chaadster

Man, there's tons of 10 year old carbon, out there, from old Giant Cadexes (which are probably 20 years old at this point), to Specialized Epics, to Trek whatever-thousands. I mean, you're kidding, right?

Scooper

It's not about strength or strength-to-weight ratio. It's about CF's low elongation and failure mode that's un-nerving.

The OP is asking about steel (>15% elongation).

thirdgenbird

You have good taste

rebel1916

Yep, but it's th internets. And when you silly gooses say silly things, I reserve the right to talk sense. It's 11 PM, my wife is sleeping (and gassy) what else do I have to do.

Scooper

Your sense is nonsense. The low elongation and consequential failure mode of CF is a physical property of the material, and that's a fact.

rebel1916

Yep, but it is also a fact that it is ridiculously strong up to the point of failure. Hell, I've ridden a motorcycle with carbon wheels at 160 on the track. Ducati's MotoGP bike is carbon. Boeing, blah blah blah. But luddite haters gonna hate.

StanSeven

The only problem old CF frames is the glued CF tube/al lugs. The glue in the lugs like on Epics didn't hold but that has nothing to do with the material. Yep, there are tons of old Treks around.

GaryinLA

How about a Surly Pacer and save the remainder of your money?

MetalPedaler

I think the CF they use on motorcicle wheels and aeroplanes is a tad beefier than what they use on featherweight bicycles.......

Couldn't ghet the earlier-referenced vid to play....but in all the "lab tests" I've seen, they're always very careful apply the force in compression...never laterally- which is precisely where carbon will fail, and is also the type of force to be most-often encountered in the real world. Maybe your CF frame won't fail if you have an elephant balancing on one leg on your steerer tube.....but give a little side impact to that fork......and CLICK!

All I know, is I've seen tons of broken carbon frames. Don't think I've ever seen a broken steel frame- except perhaps if it got ran over by a semi.

rebel1916

Man, at the end of that vid, they are whacking a frame off a concrete pillar. And carbon motorcycle wheels exist because they are the lightest possible option. Not only have I seen broken steel frames, but I broke a steel motorcycle frame back in the day. A slow, heavy motorcycle at that. If you prefer to ride steel, God bless ya, it is a great choice. But so is carbon. And a carbon frame is gonna be able to be a bit lighter, while still being stronger.

Here's that link again. I hope it works this time
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/santa-c...-test-lab.html

Bacciagalupe

I don't recall seeing that many 1970s and 80s bikes out there. And I ride one.


I don't know the stats, but CF wasn't very common 10 years ago, and even today I don't think it sells in anywhere near the same numbers as metal. It's only just beginning to hit similar price points as aluminum.


Not really, it's exceptionally strong and light. Any impact that's going to damage a CF frame would almost certainly do the same amount of damage to a metal frame.

The memes about frame materials just won't die, will they?

Bob Dopolina 

Lots and lots.

Carbon bikes have been around since the 80's. and there are literally MILLIONS of carbon forks out there. I think it's a proven material at this point.

This stuff is hot: https://www.englishcycles.com/

Chris Pringle

Many very nice steel builders out there, but finding one that meets your requirements is not an easy task. Went through this exercise (of choosing a custom builder) for my significant other a little less than two months ago. At your $5,000 budget (same as ours), I would suggest looking for a builder that prices his frame & fork that's about USD $1,500-$1,800 base. You'll be surprised by how extras (e.g., nicer paint schemes, extra braze-ons and other aesthetics requirements) quickly add up. Then about $2,500 should be budgeted for wheels and nicer components. One thing that we found in the process is how long the delivery times were for "solo” builders (a few mentioned here.) We just couldn't believe how many people are building steel custom bikes given the responses. 6-9 months was the average, but some were even longer. Deposit of up to 50% of the price of the frameset is required while you just wait anxiously for months or years. Some builders would just build the frameset while others would take care of putting together the entire bike for you (for a fee.) The latter made the most sense for us to insure everything worked seamlessly. We spent weeks carefully interviewing builders by phone (we live outside the U.S.) We chose an outfit in Seattle, WA for this custom randonneur bike -- a bike suitable for long distance comfort (non-competitive.) This outfit offered good lead times, good communication, reasonable pricing, good steel quality, all the extra features we wanted and offered the most flexibility in choosing our own components while they'd take care of the entire assembly.

You can PM me if you have further questions about the builder we chose.

Fred B

"A Rose Is A Rose Is A Rose, right?

Not when it comes to steel tubing for bicycle frames. Does it make a difference, whether it’s Cro-Mo, double butted, heat treated, etc.? You bet.

If you intend to actually ride a road bicycle (fixed or geared) for some distance, for the pleasure of riding, it’s really no different than with other products. Cars are probably the best analogy. Is there a difference between how a Honda Civic rides and handles, and how a BMW 3 series rides and handles? They both get you to where you’re going. Again, yes there is a difference. The Honda is a great car, but the Beemer is a lot more fun. That’s the point with the better quality tubing- the bike is just more fun to ride. It can get confusing, with so many types of steel tubing. Through various alloying strategies, heat treatments, etc., steel tubing sets produced by Reynolds, Columbus, True Temper, Kaisei (formerly Ishiwata) and others have gotten progressively stronger and lighter.

In general, you can look at it this way- as the tubing tensile strength increases, the wall thickness of the tubing can be decreased without a sacrifice in strength, producing decidedly lighter tube sets. For the cyclist there are 2 main benefits. The first is obvious, the frame will be lighter. The second is not so obvious until you actually ride the bike using the better quality tubing. The ride feel, the liveliness of the bike, and the ride comfort will all be noticeably improved. IMHO, this is the far greater benefit to the average cyclist, even more so than the weight loss.

So, what is the hierarchy in the world of steel tubing for bike frames? Here’s a generalized overview/ranking (low to high), using the popular Reynolds line to represent the higher quality steels:
- Hi Ten: very inexpensive, and very heavy, the lowest quality level of steel used for adult bicycle frames
- Cro-Mo: higher quality alloyed steel, lighter weight than Hi Ten
- Butted Cro-Mo: lighter still, probably the most widely used tubing for mid priced ($650- 750) steel fixed gear bikes. It comes in many, many names, and is usually what’s used in “proprietary” tube sets from many bike manufacturers, to give it a less generic sounding name.
- Reynolds 520 (note- all of the Reynolds tubing listed is butted): a step above the standard butted Cro-Mo, Reynolds entry level butted tube set
- Reynolds 631: the next level up, air hardened, with higher strength and thinner wall thicknesses available
- Reynolds 725: next level up, air hardened and heat treated, with thinner wall thicknesses available
- Reynolds 853: very high end steel, thinner still, and lighter
- Reynolds 953: a variant of stainless steel, this one rivals Ti and carbon fiber on weight, but with the ride of steel
- Columbus Spirit Niobium: similar in weight to the 953, the Spirit is one of the lightest steel tubes sets available

I guess the point of this is, when you’re looking at the various bikes out there (and this seems to be especially true of the fixed gear segment where a lot of steel is used), pay attention to the differences in the steel used for the frame. If it doesn’t say Reynolds, Columbus, True Temper, etc., then you can be very certain it is a medium grade of tubing at best. This does not imply that it is of low quality, but simply that the bike just will not be as light or ride as pleasureably as one made with a higher quality tubing. Also, note that even though the higher quality tubing is lighter, in most cases it’s actually stronger than the heavier steels. The only down side (besides cost, of course) is that the thinner walls will dent more easily. So, if your bike will be abused to some degree, it would be better to use the thicker walled tubing."

From the following web site - https://www.wabicycles.com/steel_tubing_info.html

Also, here is a good source for even more detailed information of the various steel alloys used in bike frames -
https://www.strongframes.com/more_stu...ls_tech/specs/

BillyD

You don't reserve the right to call names, pal. "Silly" is your opinion, we've been down this road before.

Besides, this thread is about STEEL, so let's keep the cf comments out if it's going to start age-old, useless conflicts.

Keep it STEEL, everybody, thank you.

BillyD

That bike is HOT AS HELL!

The DeRosa is no slouch either, but the Mercian is off the chain!

Fred B

I should have been more clear in my descriptions. Though the frames look vintage, they were brand new when my bikes were assembled. The Mercian is from a custom frame shop in England (https://www.merciancycles.co.uk/), and the De Rosa is a limited production off the shelf frame that I purchased through a dealer in Switzerland (https://www.bellatisport.com/shop/cat..._Classico.html). Both companies were great to work with and can also provide great prices on components for a bike build because of favorable monetary exchange rates. In addition, bike frames and parts shipped to the U.S. are not subject to the Value Added Tax (VAT) charged in Europe.

In case anyone is interested, the Mercian frame is made from a Reynolds 853 steel tubeset, and the De Rosa is made from a Dedacciai SAT 14.5 steel tubeset.

Bob Dopolina 

There was a thread from the hand built show a day or so ago. Link anyone?

mymojo

I hear there's this Italian fella named Ernesto that makes a pretty sweet steel frame.

surgeonstone

Sadly, Ernesto stopped making them a long, long time ago, another victim of the emerging global market and workfoce.

MetalPedaler

WoW! I had no idea that they were still making those bikes! LOVe the chrome lugs on the De Rosa! I like retro, myself- my next bike is going to be retro steel [Largely because I'm too cheap to buy modern steel!] - I have my good "modern bike" now ('97 Klein]...now I need a vintage steel!

Also, I enjoyed your explanation, above, of the joys of steel.

vinfix

Once you get above the hi-ten & generic cro-mo steel, you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference. I've owned many steel bikes with cromoly, tangalloy, 4130, 502, 725, etc. There are much greater factors in determining ride quality, particularly geometry, wheels, & tires, and using a carbon fork/seatpost. But I doubt you could get on otherwise identical bikes and tell the difference between 520 and 725 steel.

eippo1

Love how these threads always degenerate into CF fail threads. Lolz. There's been lots of good stuff already mentioned, but just check out the NAHBS website since it just ended and check out the stuff there. Lots of amazing builders. A newer builder that makes really nice, yet affordable frames is Dornbox. I will most likely be picking up a Cielo at some point because the Sportif is pretty much exactly what I want.

pdedes

If I were to get new steel, I would consider an Elephant. Put on an Enve fork, sram red, and boyd's new carbon clinchers.

Grambo

How about this bad boy ... Indy Fab SSR

https://www.ifbikes.com/OurBikes/Road...s_Steel_Road)/