caloso

I have this idea for a twilight race downtown that would go around a single block (just about 500m, according to gmap-pedometer). Because it's so short, I was thinking that rather than a regular crit, it would be fun to do track races like miss-and-outs.

Has anyone ever heard of such a thing?

pjcampbell

I have done this sort of race. It's brutal but its fun. Swiss American in Phoenix does it every year. it is winner takes all (cash). they do like 10 qualifying rounds over the course of 2 days and a final (you have to do maybe 3 qualifying rounds and not get "out" to get to the finals, I think). miss and out style. They also throw in regular sanctioned crits in between the qualifying rounds.

caloso

Do the early laps go really slow? I'm trying to imagine how the tactics play out.

carpediemracing 

Anything can happen.

If there's a good sprinter, he may jump every lap to get 2nd last or something. Therefore non-sprinters will try going long.

If there are a few good riders, they can really drill it, separate from the others, TTT together until they're the selection, then fight it out amongst themselves. I've seen this happen the most - reducing the odds.

Or you get solo moves. In my last Miss N Out, the race was going to race through the final selection, i.e. last 3 riders selected, 2 laps of racing, and sprint for first-third places. I always got eliminated early in Miss N Outs so I attacked with about 4-5 selections to go (i.e. left in race = 4-5 laps of selections, 2 laps of racing, and sprint).

I was off the front until 1 lap to go, and when the first guy caught me, I sat up. I got caught by 2nd guy at 1/2 lap to go. I'm no TT type rider and I think my little attack caught folks off guard.

cdr

caloso

Cool. That's exactly the kind of mix-it-up racing I was thinking of. How long were the courses you did, CDR?

carpediemracing 

Mine was on track (318 meters), but I've done points crits on 0.8 - 1 mile courses.

I've never done a Miss N Out crit - too hard. I skipped them all, but that was before I ever raced on track.

Usually track type events on crit courses are very hard. They favor strong riders, meaning really fit riders. When a local training series went to a points format it basically folded - it was just too hard to race, even just to finish.

cdr

brianappleby

God I hate it when the fit riders have an unfair advantage.

Enthalpic

One of our local crits is run as a points race, it's pretty fun and keeps the race entertaining. They give out points every 4 laps and double points on the last lap, you can also win by lapping the field.

carpediemracing 

Heh. As a relatively unfit rider, and not really capable even when I'm fit, it's difficult for me to even stay with the field when fitness becomes most important (like climbs or long sections of severe crosswinds).

One of the appealing things with cycling is that you can make up for lack of physiological ability by being/riding smarter than others. I can't time trial, run, swim, climb, at least not competitively. But I can race bikes in a flatter-type crit successfully, hence the appeal. Of course, I finish maybe 1/2 to 1/4 the races, but when I finish, I have a chance at doing okay. Some weeks I'm the hammer, other weeks I'm the nail.

When a race starts to overwhelmingly favor more fit racers (road races with big climbs, or, in this case, crits with multiple sprints and such), the race becomes less tactical and more physical. It becomes more like a running race except your personal time means diddly. At that point it loses appeal to me since I'm simply not that fit.

cdr

queerpunk

for the past two years there's been a track-bike 'crit' on the cobbled streets of red hook in brooklyn, ny. google "red hook crit" for some more info. if you're doing this in an under-the-radar sort of way, you'll want to make sure that youv'e got your bases covered - 'marshalls' et cetera, to assure any POs that might raise eyebrows that everything is just fine and safe and you're not bothering anybody.

caloso

Interesting! No, but we'll want to do it on the up-and-up. I'm conceiving of an event with our team's sponsor (pizza and espresso caffe) on the course and doing it on a Second Saturday (downtown art and music event). I do envision having a fixed gear heat, as well as a kids and cruiser/altbike race.

kudude

^^ what day of the week were you thinking? I might be persuaded to drive up to sacramento to fill out the numbers in the pack

EventServices

The Michelob Night Rider series. circa 1990

It was a two lap Keirin on a crit course.

They had a car (with a wind screen on the trunk) pulling the first lap. The second lap was un-aided. Held at night.

Great fun.

caloso

Saturday night.

crbrown

In collegiate racing we had an experimental event called Street Sprints, wherein two racers would face-off on a short, straight stretch of road. Racers were matched against each other based on rankings in the collegiate results, and the sprint matches proceeded up towards finals on a bracket system.

Matching the racing pairs and having them line up in order really smoothed things along, as did the rapid release of racing pairs (one group started just as the other was about to finish). All categories together took less than two hours to complete, and course setup was minimal. It was spectator-friendly, as well.

andre nickatina

Holy ****, this sounds absolutely insane.

carpediemracing 

Connecticut had "Downtown Sprints" for a couple years. One year the first race I did I lined up against Jason Snow (!!). He won, among other things, the $50k one mile "shoot out" P-1-2-3 race against the likes of Marty Nothstein etc. He's also won Somerville, even a "stage" in Tour de Michigan. I got eliminated, and Jason went easy on me to make it look good. He's freakin strong.

I also did badly every other year I did it (2 more years). One year I dropped my chain in the big-second-biggest (53x21) when I jumped (standing start), tried once going in the small ring (42x11 = 53x15, and with only 150 meters, I figured I'd be faster just shifting through the small ring gears), etc. I forgot to just sprint my brains out. I was fastest in warmup (and the cop and photographer there said they both thought I'd win), got second last in real. I still got $100 or something. A Cat 1 won - he was sprinting faster every time, everyone else seemed to be struggling by the 5th-6th sprint.

I like the concept but it's not that much fun for the racers. A lot of waiting around. It's like track racing, yeah, but it's not as much fun when people don't do laps right in front of you (like in the track).

However, because of the various street sprints, I started doing sprints on city streets. And I really, really like doing them.

cdr

forrest_m

They did a "street sprint" race here last summer, combined with a big bike festival/demo and outdoor-bike-cinema (that day's TDF stage 16). The format for the race was a two-up side-by-side sprint, 100-ish yard straightaway, turn around a cone and back to the start finish. Each winner moves up through a bracket system, by category, so as you moved up, the time between races decreased. To win your cat involved winning 5-8 sprints over the course of ~half an hour.

It was very popular with the spectators, more of a novelty for the racers, most of whom didn't take it that seriously.

caloso

I'm actually leaning towards more novelty. We've got a ton of crits during the summer around here, but I'm trying to think of ways to have a race that would attract spectators and racers who wouldn't normally race.

roy5000x2

What if you did an elimination crit? After the 5th lap or so, the last (x number) rider(s) to cross the line is/are eliminated until one remains. That could get tricky, depending on how close the last riders are. I think it'd be great fun though.

EventServices

It's called a Miss-and-Out. Every other lap, they pull the last place rider.

There's also another version called a Bavarian in which the first sprint is for 20th place, and the last sprint is for 1st.

queerpunk

yeah, a miss-and-out would be a great way to do that. a variety of pursuits might be cool, too - thinking in particular of team pursuits, or, if you're feeling up for it, an Australian pursuit, where racers are started even distances apart from around the entire course, and if you're caught and overtaken by somebody behind you, you're eliminated.

Ston_ar

I would totally show up for a mis-and out type crit. I can see it just zipping around a city block +/- .4 miles per lap, 10-15 people per heat, prelims and finals for the bigger fields.

pelikan

I would totally drive up to Sac for a Points Crit....a Miss n Out though, not unless I can upgrade out of the E4. From my experience with MnOs at the track, it can be sketchy when people in the back try and jam it into spaces that don't exist to not get called 'out'. Essentially you have the weakest and most tired going for it every lap. At the track, the sketchiness definitely went down as I got further up ranks.

Last year & year before there were Brisbane Track Fights, which were just Points races around the Brisbane crit course. A & B fields, I'd guess < 20 in each one. Great fun! Hope they do them again this year.

caloso

Are points races difficult to judge?