chado445510

Hello everyone!

I come mostly from the Road subforum. I started racing a few years ago and now I'm looking into building a new training wheelset for a new build this year.

I was originally looking at modern clinchers but those were expensive for good weights (<1700g) and not very unique.

So in came the vintage tubular idea. I have been looking at these for the past few days and I have came up with some good questions about them. I have studied a few prior threads that asked similar questions here, and I was amazed at how much you guys know off of the tops of your heads. I figured this would be a good place to ask!

Anyway, I have seen some nice NOS rims on ebay. I am currently looking at some Super Champion arc en ciel blue anodized rims as well as some Mavic CX 18s.

I was wondering if these rims could accommodate the higher spoke tensions that come with ten speed hubs and the other associated differences. This is even more concerning to me because the rims in question are 24h.

And this brings in another question: is 140lbs too much for this 24h wheelset? I have read differing reviews on these vintage rims and their ability to support sprints and cornering in general.

Anyway, thanks for your help!

Chad

yellowjeep

Looking forward to hearing what others have to say because I am currently sitting on a pair of NOS rims with the same idea as you. Mine are 28h and I am about 160.

noglider 

Part of the answer comes from how long you want the wheels to last. I think modern wheels don't last as long as older ones, and the customers are OK with that.

160 lbs should be OK. I have a pair of wheels that are 20h front and 24h rear. I haven't ridden them a ton, but they've been OK. I once broke a spoke in the rear, but no more since I replaced it. I weigh 175.

Super Champion rims were good in their day. Mavics were and are good rims.

chado445510

So a vintage rim would do fine with high tensions, etc? I think 2-3 years would be a fair time, hopefully that is realistic. thanks for your help!

DRietz

Chad - I don't recommend tubulars for training. That's obviously up to you, but just my opinion.

Anyway, both rims will be fine. My race wheelset is a Mavic Record du Monde de l'Heure rimset laced to DT240's - these rims were undoubtedly meant for the velodrome at a scant 300 grams (1231g wheelset weight), but they're now my road race wheelset. I laced 28h front and rear, 2x all around with DT Revs and I weight 125 soaking wet.

With these older "super light" rims, it's best to go higher on the spoke count than lower. Mostly just because they are fragile - hit a big pothole going too fast and the rims are likely toast.

They handle higher spoke tensions fine as long as they're double-eyeletted.

Bianchigirll 

"back in the day" rims with less than 32h were generally thought of as racing wheels, also alot of people considered tubulars race wheels.

I ride tubulars alot, but don't race so I won't comment on wether you should consider them for training but most people used to ride heavier wheels for training than they raced on.

I don't think spoke tension is so much a factor of the hub being for 10 but simply the number of spokes. also you would need a hub 'standard' type flanges I don't think you could use direct pull type with those rims.

the arc en ceil (aka Bark and Squeal) are great looking IMHO but never saw them blue but do have a bad rep for being noisy. the Mavics may not be so vintage but any Mavice is pretty good.

chado445510

So I'm good with any type of hub so long as it isn't straight pull? I was thinking about putting on some regular shimano hubs but I'm open to suggestions. It's looking like a pretty cool build. I also see Mavic CX 18s for pretty cheap, but they're not blue

Thanks for your help

Soil_Sampler

vintage?
126mm?
5,6,7 speed?

chado445510

Right now I'm just working with some rims that I might look in to buying if this will work out. I will probably use a ten speed hub in the build.

sced

I think you'll be fine. If it's only training wheels use a heavier rim with the 24h, which will be stronger. There were a number 300g or less rims made that are probably too flimsy for everyday riding. Something closer to 400g should work. How about 28h in back?

chado445510

I just found a supplier in France that will sell a NOS Arc en Ciel 32h rim for pretty cheap. That and a pair of CX 18s on ebay are about the same price, so it really could be either one. That would let me stay calm about durability and still enjoy some light weight. I like the Arc en Ciels because they can be polished to a nice silver. The CX 18s are good too just less blingy. I wonder if anyone has any experience?

Thanks though, that is a good point!

pastorbobnlnh 

Chad,

Welcome to C&V. The frost heaves and cracks in the roads must not be as much of a problem down on the sea coast of NH as they are up here in the mountains!

Don't forget, a major requirement here on C&V is to post pictures. Let's see your bike and those wheels when you build them.

chado445510

Yup, that's about right. We're getting ready for a 48 degree day down here. I want some real snow at least once this winter, just to remember what its like!

RobbieTunes

I've got a custom built set of tubulars, Ambrosio Crono rims, 28h, laced to modern Hope Tech hubs.
Awesome wheels, and I outweigh noglider, currently. No problems whatsoever. Running 8sp Campy.

I'm probably going to buy the Shimano 8/9/10 freehub for it, so I can use it on other bikes, too.
I have an 8-sp spacer kit for using Shimano 8/9/10 with Campy 8-sp, so I'll still be good to go.

Ex Pres 

There was a thread in Mechanics about just this question maybe a month ago, and IIRC the more professional/experienced wheelbuilders over there expressed some reservations, as modern hubs require more dish, and therefore greater inequality in spoke tension between the DS and NDS. Since the NDS has a minimum required tension, that meand the DS has to have an even greater tension on a modern hub versus a vintage hub. The older rims didn't have to deal with the resultant higher tension, and so weren't designed with those in mind. It may be worth your while to find and read that thread.

The views expressed above are not those of the poster. I've a set of 280g Saavedra rims waiting for lacing to a modern light 10s Campy compatible set.

yellowjeep

Can you post some detail shots?

RobbieTunes

Why yes, yes I can.
Front is 28h, rear is 32h. I'd ride just as hard if the rear was 28h. No muss, no fuss.

seypat

This is somewhat not related to the OP's question. I would think that unless it drastically changes the handling and feel of your bike, you would not want your training wheels to be super lite anyways. Or at least not as light as your racing wheels. The reason is training with the heavier wheels will give you a boost on racedays. Even if the boost is minor, or even just in your head, it still will be a small boost. You know how important the mental state is.

DRietz

I agree. And training on tubulars is risky. Not to mention training on delicate tubular RIMS.

jan nikolajsen 

Ex Pres is mentioning what might be the crux of the matter: You'd have to be careful not to overdo it with the drive side spoke tension, given the increased dish. A balancing act, I'd think. Done right, with NOS double eyeletted rims, there is probably enough of a strength margin.

I won't comment on the virtues of tubulars, as this is a frequently debated, and often opinionated, issue around here.

USAZorro

I have used the same type of rims on a couple wheel builds. I would not have qualms building wheels spaced for 120mm or 126mm with them, but would hesitate to build a set of wheels dished for 130mm spacing. They may be fine, but I have seen older rims where the tension was high develop fine stress fractures around the spoke holes.

RobbieTunes

Some triathletes around here are returning to tubulars because of the tape. You mention "glue" or "sew-ups" and they get all cold and fishy. They care about grams, of course, having drunk that Koolaid.

My wheelset above was intentionally built with modern hubs and old-school rims. I see little downside to them as far as strength, weight, and performance. No, they're not aero, but if I was so inclined, I can get a disc cover for $90 for the rear and call it a day.

Now, some older tubular rims, like, for example, a Fiamme Super Hard, well, that's a different story. Once they get out of true, the remedy often made them out of round, also. There are certainly early tubular rims like that, but another example would be the Matrix aero tubular rim, I think it's the ISO-C, or something. Light weight, very strong, low spoke count (28's, I think), and certainly at home with high tension and modern hubs.

A lot of variables, but given consideration towards the type of rim when building, I certainly can see a problem if the wheelbuilder is asked to create substantial angles with the dish. Going from a rim for 120mm hubs to a modern 130mm or 135mm hub, well, the dish on that would be something I'd leave to another, newer rim.

The market here for tubular aero wheels is way down, price-wise, and as the triathletes realize they can "use" tape (i.e. tell their bike shop to use tape...), they are picking them up, getting new tires and tape, and saving the grams. That's what they want.

chado445510

Well, I just made it around to buying a set of rims. Ebay auction ended on Sunday, I won a set of NOS double-eyeletted Mavic GL330 rims, and I am currently deciding what I'm going to do with them. They ended up being $81 and they're 32h, so I can breathe easy knowing they'll most likely be durable.

For hubs, bikehubstore hubs seem like the best choice. They're very cheap, light, and they have high flanges for a good bracing angle, so lower tensions. If anyone knows better hubs, please enlighten me, I'm very open to new hubs.

As far as spokes go, I'm thinking that double butted are the way to go. I gathered from Sheldon Brown's page on spokes that these butted spokes will stretch enough to really increase the durability of both the rim and the spokes themselves. Is this right? Is there a better spoke choice for the hubs or rims?

Hopefully this works out. I'll have a mechanic at the LBS to build it up for me, so he can add in whatever he thinks will work to promote the longevity of the wheels.

TimmyT 

For any of the major brands at discounted prices, try ribble.

chado445510

Well, I finally got the wheels finished. Here are some on the bike. If anyone is still reading this thread and wants more, ask, and you shall receive. They corner beautifully, and I haven't noticed any issues with stiffness yet.

Specs: GL 330 rims, with 32 CX-Ray rear spokes, 2x, with 32 Laser front spokes, 2x. Bikehubstore hubs and skewers, and Vittoria Evo SC tires. Total cost, including tires, assembly, and skewers was $531. Very good considering I got the tires for ~63% off.