
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Old 03-24-20, 01:16 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by bbbean View Post
If the type of glue used on a tubular tire can have a measurable impact on rolling resistance,...
https://analyticcycling.com/ForcesTires_Page.html

From this, road glue (flexible) shows a significant increase in rolling resistance over track glue (stiff) and clinchers.

There is little difference between the rolling resistance of track glue and clinchers.

(There's nothing in this that would seem to be applicable to the effect of a single tiny patch.)
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Old 03-24-20, 01:22 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by ChrisAlbertson View Post
This is what I call the "standing on a sheet of paper argument". In theory if you are taller you can see farther. So does standing on a sheet of paper enable you to see farther?

There are many things like this that in theory should matter but the effect is so small as to be impossible to measure.
I like to refer to things like that with ”Something being true doesn’t guarantee that it’s important”.
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Old 03-24-20, 01:27 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by RChung View Post
Bare skin is slower than well-fitting clothing. That's been tested and measured.
I was hoping you'd come in to post that.
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Old 03-24-20, 02:07 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by woodcraft View Post
Huh.

So if the patch is about .75" it would be about 1/112 of the wheel circumference and about 1/4 of the tube circumference.

The thickness of a patch is similar to the difference in thickness between a standard tube, and a lighter tube.

The difference in rolling resistance between those tubes is about 1 watt for pair of tires at 45kph,

so a patch could theoretically require about .0022 watts at 45kph.

https://www.aero-coach.co.uk/inner-t...ing-resistance


Then, if I have the math right, they suggest a 4 second difference in a 40k TT for 1 watt of RR,

so a tube patch could cost you .0088 of a second over a 40k time trial at 45kph.
Presumably, the increase in rolling resistance is because thicker tubes are stiffer overall.

The effect of the very small area of the patch is probably lower than the simple linear scaling you are using. So, your estimate might be a large exaggeration.

If his tires don't have low rolling resistance, it's odd to worry about the tiny effect the patch is likely to have.

In any case, it doesn't seem the OP should be spending any time worrying about 0.0088 of a second.
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Old 03-24-20, 02:16 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by indyfabz View Post
Nothing slows me down except myself.
And, I can do a pretty good job of it sometimes.
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