New aluminum frame creaking
08-05-19, 02:13 PM
#1
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Thread Starter
New aluminum frame creaking
In June, we bought our first brand new tandem from one of the top tandem builders - an aluminum framed, travel tandem, with 2x11 speed Ultegra derailleurs and compact crank. We immediately had a problem with chain drops when shifting from the small to the large chain ring (?!). We took it back to the dealer twice, finally telling them we did not want the bike back unless they could diagnose and fix the problem. A week later - GOOD NEWS! They rode the bike and confirmed the problem, and fixed it by replacing third-party chain rings with Shimano rings, matching the rest of the drive train. Got the bike back, and the shifting is perfect!
However, the bike now creaks like crazy with the sound seeming to come from the captain's seat-tube area. Creaking increases with bumpy pavement and hard pedaling. But the bike still creaks both when coasting and when I stand and pedal. I have removed and reinstalled the seatpost (making sure that the collar is properly seated), saddle and stoker's stem to make sure everything is at the correct torque. That did not eliminate the creaking. We are a very small tandem team, much lighter than the dealer and his chief mechanic who test rode it to diagnose the shifting problem. But I can't imagine a few test rides by a heavier team had any effect on a new, well-designed frame. Certainly, there are no visible cracks in the frame. This is a travel tandem, so my next move is to take it apart and put it back together.
Any ideas what typically causes creaks in an aluminum frame or any frame?
However, the bike now creaks like crazy with the sound seeming to come from the captain's seat-tube area. Creaking increases with bumpy pavement and hard pedaling. But the bike still creaks both when coasting and when I stand and pedal. I have removed and reinstalled the seatpost (making sure that the collar is properly seated), saddle and stoker's stem to make sure everything is at the correct torque. That did not eliminate the creaking. We are a very small tandem team, much lighter than the dealer and his chief mechanic who test rode it to diagnose the shifting problem. But I can't imagine a few test rides by a heavier team had any effect on a new, well-designed frame. Certainly, there are no visible cracks in the frame. This is a travel tandem, so my next move is to take it apart and put it back together.
Any ideas what typically causes creaks in an aluminum frame or any frame?
08-05-19, 04:05 PM
#2
Clipless in Coeur d'Alene
Squeak location can be deceiving. But since it also occurs when not pedaling...
Sometimes the headset.
- For this the shop should ensure the headtube is faced (machined 100% flat and square top-bottom, all paint removed).
Sometimes the fork steerer where the top headset bearing collar grabs the steerer.
- grease or various no-squeak products such as copper grease. Did I mention grease?
Moving back a bit to the S&S couplers (or whatever your travel tandem has).
- There should be a small tube of S&S silicone grease that came with your tandem. apply this to the coupler threads and in your case with a squeak chase, apply to the coupler teeth as well.
- DO THIS AT YOUR OWN RISK ->
There is the potential that the coupler/frame tube interface is not quite right and incurring a little movement at the joints somewhere. This is harder to chase down, but may be able to do so by decoupling your tandem and reattaching just either the top tube OR bottom tube slightly clocked to one side.
To assist in visualizing any coupler movement, apply some masking (or painters tape) at the coupler/tube connections and draw a pen line across the connection area. Then with one end of the frame braced (in a bike workstand for example), hold the other part of the attached frame and carefully wrench/twist the frame from side to side. This exercise is to see if there is any play or sounds coming from the attached couplers. Also take note of any misalignment of the tape/pen marks, which would indicate the coupler is moving at the joint with the frame tube.
- DO THIS AT YOUR OWN RISK -
Sometimes the headset.
- For this the shop should ensure the headtube is faced (machined 100% flat and square top-bottom, all paint removed).
Sometimes the fork steerer where the top headset bearing collar grabs the steerer.
- grease or various no-squeak products such as copper grease. Did I mention grease?
Moving back a bit to the S&S couplers (or whatever your travel tandem has).
- There should be a small tube of S&S silicone grease that came with your tandem. apply this to the coupler threads and in your case with a squeak chase, apply to the coupler teeth as well.
- DO THIS AT YOUR OWN RISK ->
There is the potential that the coupler/frame tube interface is not quite right and incurring a little movement at the joints somewhere. This is harder to chase down, but may be able to do so by decoupling your tandem and reattaching just either the top tube OR bottom tube slightly clocked to one side.
To assist in visualizing any coupler movement, apply some masking (or painters tape) at the coupler/tube connections and draw a pen line across the connection area. Then with one end of the frame braced (in a bike workstand for example), hold the other part of the attached frame and carefully wrench/twist the frame from side to side. This exercise is to see if there is any play or sounds coming from the attached couplers. Also take note of any misalignment of the tape/pen marks, which would indicate the coupler is moving at the joint with the frame tube.
- DO THIS AT YOUR OWN RISK -
Last edited by twocicle; 09-11-19 at 02:10 PM.
08-05-19, 05:08 PM
#3
just another gosling
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They replaced the chainrings. Maybe they messed with the BB also. Check chainring bolts, stoker's BB.
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08-06-19, 09:52 AM
#4
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We just recently chased down a squeak on our tandem. With it squeaking both when pedaling and not it shouldn't be the chain-ring bolts but I would ask if the used lock tight when the installed the new rings I would assume they have. Moving on up the bike re-greasing the seat posts and the stoker stem can help also if the stoker bars are carbon fiber some carbon paste might be needed. We hit all the areas, re-greasing the pedal threads, the seat post and stoker stem and tightening the front quick release found our squeak. I hope you find yours and are able to enjoy your new bike to it's fullest.
08-06-19, 10:50 AM
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Does it have to be the silicone grease? I used regular solid grease two weeks ago and it seems to have improved the overall creaking of our tandem. I still need to chase down bottom bracket creaks...
Squeak location can be deceiving. But since it also occurs when not pedaling...
Sometimes the headset.
- For this the shop should ensure the headtube is faced (machined 100% flat and square top-bottom, all paint removed).
Sometimes the fork steerer where the top headset bearing collar grabs the steerer.
- grease or various no-squeak products such as copper grease. Did I mention grease?
Moving back a bit to the S&S couplers (or whatever your travel tandem has).
- There should be a small tube of S&S silicone grease that came with your tandem. apply this to the coupler threads and in your case with a squeak chase, apply to the coupler teeth as well.
- DO THIS AT YOUR OWN RISK -
There is the potential that the coupler/frame tube interface is not quite right and incurring a little movement at the joints somewhere.
This is harder to chase down, but may be able to do so by decoupling your tandem and reattaching just either the top tube OR bottom tube slightly clocked to one side. I have used this test to chase down coupler attachment issues and it worked very well to isolate the problem areas.
To assist in visualizing any coupler movement, apply some masking (or painters tape) at the coupler/tube connections and draw a pen line across the connection area. Then with one end of the frame braced (in a bike workstand for example), hold the other part of the attached frame and carefully wrench/twist the frame from side to side. This exercise is to see if there is any play or sounds coming from the attached couplers. Also take note of any misalignment of the tape/pen marks, which would indicate the coupler is moving at the joint with the frame tube.
- DO THIS AT YOUR OWN RISK -
- DO THIS AT YOUR OWN RISK -
Lastly, if it doesn't squeak when sitting stationary on the stoker seat and wrenching on the stoker bars.. just tell your stoker it must be her and then duck!
- DO THIS AT YOUR OWN RISK -
Sometimes the headset.
- For this the shop should ensure the headtube is faced (machined 100% flat and square top-bottom, all paint removed).
Sometimes the fork steerer where the top headset bearing collar grabs the steerer.
- grease or various no-squeak products such as copper grease. Did I mention grease?
Moving back a bit to the S&S couplers (or whatever your travel tandem has).
- There should be a small tube of S&S silicone grease that came with your tandem. apply this to the coupler threads and in your case with a squeak chase, apply to the coupler teeth as well.
- DO THIS AT YOUR OWN RISK -
There is the potential that the coupler/frame tube interface is not quite right and incurring a little movement at the joints somewhere.
This is harder to chase down, but may be able to do so by decoupling your tandem and reattaching just either the top tube OR bottom tube slightly clocked to one side. I have used this test to chase down coupler attachment issues and it worked very well to isolate the problem areas.
To assist in visualizing any coupler movement, apply some masking (or painters tape) at the coupler/tube connections and draw a pen line across the connection area. Then with one end of the frame braced (in a bike workstand for example), hold the other part of the attached frame and carefully wrench/twist the frame from side to side. This exercise is to see if there is any play or sounds coming from the attached couplers. Also take note of any misalignment of the tape/pen marks, which would indicate the coupler is moving at the joint with the frame tube.
- DO THIS AT YOUR OWN RISK -
- DO THIS AT YOUR OWN RISK -
Lastly, if it doesn't squeak when sitting stationary on the stoker seat and wrenching on the stoker bars.. just tell your stoker it must be her and then duck!
- DO THIS AT YOUR OWN RISK -
08-06-19, 11:29 AM
#6
Clipless in Coeur d'Alene
Sorry, my error. It should be Teflon grease, not Silicone used on S&S couplers, and specifically "Finish Line Extreme Fluoro Grease" is the only approved grease, period.
S and S Coupling User Guide
DuPont Teflon Bearing Grease
"The DuPont Teflon® branded grease, that we previously sold, was discontinued by DuPont and our inventory is depleted. We now carry Finish Line Extreme Fluoro which is made specifically for us by Finish Line from the same 100% pure DuPont fluorinated ingredients used to make DuPont Teflon® Bearing Grease. In our tests, Extreme Fluoro performs as well as DuPont Teflon® Bearing Grease and for our purpose, we consider it to be equivalent to DuPont Teflon® Bearing Grease. Teflon ® is a registered trademark of E. I. du Pont de Nemours and Company "
https://www.amazon.com/Finish-Line-E...99748256&psc=1
S and S Coupling User Guide
DuPont Teflon Bearing Grease
"The DuPont Teflon® branded grease, that we previously sold, was discontinued by DuPont and our inventory is depleted. We now carry Finish Line Extreme Fluoro which is made specifically for us by Finish Line from the same 100% pure DuPont fluorinated ingredients used to make DuPont Teflon® Bearing Grease. In our tests, Extreme Fluoro performs as well as DuPont Teflon® Bearing Grease and for our purpose, we consider it to be equivalent to DuPont Teflon® Bearing Grease. Teflon ® is a registered trademark of E. I. du Pont de Nemours and Company "
https://www.amazon.com/Finish-Line-E...99748256&psc=1
Last edited by twocicle; 08-06-19 at 11:34 AM.
08-06-19, 12:16 PM
#7
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Creaks can emanate from almost anywhere on the bike. Anything with metal-metal contact can be the culprit. And virtually all metal-metal contact should be treated with grease. There are a few exceptions, such as disk rotor mount bolts and cantilever post bolts. But these are few. Usually if threads are involved, grease should be used. I understand the "new and improved" larger diameter BB press-fit shells are major creaking culprits. Chris King recently expressed his displeasure with this design.
You mentioned re-torquing stem and bar bolts. Doing this will probably NOT address creaks. Stems, steerers, bars, etc. should be greased with waterproof grease. Carbon/metal interfaces should also be greased. Grease will not degrade ANY carbon components you'll use on your bike. I wouldn't use threadlocker on chainring bolts but good old reliable grease.
Seat post clamp, rails and bolts need ample grease.
I chased down a creak by reinstalling the BB, chainring bolts, pedal threads and all the individual pedal cage bolts with ample grease to no avail. It was the derailleur hanger!
Even water bottle cage bolts have been known to creak, so check those as well.
It's a common misconception that "grease" (or any lubrication) will cause a fastener to loosen. This is untrue. In fact, the opposite is true. Lubrication allows you to fasten the bolt or threads in question properly. Going without lubrication can cause so much thread friction, you cannot achieve proper torque and you damage the metal. You also get corrosion and hydrostatic welding problems when you forgo grease.
Even square taper cranks require grease. And this is based on the very knowledgeable word of the late and great Jobst Brandt. (Look it up, it's a good read.) I knew a guy who REFUSED to believe crank tapers should be greased. In fact, he was SO paranoid about getting ANY form of oil or lube on his crank tapers, he degreased them with acetone when assembling. Let's just say that his bike creaked like a banshee! It was rather humorous.
Good luck chasing down your creak. Let's hope it isn't the interface of two frame tubes that are creaking due to lack of complete weld or something. That's rare though.
You mentioned re-torquing stem and bar bolts. Doing this will probably NOT address creaks. Stems, steerers, bars, etc. should be greased with waterproof grease. Carbon/metal interfaces should also be greased. Grease will not degrade ANY carbon components you'll use on your bike. I wouldn't use threadlocker on chainring bolts but good old reliable grease.
Seat post clamp, rails and bolts need ample grease.
I chased down a creak by reinstalling the BB, chainring bolts, pedal threads and all the individual pedal cage bolts with ample grease to no avail. It was the derailleur hanger!
Even water bottle cage bolts have been known to creak, so check those as well.
It's a common misconception that "grease" (or any lubrication) will cause a fastener to loosen. This is untrue. In fact, the opposite is true. Lubrication allows you to fasten the bolt or threads in question properly. Going without lubrication can cause so much thread friction, you cannot achieve proper torque and you damage the metal. You also get corrosion and hydrostatic welding problems when you forgo grease.
Even square taper cranks require grease. And this is based on the very knowledgeable word of the late and great Jobst Brandt. (Look it up, it's a good read.) I knew a guy who REFUSED to believe crank tapers should be greased. In fact, he was SO paranoid about getting ANY form of oil or lube on his crank tapers, he degreased them with acetone when assembling. Let's just say that his bike creaked like a banshee! It was rather humorous.
Good luck chasing down your creak. Let's hope it isn't the interface of two frame tubes that are creaking due to lack of complete weld or something. That's rare though.
08-06-19, 11:06 PM
#8
TKramer
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A brand new Santana Sovereign we had creaked/clicked from day one. It would only happen when pedaling hard to accelerate but then would go away as torque on the cranks leveled out. So, it was never continuous and bothersome like many bike noises can be (side note: a tubeless tire bead squeaking against a carbon rim when sealant is low will drive you batty). I could not for the life of me figure out what it was for almost a year, trying all the usual remedies during routine maintenance. I gave up and used the sound as a diagnostic indicator that I still had plenty of strength in me well into long rides - poor man's power meter.
Then one day I was working on the bike and mounting up on it to position a new saddle and the click occurred as I was stepping on the left pedal to swing a leg over and bracing against a wall. "Hey, I can now repeat it in a controlled environment!". Lots of trial and error and listening with one of those mechanic's stethoscopes and the culprit was a cable stop on the down tube. It turns out they are just riveted on instead of brazed and there was enough flex at the head tube joint so that the stop shifted and made the noise.
One last story that's not such a TL,DR: Simply adding a washer to a pedal's threaded stud has cured a clicking sound on one occasion.
08-07-19, 05:54 AM
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+1 for the BB itself. We also have an Al frame and had a squeak that we chased for 2 seasons, it would come & go, particularly when things heated up after riding, never on a stand, it turned out to be the stoker BB wasn't tight. We had checked the captains BB a year earlier because the creak sounded like it was in the front, you never know. Check & re-tighen everything...
08-07-19, 11:10 AM
#10
Clipless in Coeur d'Alene
Creaking increases with bumpy pavement and hard pedaling. But the bike still creaks both when coasting and when I stand and pedal.
Funny thing about creaks, the sound is difficult to determine where the source is while riding. It's like the sound resonates without a focal point.
Other than the frame, couplers, and headset verification checks I suggested above, there is one more creak that can occur... fork QR dropouts / wheel interface. I had an especially touchy set of wheels that needed to be very tightly clamped in a fork, otherwise the front wheel caused an obnoxious creak. This was due to the hub end caps being completely smooth, without knurling. At times I swore the sound was coming from my pedals, or cranks, or BB, or headset... just could not tell by any amount of listening while riding, just trial and error working through all the bike bits.
Last edited by twocicle; 08-07-19 at 02:28 PM.
08-07-19, 12:04 PM
#11
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Exactly! We've been riding a new Co-Motion Carrera and, for the life of me, I cannot find a creaking noise that's been going on for about two months now. It hasn't been enough of an annoyance for me to check anything and everything, but I suspect it's coming from the BB and/or the cranks, especially when considering that it does increase with harder pedaling. Still, one of these days I need to take some time to nail it down, for our other tandem has been noise-free since we purchased it nine years ago.
08-07-19, 02:33 PM
#12
Clipless in Coeur d'Alene
Exactly! We've been riding a new Co-Motion Carrera and, for the life of me, I cannot find a creaking noise that's been going on for about two months now. It hasn't been enough of an annoyance for me to check anything and everything, but I suspect it's coming from the BB and/or the cranks, especially when considering that it does increase with harder pedaling. Still, one of these days I need to take some time to nail it down, for our other tandem has been noise-free since we purchased it nine years ago.
