Inertianinja

I had ordered a custom steel frame from a builder in Italy last year. It wasn't so much for custom geometry (though I think I need a bit shorter TT than standard) rather more about having a modern steel frame. It arrived and was too big - the reach was about 26mm longer than it should have been.

(btw I'm not sure what happened. I had sent my measurements and the details of the geometry of my size 56 Cervélo S2, but the frame came out more like a 60)

They told me today that they will build me a new frame. That's great news, but I want to get it right this time.

Usually they build based on measurements but I would rather not risk it.

I was thinking of just copying the geometry of a bike that I know will fit and asking him to match it. Seat tube angle, head tube angle, horizontal top tube, etc.

Does that sound like a good idea?

roadwarrior

The whole point of custom is to fit a rider that would generally not fit the "bell curve" production frames. In some cases they may use superior tubing, but that is not the case all the time. If you are buying, say a Serotta, yeah, you will spend upwards of three to eightish grand for the frame and fork.

With all due repsect, if your current frame fits, buy another stock frame/bike.

When I raced, indeed we raced on custom stuff. This required a trip to the sponsoring manufacturer's factory for careful measuring.

I'll give you another...Seven makes really nice bikes but why am I going to pay a premium for a from scratch built frame where I am using a measuring system you can download from the internet? You cannot imagine how many of these bikes we've seen that are incorrectly sized because they did it themselves. Merlin is another. Great bike. But if the rider does nto know what he or she is doing, it's a mess.

If you are getting a tailored suit, do you go to a tailor, or send in your coast and pant size? If you are doing that, buy off the rack.

I am really shocked that the builder is redoing the frame. If they did it to measurements you provided, that's your fault.

antmeeks

Yeah, having a hard time wrapping head around remote-ordering a 'custom fitted' anything.

OP, if it's 'more about having a modern steel frame', then why not go for a steel frame available commercially? Heck, why not go to any of the countless custom builders in NYC?

I think you just want a 'custom' bike that says 'Made In Italy'.

I think you've discovered the folly of this particular endeavor.

You are a cautionary tale.

roadwarrior

The Colnago Masters frame is a really nice steel bike. I think there may be an Italian flag on there somewhere.

Inertianinja

I don't understand the impulse to post replies like this. Does it make you guys feel smart to add insult to injury? I have valid explanations for everything you raised, but that's not the point of this thread.

Anyone have an actual answer to my question?

antmeeks

Do u know where u are?

Don't be fragile.

Wut? Where?

Yes, because what you're asking here is pointless question. (see below)

Did you ask the builder if he thinks it's a good idea to 'copy the geometry from another bike'?

If the builder sent you a bad size based on measurements you gave him, he either effed up & can't build or you didn't measure yourself correctly.

Neither of these scenarios lend themselves to a satisfying resolution remotely.

Tell your story here, it will be entertaining. But don't ask here. Not when you should be asking the builder for his recommendations.

Asking here will only result in reinforcing what u already know; You made a mistake.

Inertianinja

Why do you need to know if I asked the builder? Yes, i sent him an email first. Then I posted here.

If you don't know the answer to the question, There's gotta be something better for you to be doing than trolling this thread.

roadwarrior

Groan...

No. It is not a good idea. If (in my case) I had said that you would have asked why? Since I have been to a couple of rodeos, and I know a littel about bikes and custom work, I figured I'd answer them up front instead of a six page thread.

Sorry we didn't stroke your ego. You made a mistake.

Frankly, I am surprised the builder took your business. I ahd frames built when I lived in Belgium, for my use (I had to give team bikes back) and the measuring took a good hour.

mulveyr 

The problem is that your question has no reasonable answer: "I was thinking of just copying the geometry of a bike that I know will fit...Does that sound like a good idea?"

If we say no, it's not a good idea, you're pretty much left with either traveling overseas and working directly with the shop to get what you want, or run a high risk of the same thing happening again. You have never actually said whether the builder didn't duplicate the geometry you provided or not - where exactly did the problem come in?

If we say yes, it's a good idea, then what you're left with is a copy of the mass-production bike that you already own, except rendered in steel - all without knowing whether the builder would actually do that. ( And if he says no, what then? )

fa63

Assuming that the frame you will be copying the geometry from fits well, then why not?

While you are at it, and if you haven't already thought about this, I would spec slightly longer chainstays (415-420mm) than most carbon frames come with these days so you can squeeze some big tires in there. Nice steel frame + 28mm tires = heavenly ride.

Good luck.

rpenmanparker 

Your tailored suit analogy is quite appropriate. I have considerable experience with that business, and the exact same problem occurs there quite frequently for the same reasons. Self measurement is folly. Even measurement by an "agent", i.e. a bike shop (retail tailoring store) isn't very good. The guy who is building the frame (suit) has to do the measurement. Only he knows what he means by each measurement and how he intends to use it. But then there is interpretation of the measurements and translation to the builders philosophy of bike fit. Do you like to be stretched out? (I.e. do you like lots of room under the arms of your coat or snug?) And so on. The builder needs to see you on a bike fit stand to know what to build.

I have tried on many occasions to get a suit made by taking apart one that fit me perfectly and having each piece copied. Nope. No one will do it. All the tailors are confident they can fit you better by measuring you. They almost never can! I would be surprised if you can find a bike builder who is any different. I don't wear custom clothing any more, and I don't buy custom bikes any more. As already said, if you can really comfortably ride a bike off the rack (wear a suit of the rack), just do it. You will never do better than that with custom. The closest you can get is to trek (no pun) to the builders shop three or four times for measurement, discussion, fitting, etc. It ain't worth it. Much better to shop for a ready-made bike that conforms to your peculiarities like long TT, tall HT, etc.

Robert

sced

I remember how weird you were about this the first time.

26mm = 1.02 inches. Get a new post and or stem and ride the one you got and stop inflicting yourself on those poor folks in Italy.

It's like the guy that got the custom Erikson.

antmeeks

Surely you can find a more creative way to be denigratory than trotting out the old & tired 'troll' label.

Your obvious redonkulousness is evident to more than just me, as you can now see from the other responses.

I'm sure there will be more butt-hurt to follow.

mymojo

Two questions:

1) How did the above happen?

2) What do you see as the advantage to having a custom frame built to the exact measurements of the frame you already have?

antmeeks

Oh I can answer this:

Destiny.

Frame says 'Made In Italy'. Basking in warm afterglow of awe & jealousy from others at group rides.

rpenmanparker 

Come on folks. People have been saying that they want a frame from this builder or that builder forever. Sure it is vanity, but without vanity there would be no high end bike market in the first place. Let's cut OP some slack on that point at least. You don't have to agree, but at least recognize the broad appeal of the exotic custom frame idea. With that perspective there isn't really any reason to not send current bike measurements to the builder. If he will accept them as actual tube angles and lengths, etc., then go for it. Just be sure, OP, that you are absolutely precise in your nomenclature: things like center to center or top for the seat tube, and what does top mean, top of the top tube, top of the lug, top of the seat tube itself? Horizontal or sloped top tube. Tube measurements actual or effective? And so on. It is a mine field.

datlas 

Tough call.

My personal feeling is that if you are getting a custom frame, especially if it's your first, you should meet the framebuilder in person to get measured and discuss your riding style and goals.

So I generally suggest someone looking for a custom frame to pick a builder that is local.

Consider it a life lesson.

sced

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNkpIDBtC2c

Nachoman

Or maybe the frame maker did.

antmeeks

I don't really know what the OP's reason is for this exercise because he hasn't provided a real reason other than a 'modern steel frame'; Which doesn't make sense because modern, custom, high-quality steel frame builders are available to him locally.

So the next logical jump is vanity.

Yes, we all desire uncommon, exotic things. It's differentiation, a sign of success, superiority, etc. I can appreciate that because I'm no different. If the OP had just admitted that, he'd probably be getting more respect.

But I think that's the real rub here, isn't it? It's extremely difficult to effectively interpret & communicate something that requires such precision, when separated by a vast distance (and apparently only communicating via email?) without something getting lost in translation.

It was just doomed from the start. And again, if the OP started with, "Hey guys, look... I really let my vanity eff me up here, I know... I've since talked to the builder and he has these recommendations... What do you guys think might be the best course of action?", then this thread might be entirely different.

Or maybe not. This is BF you know

roadwarrior

I'll say it slower...to send info to a "custom" builder who does a bike for you sight unseen is a mistake.

Based on the copious amount of laughing I do reading some of the things that appear out here, I'm siding with the builder. Especially in the fit arena.

roadwarrior

Tip/info, whatever...there are shops in Europe (the one in Belgium I used is an example) where they sell bikes and also make frames. Do not equate made from scratch as all "high end". You can get a frame made that is not thousands of dollars. Even in old money the frames I had made were not very expensive. I just wanted a couple of bikes that would fit for off season training.

It's old school stuff where shops made things. Not like now where half the shops can barely fix what they are selling.

unterhausen

this is false, it is very rare for a custom builder to see the customer in person. It makes sense to get the customer to sign off on the design prior to cutting tubes.

DaveWC

There's a disconnect here. On the threads extolling the virtues of custom builds vs. buying an expensive bike off the rack people like me would say that they don't consider a custom bike because there are no custom builders close enough to visit. I am told that that's silly and that you needn't visit a custom bike builder as they know what they're doing and all that is required is to send in your physical dimensions. Here's a build gone wrong & suddenly it's silly to expect a custom builder to build a bike without personally seeing the customer.

antmeeks

Whoever told you that is trying to justify/convince themselves of something.