Downhill technique: Flairing one's knee
#76
Senior Member
I don't agree. When riding a bicycle we're basically "falling" constantly on one side or the other. What we do to avoid hitting the ground is using the handlebar to constantly put the bicycle under us. For example: if you fall to the left, you turn left to put the bike again under you. You have to mantain this equilibrium to avoid falling off the bike. This is why it's so difficult to do a track stand (because you can't constantly steer the bike under your). This means that it's impossible to ride a bicycle in a real straight line (it can be really narrow, but not fully straight).
When you enter a right turn you first countersteer to move the bike that sits under you to the left (which means you start falling to the right, since you moved the bike left, but your body kept going straight because of inertia). As you start the turn, your mass will pull you outwards, so what you do to avoid kissing the ground is use the handlebars to keep the bike in a delicate equilibrium that equals the centrifugal force that's pulling you outwards while you turn, with the gravity that's pulling you to the ground. As you exit the turn, you just steer harder to the right until the bike is under you again.
This means that it's impossible to counter steer the whole turn unless your rear tire is partially skidding. In a tight turn, you probably countersteer only to enter the turn, while on a wide one it's possible to countersteer partially through it, but not during the whole turn.
When you enter a right turn you first countersteer to move the bike that sits under you to the left (which means you start falling to the right, since you moved the bike left, but your body kept going straight because of inertia). As you start the turn, your mass will pull you outwards, so what you do to avoid kissing the ground is use the handlebars to keep the bike in a delicate equilibrium that equals the centrifugal force that's pulling you outwards while you turn, with the gravity that's pulling you to the ground. As you exit the turn, you just steer harder to the right until the bike is under you again.
This means that it's impossible to counter steer the whole turn unless your rear tire is partially skidding. In a tight turn, you probably countersteer only to enter the turn, while on a wide one it's possible to countersteer partially through it, but not during the whole turn.
Likes For DaveSSS:
#77
Senior Member
Herein lies the answer: Gyroscopic Precession Steering.
Who can explain it though?
Who can explain it though?
Likes For ckindt:
#78
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,997
Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3978 Post(s)
Liked 7,425 Times
in
2,986 Posts
#79
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Bristol, R. I.
Posts: 4,340
Bikes: Specialized Secteur, old Peugeot
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 663 Post(s)
Liked 496 Times
in
299 Posts
I was out practicing flaring a knee but forgot which side was supposed to flare. So I alternated.
Likes For berner:
#81
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 23,208
Mentioned: 89 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18883 Post(s)
Liked 10,646 Times
in
6,054 Posts
Has anyone said stem Christie yet?
#82
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 4,076
Bikes: Velo Orange Piolet
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2228 Post(s)
Liked 2,011 Times
in
972 Posts
This - if you look at racing motorcyclists cornering hard, they don't just drop their inside knee, they shift their whole body over, so their ass is hanging off the seat on the inside. By shifting their center of gravity to the inside, that can keep the bike as upright as possible and maintain maximum grip in the corner. Cyclists can't do that - if the outside pedal is down and their outside leg is at close to full stretch, they couldn't shift off the saddle even if they wanted to, but their inside knee drops and I imagine they shift as much body weight to the inside as possible to achieve the same thing - move the COG of the rider/bike combination to the inside, so that the bike can be held as upright as possible to maximize grip.
#83
Sophomore Member
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 2,530
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1628 Post(s)
Liked 1,059 Times
in
633 Posts
By shifting their center of gravity to the inside, that can keep the bike as upright as possible and maintain maximum grip in the corner.
But where traction is good, I agree that leaning increases the contact patch, and will get you around a corner fastest and safest.
#84
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 599
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 390 Post(s)
Liked 255 Times
in
165 Posts
Some motorcycle tires used to have a triangular cross section, I don't know of any now. All the bicycle tires I've ever used had a circular cross section. I'm not sure how you think a tire leaned over has a larger contact patch?
#85
Senior Member
My commute to work includes a winding mountain descent, BTW.
#86
Senior Member
#87
Senior Member
At least the posted video finally mentions the fact that the higher the speed, the more continuous countersteering must've applied and the harder it becomes to maintain the turn. Although it may appear like the countersteering isn't continuous, anyone who has ridden a motorcycle over many winding turns knows that the countersteering must be continuous, or the bike will straighten up and quit turning. It's very tiring.
#88
Senior Member
At least the posted video finally mentions the fact that the higher the speed, the more continuous countersteering must've applied and the harder it becomes to maintain the turn. Although it may appear like the countersteering isn't continuous, anyone who has ridden a motorcycle over many winding turns knows that the countersteering must be continuous, or the bike will straighten up and quit turning. It's very tiring.
I learned quickly after riding the Tail of the Dragon the first time.
#89
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,997
Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3978 Post(s)
Liked 7,425 Times
in
2,986 Posts
My apologies. You have not, in fact, mentioned motorcycle racing in your posts. But, you do keep bringing up riding motorcycles on the road. The techniques used in those two activities are more similar to each other (due to relative weights) than they are to riding a bicycle, so if the former is irrelevant, then so is the latter.
#90
just another gosling
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 19,568
Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004
Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3905 Post(s)
Liked 1,956 Times
in
1,396 Posts
That said, it is true than in a noticeably tight turn even with considerable lean at a good speed, taking a hairpin fast is a good example, the front wheel will be pointed in the direction of the turn, as graphed above. That doesn't mean that countersteering isn't taking place, because were that forward pressure on the inside bar removed, the front wheel would quickly point even more in the direction of the turn, bringing the wheels under the rider, the bike upright, and pretty quickly off the road on the outside. That is, unless the angle of lean were so great that the increased inside steering angle caused the front wheel to wash out. That's why it's so hard to change line when cornering fast.
This is quite easy to confirm by testing at a moderate lean angle, which I have done. No need to discuss it, go try. The only issue here is the definition of countersteer. It seems most practical to define it as slight forward pressure on the inside bar before and during a turn. That said, it may seem like one is only providing down pressure on that bar to increase lean angle and that can be true if the bike were to lean more, yet follow the same line. In that case, the position of the CG w/r to contact patch has not changed, only the lean angle of the frame. To change line will require forward or aft pressure on the bars (change of steering angle) to move the wheels more or less under the CG, no matter the current steering angle.
One should never corner very close to the outside edge of the pavement for this reason. If one gets too close, it'll be impossible to move the wheels to the outside (increased countersteer) enough to increase lean angle and continue to follow the road around. See Jan Ullrich.in the '01 TdF, wisely going off the road before being hitting the guardrail because he didn't countersteer early enough and then couldn't. Brilliant bit of decision making. I've seen some local folks I was following go off into the blackberries in just this manner. Except for the blood, blackberries make great barriers.
__________________
Results matter
Results matter
#91
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,997
Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3978 Post(s)
Liked 7,425 Times
in
2,986 Posts
That said, it is true than in a noticeably tight turn even with considerable lean at a good speed, taking a hairpin fast is a good example, the front wheel will be pointed in the direction of the turn, as graphed above. That doesn't mean that countersteering isn't taking place, because were that forward pressure on the inside bar removed, the front wheel would quickly point even more in the direction of the turn, bringing the wheels under the rider, the bike upright, and pretty quickly off the road on the outside.
#93
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4,624
Bikes: iele Latina, Miele Suprema, Miele Uno LS, Miele Miele Beta, MMTB, Bianchi Model Unknown, Fiori Venezia, Fiori Napoli, VeloSport Adamas AX
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1324 Post(s)
Liked 927 Times
in
640 Posts
#94
pan y agua
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 31,311
Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1458 Post(s)
Liked 735 Times
in
376 Posts
Haven’t taken the time to read the whole thread, but Davis, “the cash register” Phinney has taken the time to explain why keeping your knee tucked in promotes the right hip angulation and counter steering. You can google it or do a bike forum search to see where this has been discussed ad naseum..
Given that Davis has won more races than any American, won multiple Tour De Frances stages, and was a great descender, I’ll chose to emulate his approach.
Given that Davis has won more races than any American, won multiple Tour De Frances stages, and was a great descender, I’ll chose to emulate his approach.
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
Likes For merlinextraligh:
#95
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 755
Bikes: 2019 CAAD12, 2015 Specialized Sirrus Comp
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 562 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 64 Times
in
46 Posts
At least the posted video finally mentions the fact that the higher the speed, the more continuous countersteering must've applied and the harder it becomes to maintain the turn. Although it may appear like the countersteering isn't continuous, anyone who has ridden a motorcycle over many winding turns knows that the countersteering must be continuous, or the bike will straighten up and quit turning. It's very tiring.
#96
Senior Member
The highly experienced motorcycle cop that taught my training course was very clear. Push on the right to turn right - just the opposite of slow speed turning. The bike will lean to the right and turn right. If you ever quit pushing, the bike will return to it's straight ahead path. Pushing harder or lowering speed will both tighten the turn. The angle of the bars or front tire was never mentioned because they don't matter. If you couldn't get that through your head, you'd never complete the series of turns on the training course. One of my earliest motorcycle rides was from my home in Highlands Ranch, Colorado to Idaho Springs, through the mountains. I made it through many tight turns with no problem.
#97
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 755
Bikes: 2019 CAAD12, 2015 Specialized Sirrus Comp
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 562 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 64 Times
in
46 Posts
The mistake made in most videos is they fail to mention that countersteering pressure on the bars is required to maintain a turn. They switch to watching the direction of the front tire, which does not matter. It's the correct amount of constant pressure that matters.
The highly experienced motorcycle cop that taught my training course was very clear. Push on the right to turn right - just the opposite of slow speed turning. The bike will lean to the right and turn right. If you ever quit pushing, the bike will return to it's straight ahead path. Pushing harder or lowering speed will both tighten the turn. The angle of the bars or front tire was never mentioned because they don't matter. If you couldn't get that through your head, you'd never complete the series of turns on the training course. One of my earliest motorcycle rides was from my home in Highlands Ranch, Colorado to Idaho Springs, through the mountains. I made it through many tight turns with no problem.
The highly experienced motorcycle cop that taught my training course was very clear. Push on the right to turn right - just the opposite of slow speed turning. The bike will lean to the right and turn right. If you ever quit pushing, the bike will return to it's straight ahead path. Pushing harder or lowering speed will both tighten the turn. The angle of the bars or front tire was never mentioned because they don't matter. If you couldn't get that through your head, you'd never complete the series of turns on the training course. One of my earliest motorcycle rides was from my home in Highlands Ranch, Colorado to Idaho Springs, through the mountains. I made it through many tight turns with no problem.
#98
Full Member
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 463
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 208 Post(s)
Liked 109 Times
in
59 Posts
Yes that is correct, it is just that your sidewall or even the mostly unused side sections of the bottom of the tire (unscuffed, accumulations of dirt/oil/residue) will not have as good a grip.
#99
Full Member
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 463
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 208 Post(s)
Liked 109 Times
in
59 Posts
Been a while since we had a good old fashioned countersteering thread! Can't turn the bike without it, unless you hit something. It is super obvious if you zig zag down a street- when you change direction near the middle of the street it is very apparent what you are doing.
#100
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,997
Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3978 Post(s)
Liked 7,425 Times
in
2,986 Posts