carleton

No effing way!

I had no idea this was actually possible and feasible:

https://www.cxmagazine.com/motor-mec...onships-update


https://www.theguardian.com/sport/201...-championships

How is this related to track? Track time trials are won and lost by the smallest margins of any cycling sport. Any slight advantage (or disadvantage) is magnified on the velodrome.

Bike-check just got a lot longer

carleton

'Technological fraud' discovered at Zolder cyclocross worlds - VeloNews.com

gycho77

I knew it sombody would do this.
With current technology, it's so easy to hide batteries and motors

carleton

I honestly never thought it would be worth the effort. Like, IF it worked, the mechanical advantage would be so minor that it wouldn't be worth the trouble. Plus maybe it would add drag to the system being that we spend so much money trying to get near frictionless bearings.

This. Changes. Everything.

Shimagnolo

Probably the Vivax-Assist (formerly known as Gruber-Assist): vivax Assist, Gruber Assist E-Bikes (Fahrradantriebe, Elektrorad )
It has been around for years.

gycho77

Found a video about this article

McRussellPants

They didn't catch her using it btw, just in a pit bike. The national coach threw her under the bus but the party line from her and her crew is that it was a friend's bike. I don't buy that though.

Also, even 25 watts or so over 45 minutes is pretty significant.

Baby Puke

Seems like the available information is pretty contradictory at the moment. Guessing this won't be sorted out for a few days at least.

dunderhi

WOW!!! If the UCI has a detection methodology, then this must have known its been going on for awhile.

I remember 30+ years ago, my teammates and I were a huddled-up in our coach's van on a freezing windy day between stages of a stage race. One of my teammates declared he was done with bike racing and was going to start motorcycle racing. He said if you want to go faster, just flick the wrist and vroom you accelerate. If you want to climb a mountain, just flick the wrist and go vroom. We all had a good laugh. This article made me realize that he was a visionary? BTW, 30+ years later, 3 out of the 4 guys from the stage race squad are still racing together on the same team.

taras0000

Anyone racing at this level has all of their T's crossed and I's dotted. That bike wasn't in the pits by happenstance as is claimed. Her older brother is also serving out a ban for EPO.

carleton

Probably right.

Yeah, you don't make a "friend's bike" that will get your banned from the sport that is a replica of your team bike, pack it up, put it on a van/airplane, travel to Worlds, take it from the hotel to the event, build it up on site...by mistake.

The team mechanic knows what every piece of kit is and where it is that pit.

We all know when we pick up our bikes if it's 1KG heavier. You can switch from race wheels down to training wheels and feel a smaller weight difference.

They all knew.

+1

I wonder how the app does what it does. It has to use some sort of external 3rd-party sensor because the built in senors on an iPad are limited to a gyroscope, sound (mic), light (camera), bluetooth, wifi, cellular, and compass.

Wow.

McRussellPants

Agree, for sure. I'm sure she was gonna jump on it to finish after her A bike packed up with mud. Interesting that she dnf'd from a mechanical on her a bike though. Wonder why she didn't take her b bike?

carleton

GOOD POINT!!

Maybe the A bike goes through normal bike check and they didn't expect the B bike to be checked.

Maybe the plan was to
- Start on the A bike
- Have an "Ooopsie" mechanical on an early lap
- Run into the pits, grab the B bike
- Profit

Maybe she DNF'd after the A bike went down when she got word that they were sniffing around her B bike.

It's worth noting that if she actually grabbed the B bike and entered the course, there would be no doubt that she intended to use that bike...nullifying the "It's my friend's bike. I would have never used that bike!" defense

CliffordK

I've wondered. Fluoroscopy would work, but probably more complex than necessary.

My guess is they use some kind of induction sensor, similar to a redlight sensor in the road. Or, perhaps a magnetic sensor. It is possible that the motor could be picked up on a normal antenna, but I'm thinking maybe an external sensor.

I do find it a bit odd, unless the races are short enough that a bike swap would leave her so far back in the field that it wouldn't help.

At this point, I think one should wait for the final UCI ruling.

So far I haven't seen anything discussing the battery in the bike. Perhaps it is just assumed, but without a battery, there is no boost. I could imagine a training partner using electric assist.

McRussellPants

Probably would have gotten back off the B bike after it had 'packed up'. Finished with a fresh bikes and relatively fresh legs.

I guess the UCI has magnetic scanners on their I pads now though? Jeremy Powers mechanic posted a video, but I'm on my phone.

Dalai

Guessing by some of the comments you guys don't race or watch CX...

Said to have used thermal imaging. It was around 4 degrees Celsius on the day of the race, so expect it could show clearly...

As to bike swaps, often racers with have a extra bike with a larger front chain ring specifically for the critical start before swapping bikes a few laps in. Depending on the conditions, riders will swap bikes numerous times and won't require a mechanical to make a swap.

Back to track discussions please. CX is > Cyclocross Racing

carleton

It's mountain biking using a road bike with knobbies, right?

Ah! Thanks! That explains it. I've seen this device in the Apple Store in Atlanta for $250USD: https://www.apple.com/shop/product/HJ...thermal-imager



Yeah, I posted it here with this disclaimer:

The most obviously easy abuse would be in a pursuit. Riding a 4K with up to 200W boost would prove enormous. Of course, the smart cheater would simply stay within a prescribed pace to not arouse suspicion and only win by a few seconds.

Hell, even events as short as the Kilo would benefit from a boost during that dreadful last 250M.

So, the real question isn't so much will this turn up at Track Worlds or the Olympics...but Masters Nationals or Worlds. Masters racers have more money to spend on gadgets and less to lose if they get caught.

taras0000

Also, if you watch the Hesjedal video, one of the follow up vids is in Spanish and demonstrates how a spinning rear wheel will continue to spin and drive the bike in a circle around the wheel.

carleton

Thanks for noting that. I removed the video above.

Dalai

Plus the motor of course.

gtrob

how about instead of banning motors, just accept it and control it. Imagine a scratch race where everyone has a 5 second boost button they could use at some point in the race. Or a points race where instead of points, you get a few seconds of your motor back. Like KERS in F1.

Id watch that


In serious, if the UCI has been checking for it, and they have, there must have been a good chance to see it. and if there is incentive to cheat, someone always will, regardless of the consequence.

dunderhi

So the people with the least to gain (no lucrative pro contracts) are the most likely to cheat? Yeah, I guess that sounds about right for the super competitive, but for the rest of us, we are just following our doctor's orders to get healthier... or else.

carleton

I didn't say masters are most likely to cheat. But, they can, have, and will do so in the future. There is significantly much less bike and drug testing on the Masters scene than on the UCI Elite level.

The fact that they do test at Masters Nationals and Worlds and catch people is proof enough that people are more than willing to break the rules to win. Masters racers spend a decent of money annually for their hobby and some spend A LOT more than others. The urge to "buy speed" is palpable.

Man, this is as real as it gets when it comes to "buying speed" in the sport of cycling. No custom carbon frame, wind tunnel testing, coach, fancy wheels, etc... can give you the results that this motor can. That temptation will be too hard for some to resist.

Human nature is human nature. It takes A LOT of blood, sweat, tears, and money to get to the top of this sport in any division (Jr, Elite, or Masters). There will always be people who are willing to break the rules to win if they think they can get away with it. From a local card game to the highest levels of sport, it happens and will continue to happen.

CliffordK

With Masters racing, there is the dream of reclaiming one's youth. So, steroids, testosterone, and EPO may be used by some.

Riding a motorcycle in a bike race may not have the same appeal.

dunderhi

I thought that's why we bought convertibles.