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Kilo: how much time can I cut w/aero components?

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Kilo: how much time can I cut w/aero components?

Old 04-03-18, 06:22 PM
  #26  
Baby Puke
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This is funny to look at, being so long ago. The kilo comparison I did was a full aero bike (Dolan DF3, disc rear, Corima 4 spoke front, aerobars, plus skin suit and aero helmet) vs NJS style (Panasonic steel bile, 36 spoke NJS wheels, keirin mushroom lid. Aero was 1:10 NJS was 1:13. Not very scientific.
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Old 04-03-18, 07:02 PM
  #27  
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In 1980, Gord Singleton went 1:03.823 on steel tubes, spokes, and drop bars (as well as 10.58 with the same set-up for the F200). What sort of time do you think he would've been able to pull off with the Equipment available today? As well, what do you think he would be capable of with today's training methods?

I know it's like comparing Merckx's Hour with Boardman's Hour*, but I can distinctly remember watching WC races and seeing guys in the top 5 basically hovering around the same mark, and that was maybe 10-15 years ago.
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Old 04-05-18, 12:23 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by 700wheel
According to the posted program for 2018 the 500m is still in for certain riders;
Home - Masters Worlds LA
I sure hope so because I know several riders training for this event.
I hear Travis is pushing back, and trying to keep the schedule the same as last year, but the decision is still pending.
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Old 04-05-18, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by rensho3
I hear Travis is pushing back, and trying to keep the schedule the same as last year, but the decision is still pending.
That's good to hear.

Any idea what the rationale is from the UCI?
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Old 04-05-18, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by rensho3
I hear Travis is pushing back, and trying to keep the schedule the same as last year, but the decision is still pending.
Changes to event rules and distances should not be applied for two years to give riders adequate preparation time.
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Old 04-05-18, 04:33 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by carleton
That's good to hear.

Any idea what the rationale is from the UCI?
Get some changes on podium names?.. :-)
Just kidding, but on 500 the force/weight relation rules against sustainable power/frontal area on full kilo.
As a heavy guy, I lost lots more on first lap compared with second lap, to fast (old) guys.
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Old 04-05-18, 05:41 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by carleton
That's good to hear.

Any idea what the rationale is from the UCI?
I don't know. But since when has the UCI needed a reason?
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Old 04-05-18, 06:45 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Clythio
Get some changes on podium names?.. :-)
Just kidding, but on 500 the force/weight relation rules against sustainable power/frontal area on full kilo.
As a heavy guy, I lost lots more on first lap compared with second lap, to fast (old) guys.
Yeah, Power/Weight is a factor for standing starts. Power/CdA is what's important after that. I think that's what people mean when they say "weight doesn't matter on the track". (Which I don't agree with.)
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Old 04-05-18, 08:14 PM
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Old 05-30-18, 08:54 AM
  #35  
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from a totally n=1 (but a fair reference for others because I am both a total novice Kilo'er and very slippery to the wind)
1:18 at Rock Hill, power 322avg - bad start big gear no warmup (54/14 gear, never tried a kilo before)

CdA - high .19x (along with low rolling tyres - vitt pista evo 19/22)
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Old 05-31-18, 05:10 AM
  #36  
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How'd you calculate your CdA?
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Old 05-31-18, 05:41 AM
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Originally Posted by southernfox
How'd you calculate your CdA?
I use aerolab for calculations from ride to ride (you do have to make an educated guess about rolling resistance and account for the wind, so it's not perfect)

I've spent a good amount of time (cough* $$$ *cough) at A2 as well. Always good to verify (although the tunnel has it's own issues/pitfalls)

I'd like to use the alphamantis system (I've used a competitors product in beta testing) on the track, that would probably be optimal but it's also hard to get ahold of. :/ (I think only EROsports has a system in the US currently)
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Old 06-02-18, 10:05 PM
  #38  
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I think the right wheels make the biggest difference (same track, under the same conditions), disk vs 4 or 5 spoke vs deep dish spoke are dependent upon track, indoor/outdoor, head wind, cross wind, etc. Beyond that, I believe rider comfort and positioning are the key factors. If you rarely train with aero bars, putting them on for a competition could actually be a hinderance. If you ride drops the majority of the time, you practice standing starts in them, can get fairly low and aero in them and can give 100% throughout the entire effort, they are faster for you. If you do all of your training in drop bars, then decide for competition that you need aero bars, have to slow down to go from standing start position to aero bars and then are all over the track trying to control yourself while in a foreign position, aero bars are actually slower. However, if you train all the time in aero bars, that may be a different story. This is coming from a Masters prospective, rather than an Elite rider that has time to train in them hours a day on a regular basis. By the way, anyone interested in buying a pair of 3T Revo LTD aero bars? Used twice....just kidding, but not really.
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Old 06-03-18, 01:56 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Divebrian
I think the right wheels make the biggest difference (same track, under the same conditions), disk vs 4 or 5 spoke vs deep dish spoke are dependent upon track, indoor/outdoor, head wind, cross wind, etc. Beyond that, I believe rider comfort and positioning are the key factors. If you rarely train with aero bars, putting them on for a competition could actually be a hinderance. If you ride drops the majority of the time, you practice standing starts in them, can get fairly low and aero in them and can give 100% throughout the entire effort, they are faster for you. If you do all of your training in drop bars, then decide for competition that you need aero bars, have to slow down to go from standing start position to aero bars and then are all over the track trying to control yourself while in a foreign position, aero bars are actually slower. However, if you train all the time in aero bars, that may be a different story. This is coming from a Masters prospective, rather than an Elite rider that has time to train in them hours a day on a regular basis. By the way, anyone interested in buying a pair of 3T Revo LTD aero bars? Used twice....just kidding, but not really.
This is pretty smart. I get around this by doing training efforts that are longer than 250m in my aerobars, and keep the drops on for anything under that, excluding starts immediately preceding a kilo. But I have my bullhorns set pretty much identically to my drops, so standing start is the same on either. I confirmed this by tying my best standing 333 recently as my first lap of a kilo- in the aerobars. But most people set them up waaaaaaay higher than their drops. I just don't understand this.
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Old 06-03-18, 06:15 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by Baby Puke
This is pretty smart. I get around this by doing training efforts that are longer than 250m in my aerobars, and keep the drops on for anything under that, excluding starts immediately preceding a kilo. But I have my bullhorns set pretty much identically to my drops, so standing start is the same on either. I confirmed this by tying my best standing 333 recently as my first lap of a kilo- in the aerobars. But most people set them up waaaaaaay higher than their drops. I just don't understand this.
Many bullhorns can get *lower* than one's drops. So it's extra weird that people set them up so high.
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Old 06-03-18, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by southernfox
Many bullhorns can get *lower* than one's drops. So it's extra weird that people set them up so high.
I believe this has to do with the rider comfort I eluded to in my post. Not only physical comfort, but mental comfort. A lot of it depends upon the size of your upper body, length of legs, crank length and flexibility.....go too low and your knees are hitting you in the chest, your breathing is restricted or you can only produce 90% power throughout the effort. If that is the case and you raise the bars up, now your legs have clearance, you can breathe more freely and you can give 100% effort across the effort, then the higher bar position is better even though you may be giving up a little aero advantage. Not saying that is the case in all instances, but I do see that happening for some. Other thing is that alot of people don't have the luxury of training at the velodrome or have a track bike with a front brake they can train with on the road, so they do all their training on a road bike and use a higher drop position as it is more comfortable for longer periods of time or gives them more control. When they transition to a track bike, the chose a position that feels comfortable or natural to them, which is naturally the one they have been using and training with on the road.

One thing that is probably more of an issue in men of the masters age than it is for the women, is they tend to be a bit round in the belly and don't stretch.

Last edited by Divebrian; 06-03-18 at 12:33 PM.
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Old 06-03-18, 01:09 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by Divebrian
I think the right wheels make the biggest difference (same track, under the same conditions), disk vs 4 or 5 spoke vs deep dish spoke are dependent upon track, indoor/outdoor, head wind, cross wind, etc. Beyond that, I believe rider comfort and positioning are the key factors. If you rarely train with aero bars, putting them on for a competition could actually be a hinderance. If you ride drops the majority of the time, you practice standing starts in them, can get fairly low and aero in them and can give 100% throughout the entire effort, they are faster for you. If you do all of your training in drop bars, then decide for competition that you need aero bars, have to slow down to go from standing start position to aero bars and then are all over the track trying to control yourself while in a foreign position, aero bars are actually slower. However, if you train all the time in aero bars, that may be a different story. This is coming from a Masters prospective, rather than an Elite rider that has time to train in them hours a day on a regular basis. By the way, anyone interested in buying a pair of 3T Revo LTD aero bars? Used twice....just kidding, but not really.
You are absolutely right.

I watched Steve Hill (2x US Elite Kilo champ, Masters 750 world champ) train for a full season, and he only put his drop bars on when he was racing a pro or Masters Nationals sprint tournament. EV-ER-Y effort was in aero bars.

You have to be absolutely comfortable on them to perform your best.

Originally Posted by Divebrian
I believe this has to do with the rider comfort I eluded to in my post. Not only physical comfort, but mental comfort. A lot of it depends upon the size of your upper body, length of legs, crank length and flexibility.....go too low and your knees are hitting you in the chest, your breathing is restricted or you can only produce 90% power throughout the effort. If that is the case and you raise the bars up, now your legs have clearance, you can breathe more freely and you can give 100% effort across the effort, then the higher bar position is better even though you may be giving up a little aero advantage. Not saying that is the case in all instances, but I do see that happening for some....
Also consider the fact that people often move their saddle forward and up when fitting for aero bars, for the same reasons that tri folks do. It rotates the entire system forward with relation to the bottom bracket leaving the rider ultimately lower with regards to the air coming in. This helps with the knees-in-the-chest thing.

Last edited by carleton; 06-03-18 at 01:30 PM.
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Old 06-03-18, 01:24 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by carleton

Also consider the fact that people often move their saddle forward and up when fitting for aero bars, for the same reasons that tri folks do. It rotates the entire system forward with relation to the bottom bracket leaving the rider ultimately lower with regards to the air coming in.
When I was racing with only one bike, I had an extra saddle/seatpost just for my aerobar set up. This wasn't that rare of a thing, but maybe times have changed?
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Old 06-03-18, 01:33 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by taras0000
When I was racing with only one bike, I had an extra saddle/seatpost just for my aerobar set up. This wasn't that rare of a thing, but maybe times have changed?
I was coached to do that when I was training with the Kilo in mind. I think it still applies. Maybe some coaches simply miss this (for various reasons).
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Old 06-03-18, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Divebrian
I believe this has to do with the rider comfort I eluded to in my post. Not only physical comfort, but mental comfort. A lot of it depends upon the size of your upper body, length of legs, crank length and flexibility.....go too low and your knees are hitting you in the chest, your breathing is restricted or you can only produce 90% power throughout the effort. If that is the case and you raise the bars up, now your legs have clearance, you can breathe more freely and you can give 100% effort across the effort, then the higher bar position is better even though you may be giving up a little aero advantage. Not saying that is the case in all instances, but I do see that happening for some. Other thing is that alot of people don't have the luxury of training at the velodrome or have a track bike with a front brake they can train with on the road, so they do all their training on a road bike and use a higher drop position as it is more comfortable for longer periods of time or gives them more control. When they transition to a track bike, the chose a position that feels comfortable or natural to them, which is naturally the one they have been using and training with on the road.

One thing that is probably more of an issue in men of the masters age than it is for the women, is they tend to be a bit round in the belly and don't stretch.
Seeing the equipment most masters racers have, I think they tend to have more disposable income than me So I think it comes down to how dedicated someone is to becoming their best. (And yes I have a 40hr+/week career.)
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Old 06-03-18, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by southernfox
Seeing the equipment most masters racers have, I think they tend to have more disposable income than me So I think it comes down to how dedicated someone is to becoming their best. (And yes I have a 40hr+/week career.)
While generally true, if you hang around the sport long enough, eventually you buy/trade up your way to having a nice set of gear. Generally the stuff doesn't break. So, the upgrade path looks like this:

- Buy X (frame, cranks, bars, whatever...)
- Drool after Y.
- Save some $$ (or get extra cash from selling stuff from other hobbies, tax returns, etc...)
- Sell X.
- Use money from Savings and sale of X to buy Y.
- X now equals Y.
- Repeat over several years.

This is how I went from a:
- Planet X frame
- Deep V rims
- Road bars
- etc...

(Several years later)

up to:
- LOOK 496, Felt TK1, Felt TK FRD, etc...
- SRM crankset
- Scatto bars,
- Mavic IO/Comete wheels
- etc...

While my friends were buying guitars, vintage stereo gear, motorcycles, cars, boats, guns, booze, or other stuff for adult hobbies.

No joke, when I (virtually) stopped drinking, that saved me about $100/week that I could put towards bike stuff. I used to drink on par with other young social drinkers (Friday & Saturday nights with the occasional happy hour here and there). Now I maybe have 1-2 drinks per month...if that. It's totally off my radar.

So, from my perspective, I don't think Masters necessarily have more money than you. They've been in the game longer and have traded up a bunch. We generally have the same job and family time constraints and financial obligations as other adults
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Old 06-03-18, 04:09 PM
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Well, I don't have kids: I race bikes
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Old 06-03-18, 04:13 PM
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What I see a lot of wealthy masters doing is buying the latest greatest carbon TT bar set up, but these are invariably for road bikes, and they often won't work if you're trying to match a track sprint hand position on the drops. Many of these have minimal or zero drop to the bullhorns. The drops position (starting, first lap) and the skis position (rest of the race) are two separate positions and should be treated as such during set up. Somebody on here or FGF years ago suggested setting up for kilo first just with the bullhorns, skis not even mounted. Once the bullhorns portion was dialed, then strap on the skis and set those up. Most high dollar carbon TT bar's won't let you do this. An old school alloy bull horn and simple clip on aero bar set up will. If you need to raise your skis position you shim them or make changes just to that set up, you don't touch the bullhorns.
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Old 06-03-18, 04:28 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by carleton
Also consider the fact that people often move their saddle forward and up when fitting for aero bars, for the same reasons that tri folks do. It rotates the entire system forward with relation to the bottom bracket leaving the rider ultimately lower with regards to the air coming in. This helps with the knees-in-the-chest thing.
I think this is actually more applicable to enduros going from mass start to a TT position. If you're a sprinter it's likely you're already at or pretty close to the UCI limit regarding forward saddle placement. I've never felt the need to change mine.
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