DrIsotope

On of the primary reasons I went to wax was to extend the service interval-- any product recommending applications at 100km or even 200km would be ruled out from the start.

As I have said many, many times, my hot was blend is good for 500-700 miles, is (almost) completely clean, and (pretty much) doesn't gunk.

This is a few months after a drivetrain refresh. The cassette, chain, and jockey wheels have ~1,100 miles on them. The chain has been dipped twice, no other cleaning/maintenance.


On the other bike, some residue building up on the guide pulley, and the usual bits of flaky wax here and there. The cassette and chain have ~2,400 miles on them.
The jockey wheels have 11,600 miles. I don't remember ever having removed them from the cage. Chain is maybe 400 miles since last dip.

eduskator

Indeed. Stretched chain over time = teeth as sharp as a knife

canklecat

SunRace 7-speed freewheel. The 13-25 and 13-28 chromed SunRace freewheels shift more crisply and run more smoothly and quietly than my original Suntour freewheels.

woodcraft

How does wax do for this type of thing? (Not mine- from local gravel event last weekend)

eduskator

It would repel more water / dirt than the ''traditional'' way, that's for sure! You will most likely need to clean it a little more often because of your usage, but it would also be easier to clean!

August West

Did any of you guys that ordered the 1.6µ PTFE from China receive it yet?

I ordered mine Dec. 30th and it still hasn't shown up. I figured it would be a 50/50 chance that it would ever get here but the risk was low so I gave it a try. With COVID-19 in full swing now who knows what is going on. I'll give it a couple more weeks and if it doesn't show up I'll just get some 2-3𝜇 power domestically.

jadocs

Yep, I did. I ordered 28DEC and I believe I received it end of JAN. I purchased 100g, interestingly I don't see any 1.6mu PTFE available anymore. Now I wished I bought them out.

canklecat

Yup, the packet I ordered from CocinaCo on Amazon, January 7, arrived February 5. I've been too busy to try it yet.

The COVID-19 pandemic might be hindering some businesses. I've had no problems with a XOSS G+ bike computer or the app that I bought on Amazon in early January, but some customers who purchased later than I did complain about slow response from some vendors and the app developer. But the app developer said the Asian New Year celebration might cause some delays so it's possible it has nothing to do with the virus.

August West

I ordered off a seller on ebay with good ratings on Dec. 30. The tracking # I got last saw activity at the end of Jan. saying it had been turned over the airlines. I'm guessing it got lost somewhere between China and here. I'll have to reorder and will try CocinaCo.

eduskator

Ordered the same product on Amazon from the same seller on Jan 22, it was shipped on Feb 12 and I haven't received it yet. As long as I get it before April, I'm fine with that.

Funny thing, it says 1.6um in the product's title, but ''average size of 3um'' in the description. It's most likely not 1.6um particles.

August West

Well, my original Dec. 30 order from China showed up today. Yay! Two days shy of the Mar. 4 delivery window. So last week I ordered 28g of 2-3𝜇 off of Amazon because I wanted to wax my chains over the weekend and figured the China order was lost. Now with the 100g I received today + 2 lbs of wax I have in stock I should have enough to last the rest of my life unless I decided to ride around the world a few times considering the mileage people seem to get out this concoction.

After waxing my chains on Saturday I was able do a ride yesterday and today and am very happy with the 90/10 mixture. Both chain and cassette still have that frosty white appearance just like before they were ridden with none of the black splotches I was getting with MSW. And I can grab the chain with my hand and get zero residue off it.

How long are you guys running your chains? I was running my MSW chains 300 miles between swapping but in the Oz Cycling test they ran those chains 1870 miles with almost no wear so I'm thinking I can extend my intervals significantly even if I'm not using a Connex 11Sx chain.

jadocs

Check out Oz's latest video where he shows how to make some portable wax/PTFE in a bottle. I made some a few days ago because my trainer bike is waxed as well. I foresee this being a great solution for my trainer bike because it will extend the hot wax interval (trainer bike only).

In case anyone has watched that video already, I modified the process so it would include the same ratio of PTFE to wax as a regular hot wax. You will note that OZ just takes some scrapings from the top of hardened wax. Since the PTFE sinks to the bottom, it would not contain the same ratio of PTFE as a regular hot wax.

Since I was due for a re-wax on one of my bikes...while the wax was hot, I gave it a good stir. I then used a spoon to add the melted wax/PTFE to my squirt bottle. I used a 1:7 - 1:8 ratio since the wax was melted. I then filled the rest of the squirt bottle with 99.1% alcohol. Once you have everything in the bottle you will still need to heat up some water in a pot and put the bottle in until the wax is totally melted and mixed with the alcohol. (you would think since the wax is hot that adding the alcohol would be all you need to do, but adding the alcohol hardens the wax enough to where it won't mix properly). I left the bottle in for a good 20 minutes with the water heated just below boiling at roughly 80-85C.

eduskator

Watched it a few days ago. I guess you could do that liquid wax mix with hot wax (and stir it properly so that the Teflon mixes with the paraffin) as well!

This recipe isn't however intended to replace chain waxing nor to be used on long rides so I don't believe it really matters at the end of the day.

jadocs

Thats what I did, I mixed it up while it was hot to get the PTFE was mixed in with the paraffin. Worked great. As mentioned you do still need to heat the bottle in hot water.

I haven’t used it yet, but it does have some consistency to it. OZ’s looked like skim milk when mixed, mine looks like whole milk maybe a tad heavier. I do not intend to use it as a replacement for my outside bikes, but I do plan on using it to extend the hot waxing on my trainer bike.

I’ll report back, but I think the consistency of my mixture will be pretty effective.

eduskator

Keep us posted! Steven is a reference for cyclists. I like the guy.

DaveSSS 

Alcohol of any type (there are many) is not a proper solvent to dissolve wax. Paraffin will dissolve in mineral spirits or naphtha (camp stove fuel). The minimum is 3-4 parts naphtha to 1 part paraffin. That mixture will require placing the container in some warm water to liquefy, unless the room temperature is over 75 degrees F.

From my experience, there is no advantage to hot waxing, compared to application of a liquid mixture of paraffin and naphtha. A lot less wax is used, because it it is applied only to the roller and not all over the inner and outer plates where it is of no value.

jadocs

The intent is not to have the wax dissolve with the alcohol. The intent is to have the wax mix enough to where it can be applied and the alcohol evaporates. The alcohol is the vehicle for application. This leaves the wax and PTFE where it needs to be without any greasy/sticky residue.

DaveSSS 

Something has to change the wax into a liquid or it won't penetrate the chain rollers. Your idea makes no sense. Naphtha is a far better choice. There will be far less residue than a hot dipped chain, without all of the wax to flake off the inner and outer plates. Also, what type of alcohol - ethanol, methanol or isopropyl? Most isopropyl has at least 10% water, which is undesirable. If your mixture doesn't turn perfectly clear when the applicator bottle is placed in some warm tap water, it's not working properly.

I just watched the video and it confirmed what I'm saying - the paraffin and isopropyl alcohol is not a true solution, it is a suspension, which is why it's always milky. Using naphtha, you can melt the wax first and pour it into the naphtha and it will dissolve quickly at room temperature and not be milky, with the proper ratio of naphtha to paraffin, which is about 6:1. The less naptha, the higher the temperature at which the solution starts to solidify and then requires the applicator bottle to be placed in warm tap water to bring the temperature up slightly and return it to complete clarity and water like viscosity. Naphtha also evaporates quickly, leaving only the wax behind, unless you make the mistake of applying the lube immediately before riding.

PTFE can always be added to this liquid lube, but it will always be a suspension, just like it is when added to paraffin, for hot waxing. You'd have to keep shaking the applicator bottle to keep the PTFE from falling out of suspension. I prefer to add a high quality lubricating oil to the paraffin at a ratio of 1:3, before mixing it with naphtha. It's still a very clean lube with far less material flaking off than a hot waxed chain.

https://scienceline.ucsb.edu/getkey.php?key=521

jadocs

It's not my idea, I just did a slightly different process. The end result is the same except there will be the same ratio of PTFE in the solution as when you do a hot wax with PTFE in a slow cooker. The originator of the wax solution in the bottle is Oz Cycle whom we have been referencing in this thread. His method was to take wax scrapings, add 99% IPA and heat until clear to mix it up. Since PTFE sinks to the bottom, by taking scrapings it would not include the same ratio as a hot wax. He demonstrates how it works in his latest video.

I have two bikes with hot waxed chains using straight paraffin and 1.6Mu PTFE and they run silent and shift like butter. I do not have any residue other than some flakes after a fresh wax that is from the wax from the outer and inner plates (like you said), but it must be getting in the rollers otherwise it would not work as well as it does. I did one re-wax after 200 miles, not because it needed it (still ran silent and shifted great), but because I wanted to. All I can say is it works and my drivetrain remains spotless.

Does Naphtha have an oily residue?

DrIsotope

As someone who has done both-- hot wax and suspending wax in a carrier (white gas)-- I can say that they work equally well. Hot wax just lasts significantly longer and is actually less of a hassle. In the winter I dip once a month, in the summer it's every three weeks, so a single application usually lasts ~400 miles. I've been doing the chain cleaning between dips (was recommended in another waxing thread) for several months now, and sure, it keeps the wax in the pot cleaner, but I have not seen any other benefit.

It has shown me that the "gunk" on a chain is 99% magnetic, because I can get the jar almost perfectly clean just by swishing a magnet around in it. I don't know how much of that gunk is chain, but I'm guessing most of it-- the current chain pair on my road bike is at 5,400 miles and the chains are knackered.
They're both past 0.5, so new chains are already on order. I always hope for more mileage, but the FSA chains were $16 at the time, and were installed on June 12, 2019, so I feel like I got my 32 bucks worth.

Still looking for that magical chain that BF members seem to find-- the one that lasts thousands upon thousands of miles. My shortest-lived chain went around 2,300 miles, and the longest lasted about 3,500. And they were both SRAM chains, so figure that out.

DaveSSS 

Naphtha has no oily residue. ALL hot waxed chains will have a lot more wax falling off of them because you can't wipe all of the excess wax off the chain, after dipping. If only one drop of liquid lube is applied to each roller, the excess lube is greatly reduced. It may be that the liquid needs to be applied more often, but it's so quick and easy that I prefer it to hot waxing. I'm more confident that the is chain is well lubed with more frequent applications.

Regarding chain wear, that's a complicated subject, particularly if using Campy chains. I've used a Campy 10 chain with wet lube for 6,000 miles and measured less than .25% elongation over the full length, but the rollers and side clearance wear was excessive and the chain should have been trashed, far earlier. Campy recommends a length measurement between rollers, using vernier calipers, so it adds roller wear to the actual elongation. 5.220 inches or 132.6mm is the maximum recommended length. This is an increase of .75%, but very little of this increase is elongation (change in chain pitch). Most of it is roller wear. A length measurement will show less than a .25% increase.

When someone like OZ claims 15,000 miles from a chain, I simply do not believe it. If only one chain was used for this long, the cassette and chain rings might also need to be replaced, to work with a new chain. 3-4,000 miles is a more likely mileage from a high quality chain. I have a KMC X11.93 that I used for only about 1,000 miles and it already had .25% elongation, while a Campy chain with the same mileage showed too little elongation to even measure.

woodcraft

Theoretically, it takes friction to wear out a chain, so chain life should correlate with power loss.

I don't see how chains can wear out that fast without causing a bunch of friction. Isn't wax supposed to be lowest friction?

eduskator

Dirt/debris that will result in increased friction = faster wear. Waxing your chain will reduce friction, increase lifespan, and result in a few watts gained.

I don't expect a waxed chain to last 10x more than a non-waxed one. I do expect it to require less maintenance, stay cleaner and have longer relubrication intervals however. 400 miles sounds pretty amazing, but I do believe that you should re-wax it around 200 miles though. Perhaps that's the reason why it stretched quickly.

woodcraft

I was thinking of wear/friction relative to an oiled chain, not a dry one.

My mileage is lower than DrIsotope's, and power output no doubt lower as well, but more rain,

and I get more than double the miles on a KMC10SL with Mobil One, cleaned maybe 2x/year, & add oil @ 400 miles at best.

Given that the cost of the chains is not much of a factor,

isn't low friction= watts of effort saved the main point, followed, I suppose, by having a pretty bike?

And if the chain is wearing fast, does that not suggest higher friction and more watts wasted?

DaveSSS 

A cheap ​​​​​​KMC chain that wears out quickly is apparently made with softer steel either at the pins or inner plates, or both. It doesn't correlate to more friction or a loss of power, just soft metal. Campy chains have absolutely the lowest elongation of any chain I've ever used. Their pins and inner plates wear at an incredibly low rate, but the rollers still wear out (mainly in the roller holes, not the roller OD). For that reason Campy recommends a vernier caliper measurement between rollers, rather than an elongation measurement to determine when to retire a chain. The roller spacing increases as both the holes in the rollers and the roller ID wears.