HPL

Waiting on 60's era parts for this 60's frame. Only exception (if possible) will be a modern sealed bearing BB.

juvela

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Do you have some information which yielded you this date?

AFAIK this lug pattern did not launch until about 1975, then there are the water bottle braze-ons...

Would appreciate a better view of seat stay treatment. At first I thought maybe the seat lug incorporated sockets for the end of the seat stays as seen on Jawa/Rapido/Pioneer/Favorit, etc badges from Motokov Praha. Now am thinking, thanks to final image, that they are simply plugged and tacked.

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HPL

Juvela,

I agree with you on the possibility of the decade based on the braze-ons overall. I meant to put the "?" mark in the title, when I obtained the bike the year was based on the owners so-called knowledge of its history. So I've really only thought of it as an earlier frame that may have been a later 60's model. I do have a bike from the 60's with water bottle mounts (appear to be original) using nuts vice bolts from a French Cazenave (1965/1966, the original owner got it as a B-Day gift, but couldn't remember if he was 14 or 15 at the time); no braze-ons on any of my 50's frames (Lygie and Turci). As far as lugs, another of my least knowledgeable areas, I really have no idea as to year of introduction nor make. I will provide more photos regarding this frame. I don't know what the weight is nor the seat post diameter. So I'll try to provide that info with the next post. I don't even know what years Helter was producing frames so that info might also help to narrow things down a bit.

MauriceMoss

Can’t speak to the actual identity of the frame (it very well could match the decals) or exact age, but those decals indicate Cicli Welter (not Helter), a company that was based in Pontecurone near Alessandria and had some racing success in the late 1940s:

HPL

Thanks for that! I had heard of that marque but I couldn't see the forest for the trees with the script. Can't make out the DT decal so was more going on the previous owners word. Do you happen to know when they stopped making frames? I'll post a better headbadge photo for reference sake.

juvela

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Thanks so much Maurice!

Hittin' 'em clear out the ballpark, just like always.

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HPL -

Thank you for the response and additional information.

Was the Cazenave marked "Sam Benotto Cazenave" or simply "Cazenave?"


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HPL

Juvela, I will check to make certain, but I believe it is just CAZENAVE. I picked it up from the original owner a couple years ago for $60 (I think he sold for his age; glad he wasn't 120 years old!), and I've yet to do an ounce of work on it except to oil up all fasteners, derailleurs, pretty much anything steel (the bike whole bike except the "Alfa" brakeset). Not a lightweight!

juvela

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Alfa arrestor set is suggestive of an Iberian origin.

There is a Frankish marque called Sam Benotto Cazenave.

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MauriceMoss

That’s a good question. Welter started out in (I think) in 1945. Classic Rendezvous shows the brand as being owned at some point by Garlatti (and this info is repeated on BF in a few places) but I’ve not been able to confirm this with Italian sources.

I’d say that their early bikes (40s/50s) looked higher end than the stuff that came later.

The brand still exists but it looks like only kids and city bikes are sold under the Welter brand. The only place that sells them seems to be bici.it, which is owned by the Sala brothers of Macherio (Monza e Brianza). Maybe they own the rights to the name?


Kind of sad looking when compared to their bikes of the 40s and 50s:

juvela

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From reading about Welter - Garlatti in the past I seem to recall a Tedescan connection in there somewhere...

Maurice is sure to know the full scoop!


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HPL

I had also thought that the brakes were from Spain, which seemed odd for that frame if indeed of French origin with all other components French (Huret, Atom, Durax) . The badging is Cazenave only with "BCM" stamped into the lower front of the headtube and "RGF" stamped into the top left of BB shell.

HPL

I'd have to agree on the fact that it's probably sold in name only and not actually manufactured by Welter considering the way of most marques have gone in the last couple decades. I conversed directly with some earlier makers (Berardi, Ronchini), but they're not manufacturing anymore; just selling and servicing other makes and acting as a general bike shop. Although, I was lucky to get some OE Ronchini decals from their shop at a very reasonable price; so much so that I actually got a couple sets in the event of a screw-up (and they threw in a couple of shop decals to give that authentic done in Italy effect). I wonder if Welter still exists in that manner today; might get some decals from them!