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Bolt broken off in frame

Old 03-13-18, 12:50 PM
  #1  
DocSween
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Bolt broken off in frame

Newbie to this forum with a question:

I have a Trek 920.

... I love it. I sold my carbon fiber road bike a year ago because it was just sitting in the garage. So now I'm down to three bikes. ;-) ...

Ok, so anyway I had a kickstand mounted on the chainstay of my Trek. I failed to check on the bolts holding it it. They became loose. One of the bolts bent. The other broke off, leaving half a bolt in the frame. I took the bike to my LBS. They tried using an Easyout to remove the bolt from the frame. The Easyout broke off. So now I have a bolt broken off in my frame with an Easyout broken off in the bolt.

Any ideas on how I can remove the piece of bolt without messing up my frame?
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Old 03-13-18, 01:04 PM
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I'm trying to picture where the bolt is. I see it's an aluminum frame, but can't find any photos from tyhe left side where I assume the kickstand is mounted.

Normally kickstands wouldn't bolt directly to the chain stay, but given your problem I wonder if it is. If so, I suspect that the issue might be that the bolt is stuck because of galvanic corrosion, which would make torquing it out very difficult.

Odds are that you can get the easy-out free by turning the stub to the right using vise-grips or similar. Then you've back to the bolt which can probably be drilled out using a drill sized according to the root of the thread (use a tap drill chart to find the right size) Once that's done, you might try retapping. Or drill the bolt out with a drill matched to the OD, and fitting a thread insert if the fitting has enough meat. Or drill it out and use a riv-nut.

If I had more details, or, better yet a photo of the actual fitting I could probably give a more specific answer, but as it is, I hope this helped.
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Old 03-13-18, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
I'm trying to picture where the bolt is. I see it's an aluminum frame, but can't find any photos from tyhe left side where I assume the kickstand is mounted.

Normally kickstands wouldn't bolt directly to the chain stay, but given your problem I wonder if it is. If so, I suspect that the issue might be that the bolt is stuck because of galvanic corrosion, which would make torquing it out very difficult.

Odds are that you can get the easy-out free by turning the stub to the right using vise-grips or similar. Then you've back to the bolt which can probably be drilled out using a drill sized according to the root of the thread (use a tap drill chart to find the right size) Once that's done, you might try retapping. Or drill the bolt out with a drill matched to the OD, and fitting a thread insert if the fitting has enough meat. Or drill it out and use a riv-nut.

If I had more details, or, better yet a photo of the actual fitting I could probably give a more specific answer, but as it is, I hope this helped.
I don't have my bike with me right now. Will send a picture later. Thanks very much for your reply.
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Old 03-13-18, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by DocSween View Post
now I have a bolt broken off in my frame with an Easyout broken off in the bolt.Any ideas on how I can remove the piece of bolt without messing up my frame?
been there, done that, on my car (over torqued one of the bolts holding my rear hatch on). you need new bits, special harder cobalt bits & several because they dull going into that hardened removal tool. a cpl lefthand bits too. then, when you get a new hole in that Easyout (which is stuck in the bolt), or after you drill it out completely leaving just the original broken bolt (with a nice centered hole) then get a straight, fluted, (not spiral) extraction tool, the correct size & use a proper tap wrench to turn it

it took me weeks. good luck!








in the end you want this in your hand





these are my NAPA straight fluted screw extractors. guess I got them at an auto parts store. part # SER 720

https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/SER720

this is a tap wrench to use w the fluted extractors

https://www.amazon.com/Vermont-Ameri...rds=tap+wrench

the spiral tools & so called Easyouts & similar tools are inferior



a hole the correct size matched with the correct extractor allows the extractor to be inserted a decent depth, not just the tip



was so nice getting the new bolt installed


Last edited by rumrunn6; 03-15-18 at 08:21 AM.
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Old 03-13-18, 02:43 PM
  #5  
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Originally Posted by DocSween View Post
Newbie to this forum with a question:

I have a Trek 920.

... I love it. I sold my carbon fiber road bike a year ago because it was just sitting in the garage. So now I'm down to three bikes. ;-) ...

Ok, so anyway I had a kickstand mounted on the chainstay of my Trek. I failed to check on the bolts holding it it. They became loose. One of the bolts bent. The other broke off, leaving half a bolt in the frame. I took the bike to my LBS. They tried using an Easyout to remove the bolt from the frame. The Easyout broke off. So now I have a bolt broken off in my frame with an Easyout broken off in the bolt.

Any ideas on how I can remove the piece of bolt without messing up my frame?
Hahahahaha. What a nightmare. Worst case scenario. But I have good news for you....

I had the same thing happen to me on a brand new, freshly powder coated, expensive, magnesium, racing motorcycle wheel. I broke a brake rotor (defective ) bolt off. Drilled it, inserted the easy-out, turned, and SNAP. The was no other access than the front side, where I already tried. It would be a HUGE LO$$.

I called around and asked around among the racing folks, looking for suggestions for a remedy. Someone told me, "Just have it lasered out." I said, "What???". Unbeknownst to me, there is an industry for exactly that. Mostly for automotive engine applications, but a bolt is a bolt, and an easy-out is an easy-out. I found a place close to me and they lasered it out for $35.00. They let me watch. I gotta say, the precision of the machinery, jig, and process were fascinating. When finished, the cleaned up threads looked better than the factory threads.
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Old 03-13-18, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by SquidPuppet View Post
Hahahahaha. What a nightmare. Worst case scenario. But I have good news for you....

I had the same thing happen to me on a brand new, freshly powder coated, expensive, magnesium, racing motorcycle wheel. I broke a brake rotor (defective ) bolt off. Drilled it, inserted the easy-out, turned, and SNAP. The was no other access than the front side, where I already tried. It would be a HUGE LO$$.

I called around and asked around among the racing folks, looking for suggestions for a remedy. Someone told me, "Just have it lasered out." I said, "What???". Unbeknownst to me, there is an industry for exactly that. Mostly for automotive engine applications, but a bolt is a bolt, and an easy-out is an easy-out. I found a place close to me and they lasered it out for $35.00. They let me watch. I gotta say, the precision of the machinery, jig, and process were fascinating. When finished, the cleaned up threads looked better than the factory threads.
Might be the same thing you're talking about but I've had broken extractors and bits removed with EDM (electrical discharge machining.) Cleans the threads completely and doesn't harm paint.
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Old 03-13-18, 03:20 PM
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Straight fluted extraction tool

Lasering a bolt

I learn such neat stuff here.
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Old 03-13-18, 04:16 PM
  #8  
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In talking to machinists, the EZ-outs are pretty much deprecated. Hardening stuff makes it both harder and stronger, but also more brittle.

I would suggest that unless you have extraordinary strength and eye-hand coordination, using a drill in a portable (hand) drill will be a bit difficult. If I had to get a hole in that ez-out I'd used a flex shaft tool or a die grinder (like a Dremel tool, but on steroids) with a carbide burr.

The screw extractors, if you can drill, are better.

Wire EDM is the go-to for those AFU situations where it absolutely, positively has to come out and you absolutely, positively can't hurt the workpiece (the bike in this case).

The laser stuff sounds similar, but hotter.

One last method I know of. If there's any bolt sticking out, and you can get a nut over the bolt touching all around, then a stick or MIG welder can be used to weld the nut to the broken bolt. Tough to do once there's an EZ-out remnant sticking out the end, though...

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Old 03-13-18, 04:17 PM
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I agree with everything FB says, except we are assuming that it is the twisted style of easy-out. These back out by twisting them right. If it is a straight easy-out, then it is would be more difficult. Drilling through the easy out will be difficult.
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Old 03-13-18, 04:23 PM
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Those kickstand bolts they include are a problem waiting to happen. Since the bolts are beyond glorped up with loctite, it's impossible to know how tight/loose it is with any accuracy. When you get it out, get some new ones from the dealer, clean the loctite off and put on some liquid loctite, then thread them in.

FWIW, your average small screw really needs a drill press (or very experienced person with a hand drill, plus a helper to hold everything) to accurately pilot an extractor hole. I did one of these a month or so ago, and it required careful use of a press with a tilting table.

The 920 is not intimately familiar to me, but is the backside of the dropout open on that model? It may be possible to drill from the other side with a "jobber" length bit in a right angle drill.
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Old 03-13-18, 04:46 PM
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edit.. (above picture removed)

Trek has adopted the international typical rear kickstand which has 2 5mm bolts into threaded holes in the left dropout itself..
It is being used on many of their models..


I have seen the bent bolts on those.. there is a stronger grade of steel that could be used in selecting those bolts, for use there,
but that wont help if the rider does not keep them tight enough..







....

Last edited by fietsbob; 03-14-18 at 10:07 AM.
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Old 03-13-18, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Ghrumpy View Post
Might be the same thing you're talking about but I've had broken extractors and bits removed with EDM (electrical discharge machining.) Cleans the threads completely and doesn't harm paint.
That's probably it. The gentleman that suggested it referred to it as lasering. This was back in 2001 so my memory of the details are vague. That shop had some snazzy rigs though, for sure.
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Old 03-13-18, 04:49 PM
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If you can't get the bolt out, then I'd look at a replacement kickstand that attaches a different way. There should be quite a few available.

https://www.eriksbikeshop.com/greenf...pa3215/product



That is just one option. There are quite a few available.
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Old 03-13-18, 04:55 PM
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might be drilled & threaded all the way through, then screwing the stub in, more will have it come out the other side..

(add on KS may not be compatible with rear disc mount)








..

Last edited by fietsbob; 03-14-18 at 10:09 AM.
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Old 03-13-18, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
Wrong assumption there..^
Yes, silly of me to assume OP's use of the word "chainstay" actually meant dropout.
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Old 03-13-18, 06:04 PM
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I have removed a lot of impossible broken bolts using a arc welder. I simply that a hex head bolt a little smaller, put it in the clamp, and touch it directly to the broken bolt. It welds it self to the broken bolt and now yo have a hexhead to put a wrench on. I would guess about any welder you talk to has done this many times
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Old 03-13-18, 06:39 PM
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You're going to have a very difficult time getting a drill started on a broken EZ Out. At minimum, grind it flat so it can be centerpunched and drilled. I would just get a diamond burr in a dremel and work it out carefully. Once the EZ Out is gone, you can continue to drill out the broken bolt using progressively larger drills. If the original drill was well centered, you may be able to get back to the tap drill size of the bolt and re-tap the threads.
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Old 03-13-18, 06:41 PM
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[QUOTE=rumrunn6;20221006]been there, done that, on my car. you need new bits, special harder cobalt bits & several because they dull going into that hardened removal tool. a cpl lefthand bits too. then, when you get a new hole in that Easyout (which is stuck in the bolt), or after you drill it out completely leaving just the original broken bolt (with a nice centered hole) then get a straight, fluted, (not spiral) extraction tool, the correct size & use a proper tap wrench to turn it

it took me weeks. good luck!






in the end you want this in your hand



these are my NAPA straight fluted screw extractors. guess I got them at an auto parts store. part # SER 720



this is a tap wrench to use w the fluted extractors

/QUOTE]

I was going to post some pictures of my frame but don't need to now. This looks like just what I need. The pictures are very helpful.

Thanks very much!

It will be probably be a couple of months before I can work on this. Fortunately it doesn't affect the ride-ability of the bike. I'll post pictures of my results.
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Old 03-13-18, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by SquidPuppet View Post
I called around and asked around among the racing folks, looking for suggestions for a remedy. Someone told me, "Just have it lasered out."
There is also a process called "electrical-discharge machining" or EDM; I have had it used to get a broken tap out of an expensive one-of-a-kind workpiece.
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Old 03-14-18, 03:59 AM
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Originally Posted by DocSween View Post
Fortunately it doesn't affect the ride-ability of the bike. I'll post pictures of my results.
then, maybe just leave it alone & attach the kind of kickstand mentioned/pictured above. I used that kind on two bikes & liked them just fine. move on with your bike & enjoy riding!
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Old 03-14-18, 05:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Waltsmith View Post
I have removed a lot of impossible broken bolts using a arc welder. I simply that a hex head bolt a little smaller, put it in the clamp, and touch it directly to the broken bolt. It welds it self to the broken bolt and now yo have a hexhead to put a wrench on. I would guess about any welder you talk to has done this many times
The one time I needed this process to work it did not, when trying to remove a broken exhaust stud from an aluminum cylinder head. The guy made several attempts but no go. Had to yank the head and take it to a machine shop.
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Old 03-14-18, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by DocSween View Post
Ok, so anyway I had a kickstand mounted on the chainstay of my Trek... One of the bolts bent. The other broke off, leaving half a bolt in the frame. I took the bike to my LBS. They tried using an Easyout to remove the bolt from the frame. The Easyout broke off. So now I have a bolt broken off in my frame with an Easyout broken off in the bolt.

Any ideas on how I can remove the piece of bolt without messing up my frame?
Uggh. I feel for you. I've been in the same boat, except it was the big ol' hardened pinch bolt that clamps the strut into the steering knuckle on my car. I think I broke two or three drill bits in the process of getting that @#&*$% thing out. One heck of a learning experience. And I had no car while wondering if I was ever going to get the bolt, extractor, and bits out of that hole.

If you drilled a through hole for the easy-out, can you get to it from the back side of the chain stay and maybe punch or twist it out?
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Old 03-14-18, 08:12 AM
  #23  
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The best thing you can do is use heat before using a EZ out, I will first heat the broken bolt then use a LH drill bit and with luck that will be all you need and the bolt will come right out, if not heat it some more and try a EZ out' I just removed two 5mm bolts from a Marin frame this way, but the frame was steel and the paint wasn't the best, one bolt was on the seat tube ( Water bottle boss) and the other was on the rear brake bridge where a reflector mounted which is where I need to mount a fender bracket. I got the one on the seat tube out using my heat gun and the paint was fine, but the bolt on the brake bridge required the use of a pencil torch with a few cycles of heat then a cool down with penetrant before I got it out using a EZ out, then I primed & painted the brake bridge flat black and you can't tell unless you are looking for it..

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Old 03-14-18, 07:43 PM
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The problem with heating up broken steel bolts in aluminum frames is that it takes some practice. Many years ago I was heating up a pedal spindle that was frozen in an Alu crankarm. Just when I thought I was getting to the point where I could put a wrench on it, the end of the crankarm VERY SUDDENLY shimmered slightly and then turned into a puddle. The pedal was saved, unfortunately, it had been my intent to reuse the crankarm. Thank heavens it was the left side, and a cheap 170 at that. A potentially expensive lesson learned on the cheap.
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Old 03-16-18, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by roadwing View Post
The problem with heating up broken steel bolts in aluminum frames is that it takes some practice. Many years ago I was heating up a pedal spindle that was frozen in an Alu crankarm. Just when I thought I was getting to the point where I could put a wrench on it, the end of the crankarm VERY SUDDENLY shimmered slightly and then turned into a puddle. The pedal was saved, unfortunately, it had been my intent to reuse the crankarm. Thank heavens it was the left side, and a cheap 170 at that. A potentially expensive lesson learned on the cheap.
Note, I said a pencil torch which is very small and not hot enough to melt Aluminum even using Mapp Gas. A lot of times if you heat the broken bolt up a few times and cool it down using PB Blaster or another brand that the bolt will come out with ease, I have been removing broken bolts from aluminum for years using this method working on vintage motorcycles and had to do this on my wife's Jeep when the water pump bolts were broke off in the Aluminum block.

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