Silvestru

Heya!

Just bought this bike from a guy who hasn't been using it for a few years. He asked 50 euro.

The equipment can be identified easily but I don't know from where to start on the frame.
Besides the Campagnolo fork and rear dropouts...nothing. Btw, the fork seems to have paint over chrome.

Was the equipment original to the frame or was it replaced in time?


Thank you in advance!

Silvestru

juvela

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Frame -

the "pencil" seat stay treatment is suggestive of 1950's or early 1960's

appears most recent colour was white

reddish paint bits likely primer

chainstays exhibit black pinstriping, perhaps this was in other spots as well at one time...

how does seat tube transfer read?

domed ends of taper tubes a helpful clue

wonder if W/B mount might be an add-on...

there appears to be the ghost image of a rectangular transfer at the top of the seat tube, just below the lug
wonder if it may have been a tubing transfer

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Fittings -

only obvious original fitting is headset

balance all appears later

a European frame would not have come with Nippon fittings at this epoch and they are all about fifteen years too late for frame in any case

the second generation 3TTT Record stem did not launch until 1974 - too late for frame

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Thank you for the fine job with the photos.

One spot not shown is the bottom bracket shell.

Shell employed might be a helpful clue toward and identity for frame.

Since lugs are BOCAMA shell may be as well...

Have you located a serial number anywhere?

Its placement and format might be a valuable bit of information.

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My guess for a national origin would be CH

Suspect you will find frame to be of metric dimension throughout

As ever in these matters we need to hear from Detective Chief Inspector @MauriceMoss

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juvela

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One possible marque might be that of Cilo.

Do not wish to assert an ID, simply a line of investigation you may wish to explore...

Note the similarity of the seat stay treatment on this early 1960's frame to yours -




This picture shows a housing stop and guide treatment on the same frame.

It resembles the chainstay stop arrangement of your cycle -




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Should you wish to explore the possibility of CH-ness for your frame-of-mystery a good beginning spot is here -

Swiss Bicycles | A website about Swiss Bicycles

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The lug pattern employed to construct your frame is BOCAMA Professional.

Cilo make use of this pattern well into the 1970's.


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juvela

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Cilo Hugo Koblet of 1952 -





Cilo ca. 1979

Silvestru

Hello,

Thanks for letting me know about the BB serial number. I took a photo but apparently I did not upload it.
Regarding the seat post, I think it reads Italmanubri 26.4. Since it has quite some marks and it's hard to tell, I don't know if there's something else stamped on it.

juvela

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Thank you for the additional image.

Bottom bracket shell is indeed BOCAMA. Fits right in the the cycle's BOCAMA Professional lugset. In this BOCAMA catalogue page it is shown paired with the Super Professional lug set:



Serial placement and format is consistent with a Cilo identity.

Here it can be seen on an early 1960's Cilo machine -


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Note on pillar size and tubing -

if you were to gently prise apart the seat binder ears and then clean up the opening in the top of the seat tube with sandpaper/file you will likely find size to be 26.6mm. This is the size for metric dimension Reynolds 531 DB tubeset.

A nice frame well worth refinishing if you are of a mind to do so. Or you could just ride it as is. A new paint job will not make it ride any nicer.

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T-Mar

The drive side Campagnolo dropout doesn't have the spring mounting hole for the Campagnolo Sport derailleur that I would expect on a 1950s to 1960s model. Consequently, it may be 1970s and the water bottle bosses may be OEM.

I agree that the stay cap treatment is reminiscent of Cilo. The marque did utilize a Swiss threaded fixed cup, so the markings on it could boost confidence in at least the nationality.

A 26.4mm post could be a high grade, butted, metric tubeset or a good, plain gauge, imperial tubeset. To know which would require the outer diameter of the seat tube.

juvela

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Thanks T-Mar.

Had been assuming shell to be french threaded as the one quality Cilo I had worked on was a friend's Sprint X model from the early seventies which came through with a french shell. Had been imported by Bass Sports of Colorado.

Then got to thinking that whoever fitted the present Sakae Ringyo Royal chainset did so with Tange bottom bracket fittings. I know Tange and Sugino offer Swiss cups but perhaps Sakae doth not...

Am thinking bicycle probably left works as a one down from the top sort of model due to the headset. It may have worn a Verot chainset ex-works...

Will be interested so see what information comes forth as Silvestru has opportunity to work with it.


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rustystrings61 

26.4 mm seatpost is typical of metric gauge Reynolds 531 1.0-.7-1.0 tubes as used in French production bikes such as Peugeot PX-10 and Gitane Tour de France. 26.6 mm turns up in metric gauge Swiss Allegros, perhaps indicating a .9-.6-.9 tubing.

And I think it's a Cilo, fwiw.

T-Mar

Perhaps they came in both standards? I was considering a used, early 1970s Cilo and distinctly remember checking and seeing the 35 x 1 G(auche) stamping on the Campagnolo fixed cup. That ended up being the deal killer because the BB felt very rough and and I didn't want to go down the time consuming and expensive path of sourcing Campagnolo Swiss fixed cups.

T-Mar

However, it's also the typical post size for a plain gauge, imperial, Reynolds 531 seat tube. So, while I'm also leaning towards a Cilo with metric 531DB, I wouldn't rule out plain gauge, imperial Reynolds 531 or equivalent.

juvela

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Yes, would think it well possible that the company employed both standards.

Of the french makers who employed swiss the three I can think of, Motobecane, Peugeot and Manufrance, all built cycles of both threads.


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zukahn1 

I'm thinking its plain guage 531 seat and stays with DB main tubes which was fairly common on nicer 60's and 70s framesets.

T-Mar

Reynolds didn't offer butted stays and fork blades. All the Reynolds 531 double butted tubesets came with plain gauge stays and forks, though Reynolds termed the forks "taper gauge". The stay and blade options offered in the plain gauge and double butted Reynolds 531 tubesets were the same. The wording on the standard tubing decal for the double butted Reynolds 531 tubeset caused enough confusion among consumers that Schwinn had Reynolds supply a re-worded decal to reduce misinterpretation. "butted tubes, forks & stays" became "fork blades, stays & double butted frame tubes" in an attempt to emphasize that the fork blades and stays were not butted.

Edit: Here's a detail from a 1974 USA market advertisement showing the standard decal (right) and the revised Schwinn decal (left). It's the exact same tubeset but two different decals.