rydabent

On almost all the cycling forums you can read of cyclist being killed by drunk drivers, drivers running down cyclist on the shoulder, and in one case a drunk driver killing a cyclist on the sidewalk. And what happened to these killers, almost nothing more than a slap on the wrist.

Now sadly a football player driving drunk killed a fellow football player. He is in jail charged with motor vehicle homicide and if he wants out he would have to pay $500,000 in bail.

Now why doesnt this happen when a cyclis is killed? Are football players more valuable than a cyclist? That cant be true since in one or more cases the cyclist was a doctor.

I still say if you are so off your rocker you want to kill someone, buy them a bike and just run over them. The justice system will just say oh well no big deal he or she was just a worthless cyclist!!!!!

FBinNY 

I don't think you can read this as sentiment that football players are considered more important than lowly cyclists. I think it's more a matter of the state, and even the county where the accident happens, and the availability and quality of eyewitness testimony. Here in New York state, we have some prosecutors who aggressively pursue vehicular homicide charges for drunk drivers, and others who don't.

Myosmith

OP, That isn't accurate. There are many cases where people who have injured or killed cyclists have faced criminal charges and many more who were held civilly liable. Most of the time the incidents reported on forums are very recent and still under investigation. The judicial process is not a speedy one and charges may not actually be filed for months and the trial may not take place for a year or more after that. By the time the proceedings are complete, it's old news and doesn't garner nearly the headlines the initial incident did. In civil court, it can take just as long and the results, while public record, may never be picked up by the media.

In some cases, there may be no criminal charges. For example, if I'm stone sober and right hook a cyclist that I didn't see because he was in my blind spot and he dies, I might walk away with a traffic ticket as there was no criminal intent, it was an accident. That doesn't release me from civil liability if his family sues and they may take everything I own or ever will own.

https://www.krqe.com/dpp/news/crime/s...-in-bike-death

https://www2.wnct.com/news/2012/dec/0...nt-ar-2837798/

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-2...-death/4228300https://republicanherald.com/news/new...eath-1.1393499

https://www.mrtimes.com/story.html?id=7663398

https://www.santacruzsentinel.com/san...crash-sues-man

https://www.reporternewspapers.net/20...yclists-death/https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/arti...yclist-s-death

There are numerous other examples. Many of the sentences seem light, but they are not dissimilar to the sentences handed down in neglegent death cases of non-cyclists by other means. Is our court system screwed up? Probably, but it doesn't seem to take the death of a cyclist any less seriously than the death of an occupant of another vehicle or a pedestrian. Of course there will always be examples of failures in the court system and people who got away with it because of lack of evidence, procedural screw ups, or just because they could hire enough legal firepower, but that is across the board affecting cyclists and everyone else alike.

agent pombero

Society does say the NFL player is more valuable than other people. People who attend their games, buy their merchandise, watch their games on tv, etc, support these huge salaries. Contrast this to regular people who'll play for free with their friends or at worst losing team buys everyone drinks. The drunk drivers that maim and kill, the detracted drivers on cellphones that maim and kill, warrant little more than a little blip in the local news and then they're forgotten. It takes some spectacular carnage (or someone of high socioeconomic status) to warrant any significant outrage, let alone more than a handful of commentators on the news article decrying such drivers. Contrast this to the news articles that mention police traffic enforcement stings for cyclists, and then suddenly hundreds of commentators come out of the woodwork. Weird.

rjkfsm

OP, if all other factors being equal, there are differences in jurisdictions. Different DA's, different cops, and different lawyers all make a subtle but important difference. Do some people escape justice simply because the victim was a cyclist and people in the system have the "get off the road" complex? I am sure it happens, but I believe it is a small minority of cases.

RK

rydabent

The reason I am so disgusted by this situation is that here in Lincoln 4 or 5 years ago a judges wife ran over and killed a cyclist waiting to make a lefthand turn onto his street. He was waiting for oncomming traffic to clear. There was NO criminal charge filed.

The family had to resort to civil court to get justice.

ModeratedUser150120149

Don't judge what happens solely by what is in the news/entertainment media. Their purpose is to make profits for their company; not to completely report all events.

Fact is what happens to an impaired driver largely depends on what evidence is available from the incident and the local police and court folks. In a case I'm familiar with the driver received a lengthy prison sentence and was ordered to pay over $400,000 for restitution and ongoing counseling for the family of the grade schooler she killed.

FBinNY 

I don't know the specifics, but you have to understand that there has to be a criminal act for a criminal charge to be lodged. To move from a simple accident, there has to be more, such as driving drunk, intentionally hitting the cyclist, or a high degree of (criminal) negligence. In some states add using a cell phone the the list of possible criminal acts.

The bar of criminality is set pretty high (IMO rightfully so) and the law recognizes that accidents do happen for any number of reasons, and treats most of these that way, even when someone dies.

While we may feel there should be severe punishment when there's a death or severe injury, the law considers the contributing factors more the specific outcome.

B. Carfree

I call BS on all the "different jurisdictions" claims. While I lived in Davis, CA, which is in Yolo County (we called it YoYo), there were two near-identical killings by drivers of tomato trucks (semi hauling two trailers with open tubs of tomatos, 80,000+ pounds; very dangerous vehicles with agriculture exemptions allowing sixteen hour shifts).

In one case, the truck driver overtook a cyclist at an intersection where the light was red. She was proceeding straight in a bike lane and he right-hooked her to death when the light turned green. He stopped just long enough to determine what happened, then he got back in his rig and high-tailed it to the plant one-half mile away. When the cops showed up, he was washing the cyclist's guts from the underside of his rig. He then claimed that he had never been at the intersection in question, a claim that was proven false by both the gore and by witness accounts (This lie proves hit-and-run, since one must know that one has been involved in a wreck for this charge to be valid and there would be no reason to lie if he didn't know he had run the cyclist down.). His sentence: probation without loss of license or suspension of license. Oh, by the way, he wasn't even a citizen of the U.S.

Six months later, a few miles to the north, an elderly couple was stopped in their car waiting for traffic to clear so they could make a left turn. The driver of a tomato truck attempted to pass them on the shoulder then lost his nerve and hit the brakes which caused the pull-trailer to jackknife just enough to strike the car and kill the elderly couple. The truck driver remained at the scene and called for an ambulance. He got a jail sentence of several years.

Same laws, same road, same district attorney, same type of killing vehicle, killer clearly at fault in both cases and clearly driving with reckless disregard of the lives of other road users. The difference? Obviously one of the victims was a mere cyclist and it is not considered worthy of punishment to remove them from the road.

In the '20s, many black citizens were killed and maimed without any apparent reaction by law enforcement or prosecutors. They were considered less than human by those in authority. Cyclists are the new black in this country.

agent pombero

B. Carfree, can you provide me some links / more information about the tomato truck that killed a cyclist while she was legally waiting at the red light?

FBinNY 

Two cases do not a pattern make.

I have yet to see any evidence that cyclist deaths are treated any differently than other road deaths. Pedestrians are hit and killed all the time, and it's rarely a criminal case, likewise other motorists.

I been riding crowded urban streets daily for years, and have met rude, obnoxious, unskilled, dumb, distracted (more common lately) ignorant, etc. drivers on a regular basis. Even a few drunks, but they're rare (or unnoticed). But malicious drivers are so rare (and this is NY) as to be a true exception. (not counting morons that shout at me).

Given the attitude in Westchester County DAs office, I have every confidence that a fatal drunk driving accident would be aggressively prosecuted regardless of the victim.

BTW- I get tired of the whiny "I'm a socially aware cyclist, helping prevent global warming, and good for the community, besieged by ignorant motorist pigs who waste national resources and contribute to the decline of urban quality of life, and the system's unfairly rigged against me" attitude.

Yes, things could be better in many ways, and a bit of education could go a long way, but I don't see myself or other cyclists as either heroes or victims.

agent pombero

Patterns begin at 2. I have found more. You mentioned this tomato truck on a post here two years ago. I can't find any articles about it on Google. Would you mind helping me find something?

Edit: Found it. Is this the same incicent? It varies a little bit in how you told it, namely that both the truck driver and cyclist were waiting at the red light then at the green he performed a right hook and killed her.

FBinNY 

I fail to see how this is an example of authorities making light of a cyclist fatality. There's no followup, so we don't know how it played out, but vehicular manslaughter isn't like running over a dog, even without gross negligence.

The drivers claim of not seeing the cyclist or being aware of the collision may very well be true. Cab height may limit sight lines, so if the cyclist came up from the back it's very possible the driver had no idea she was there. Of course if he caught up to her it's a different story. No mention of which is made, so I take it at face value.

Years ago many over the road trucks had the following message painted in back - "If you can't see me, I can't see you" - to remind drivers about blind spots. This would be a good thing for cyclists to consider. If you're to the right of a truck and cannot make eye contact with a driver, odds are he doesn't know you're there.

In urban trafic, I often come up on stopped cars at lights, often just as the light is changing. Depending on the circumstances I often shout out "don't turn right", and every once in a while the drive will respond "I wasn't going to" , but regardless, I've made him aware of my presence to his right, and avoided possible right hooks.

agent pombero

The purposes of knowing the specifics about this incident serve my purposes in the tread in my signature. In particular that following the rules of the road (stop signs/red lights) don't guarantee cyclist safety like many cyclist do gooders believe.

FBinNY 

I'm with you. The only thing that can ever protect cyclists, is themselves. Signals, good road design, alert drivers and all the like are good, but not a guaranty of your safety.

genec

Not even cyclists are a guaranty of their own safety. You can do everything right and still be overtaken by surprise. You cannot see all and be all... even cyclists are only human.

I do agree that certain forms of good road design can help, along with alert drivers and cyclists... bottom line, if all these things work at keeping cyclists safe, there is a far greater chance cyclists will be safe. Fail in one area... such as "poor road design," or "distracted motorist," then the odds for the cyclist go down dramatically, no matter how good that cyclist may be.

FBinNY 

.

You're right. Maybe I should have been clearer. I meant that that cyclists should rely on themselves for protection rather than others. But as you point out, there are no guaranties.

But, with a blend of good riding skills and habits cycling on urban street and roads can be about as safe as most of our daily activities. Given the health benefits, it could be argued that cycling on city streets is safer (in terms of life expectancy) than not doing so.

B. Carfree

The original articles appeared in the Empty Prize (Davis Enterprise) and are not available on the internet. The second-hand report from the local paper of the initial victim has a few of the facts wrong. The account I gave is what the witnesses reported; several of them were running towards the trucker when he stopped, perhaps that is why he fled (Davis was a small enough town that my sister-in-law was among the people who spoke to a witness). The cyclist did indeed arrive at the intersection ahead of the trucker, he simply assumed she would yield to his right-hook that she never saw coming. He got her with several wheels.

My point is not that two is a large sample set, but when near-identical deaths are recorded and the only substantial difference is the mode of transportation of the victims, we have a controlled experiment. The outcome of this experiment could merely indicate that the Yolo DA at the time (I think it was Doug Hacleroad, but it's been a few years so I'm not sure) was anti-cyclist and/or pro old people, but the fact that the hit-and-run aspect of the cyclist death was ignored is quite telling.

ModeratedUser150120149

Several problems with this from a legal point of view:
-Eye witness testimony not supported by evidence is notoriously unreliable.
-No two deaths under the circumstances you state are not a "controlled experiment" by any definition known to experiementers.
-What a news article states or does not state tells us nothing except the combination of reporter and editor decided to put that length and content in the news.
-"perhaps that is why he fled" is a vague and unactionable statement.

Look I don't mean to pick on you. I mean to prod you into using some logic and knowledge of how the system works. If you truly care, if you think there is some real bias, if you think cyclists are being discriminated against, start an organization to change what is happening. Contrary to what is published here in this rather narrow and self-serving forum there doesn't seem to be any systematic, blatant discrimination against cyclists of whatever stripe. Yes, there are individual incidences where bicycle riders don't seem to have received their fair due. But that happens to many people regardless of their method of transportation.

In short; don't complain here to a group of posters who probably can do very little to efffect change, if a change is needed. Get into the give and take of real life action. If you truly have a cause you will be able to enlist others to help you. Then you can change the world as many before you have done. If there is no change needed take care of your blood pressure and stay out of places like this. Unless you just like to play and use this forum for entertainment, that is.

Chris516

I understand the OP in general as the cooperation of police in incidents' involving cyclists'. In specific as to the Dallas Cowboys practice-squad player that was killed, I did think the charge was rather weak.

rydabent

fbinny

I take exception to you statement "what is a simple accident". Im sure that over 90% of the time the reason what is called an accident was negligent driving. Being on a cell phone driving drunk and total inattention to driving is NOT an accident. To my way of thinking driving a car is not much different than playing with a loaded gun.

In the case I mentioned here in Lincoln, the cyclist was in the LH lane waiting to turn left down his street. He was standing waiting for traffic to clear when this judges wife mowed him down and killed him. THAT WAS NO ACCIDENT!!!!!

FBinNY 

Sorry, there was no intent to minimize the death, or offend anybody, I was trying to differentiate between an accident and homicide under the law. Unless there was criminal intent or negligence above a legal threshold it was an accident under the law. . Apparently the local DA felt that way, unless you want to say he was bought off.

BTW- there are many cases that fall into a gray area, such as driving too fast for conditions which are judgement calls as to whether to prosecute, and then up to a jury. Here in the USA, in driving fatalities, as in any crime there's a presumption of innocence and many cases which people may feel are criminal are extremely difficult to prosecute.

genec

Thank you... Beyond what the cyclist does however... and I do have to agree that we should not rely on others, I would like to add that "others" should also be doing their best. It does a cyclist no good to have to enter a "valley of death" every time they ride. Every road user should also be as alert as a cyclist... and therein lies the rub. Clearly some on the roads have forgotten their basic responsibilities, or just never understood their responsibilities.

And I think what the OP was trying to say is that this "lack of responsibility" seems to reinforced by a lackadaisical attitude towards anyone that happens to kill a fellow road user... be they a motorist, a ped or a cyclist. It is long overdue that we stop treating collisions as mere "accidents," when so many collisions are easily prevented.

Looigi

I've heard that many times but don't believe it. I'm basically a roadie and average 5/6000 miles a year. I could easily get general health exercise benefit in ways much less hazardous the road cycling. Time spent riding a bicycle on the road is highly dangerous, much more dangerous than equal amount of time riding in a car or motorcycle, IMO.

genec

Well the comparison is always made of cycling verses sitting on the couch... so bottom line, if you do some form of exercise daily, you beat the stats easily. And these days cars with airbags make low speed collisions (say up to 40MPH) pretty much nothing more than bruises, so the stats are a bit off.