Group Ride Etiquette or ...
08-13-12, 12:05 PM
#51
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I am assuming you are all adults, so why not go over and talk to him? If that doesn't work, as many have suggested abuse him until he gets dropped or make sure he never wins that sprint again.
08-13-12, 12:17 PM
#52
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I don't understand why it matters either way (to pull or not to pull, to sprint or not to sprint) in a recreational group ride.
I also wonder why he doesn't pull? Don't you have a pretty standard rotation where the lead rider eases off to the left and drops back to last position, and everyone rotates up one position? How can someone not pull at all? I understand short pulls (I do that when I'm tired or weak), but if you're in the paceline how can you not end up at the front from time to time?
That said, I would try to outsprint him just for fun. I'd try to plan ahead and somehow get him to the front with about 1-2 mile to go, then with about 1/2 mile to go, I'd try to ramp it up and outsprint him. But just for fun, not to teach him a lesson.... because no lessons needed in this sort of ride, imho.
I also wonder why he doesn't pull? Don't you have a pretty standard rotation where the lead rider eases off to the left and drops back to last position, and everyone rotates up one position? How can someone not pull at all? I understand short pulls (I do that when I'm tired or weak), but if you're in the paceline how can you not end up at the front from time to time?
That said, I would try to outsprint him just for fun. I'd try to plan ahead and somehow get him to the front with about 1-2 mile to go, then with about 1/2 mile to go, I'd try to ramp it up and outsprint him. But just for fun, not to teach him a lesson.... because no lessons needed in this sort of ride, imho.
08-13-12, 12:21 PM
#53
Senior Member
Something's not computing. It's not a race, so we are all worried about someone who sprints at the end of this not-a-race? You ride the way you want. He ride the way he wants. Everyone's happy; save the passive-aggressive mojo for a real race.
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"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
08-13-12, 12:30 PM
#54
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There is such a beast as a "sprinter". You don't really hear about these folks in the general recreational rider's circles, but they really do exist in the wild. You don't see them much because they like to hid and they are shy unless hunting. Sprinters are different than other cyclists because they want to go fast. I mean, really fast. They want to do this so much, they don't ever really go sort-of-fast, like all the other cyclists. They let the other cyclists go sort-of-fast, and save their energy to go really fast.
If the OP is intent on the passive-aggressive, he should just take lots of pulls like he normally does, do lots of sort-of-fast stuff, then sit on his wheel on his finish sprint and come around him into the parking lot. Nothing shames a sprinter like having a well-tired sort-of-fast rider come around in a sprint. If he's a real sprinter, you won't be able to come around. Then you both have fun. He gets to go fast, and you get to know you kept to his wheel even though you were going sort-of-fast the entire ride. He knows he's faster than you, and you know you are tougher than him. Everyone wins.
If the OP is intent on the passive-aggressive, he should just take lots of pulls like he normally does, do lots of sort-of-fast stuff, then sit on his wheel on his finish sprint and come around him into the parking lot. Nothing shames a sprinter like having a well-tired sort-of-fast rider come around in a sprint. If he's a real sprinter, you won't be able to come around. Then you both have fun. He gets to go fast, and you get to know you kept to his wheel even though you were going sort-of-fast the entire ride. He knows he's faster than you, and you know you are tougher than him. Everyone wins.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Last edited by Brian Ratliff; 08-13-12 at 12:35 PM.
08-13-12, 12:35 PM
#55
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Eh, dial it up to 400W and drope the hamer on him. Isn't that always the answer around here?
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08-13-12, 12:37 PM
#56
Senior Member
A sprinter sits in your back pocket while you dial it up. You spend your 400W and he spends his 250.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
08-13-12, 12:48 PM
#57
Portland Fred
Because he knows he's weaker than the others and wouldn't keep up if actually did any work. I see no point in dropping him unless he needs an attitude adjustment.
08-13-12, 01:00 PM
#58
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What would you talk to him about? The problem isn't the sprinter but other's perceived slight at being beaten on a meaningless group ride.
There is nothing intrinsically wrong with finishing ahead of someone on a ride. For this group it sounds like no one really cares so I can't imagine they're going to want to put in the effort required to execute elaborate strategies to drop a sprinter.
There is nothing intrinsically wrong with finishing ahead of someone on a ride. For this group it sounds like no one really cares so I can't imagine they're going to want to put in the effort required to execute elaborate strategies to drop a sprinter.
08-13-12, 01:15 PM
#59
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In a polite way, I would ask why he/she is not taking his/her share of the pulls. He/she might have a perfectly good reason (probably not). There is a also a chance that this particular individual may not be aware that part of riding in a group means taking your share of the pulls, unless the group has made it specifically clear that it doesn't matter who is pulling and/or how long they are pulling for. I have been in group rides where me being in the back and/or not taking long pulls makes things better for everyone, because I wouldn't be able to sustain the pace and would disrupt the group's rhythm. But then that doesn't culminate in me sprinting past everyone at the end (I am usually trying to hang on for dear life in those moments).
08-13-12, 01:17 PM
#60
Senior Member
You'll understand this post then.
https://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.co...s-on-road.html
Once you start racing then most group ride "competitions" become meaningless. The group rides with Pro - Cat 1-2-3 racers, those are still a bit meaningful but at that point it's pretty easy to figure out where one belongs
https://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.co...s-on-road.html
Once you start racing then most group ride "competitions" become meaningless. The group rides with Pro - Cat 1-2-3 racers, those are still a bit meaningful but at that point it's pretty easy to figure out where one belongs
08-13-12, 01:43 PM
#61
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In a polite way, I would ask why he/she is not taking his/her share of the pulls. He/she might have a perfectly good reason (probably not). There is a also a chance that this particular individual may not be aware that part of riding in a group means taking your share of the pulls, unless the group has made it specifically clear that it doesn't matter who is pulling and/or how long they are pulling for. I have been in group rides where me being in the back and/or not taking long pulls makes things better for everyone, because I wouldn't be able to sustain the pace and would disrupt the group's rhythm. But then that doesn't culminate in me sprinting past everyone at the end (I am usually trying to hang on for dear life in those moments).
There are a couple of 5 min false flats that I like to use as VO2Max intervals. I'll pull steadily for the full duration and have nothing left at the end. There's usually one or two guys who'll sprint the last 100m but it doesn't bother me as it's not a race.
08-13-12, 01:49 PM
#62
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I don't see why anyone needs a reason not to pull. The benefit of a group ride is that it let's a group of people with disparate abilities or energy ride together. I sometimes like to kill myself on a ride, whereas other times I may want to just sit in.
There are a couple of 5 min false flats that I like to use as VO2Max intervals. I'll pull steadily for the full duration and have nothing left at the end. There's usually one or two guys who'll sprint the last 100m but it doesn't bother me as it's not a race.
There are a couple of 5 min false flats that I like to use as VO2Max intervals. I'll pull steadily for the full duration and have nothing left at the end. There's usually one or two guys who'll sprint the last 100m but it doesn't bother me as it's not a race.
It is one thing to be a weaker rider and need to wheel suck just to keep up. It is quite another to wheel suck and then sprint at the end after everyone else did all the work. It is a very doosh move.
08-13-12, 01:53 PM
#63
Senior Member
This is what I don't get. Are we somehow disturbed that someone hits the finish line of a not-a-race first? Just ride. If the dude wants to sprint and not pull, as long as he isn't doing any aggressive not-pulling, then just let him be. Doosh moves would be if he comes to second wheel and pulls off at the same time as the guy in first wheel, disturbing the flow, or if he is cutting people's wheels or something to gain advantage in his sprints. The OP didn't even notice this guy was there until his friend spoke up; hard to be a doosh if nobody really notices.
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Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
08-13-12, 01:54 PM
#64
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the way you should look at it is the more you pull, the more fitness you are gaining on every training ride.
I could see how it could get annoying though, but hey some people are annoying.
I could see how it could get annoying though, but hey some people are annoying.
08-13-12, 01:58 PM
#65
Senior Member
You are probably right. But honestly, I'll usually pull for a 1/3 to 1/2 of a 30 mile ride, and most folks are willing to let me. Once again, I know this is childish and in all honesty, I really don't care THAT much. It just got under my skin after my buddy pointed it out.
Maybe this BF therapy will help?
Maybe this BF therapy will help?
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Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
08-13-12, 02:13 PM
#66
Faster but still slow
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This is what I don't get. Are we somehow disturbed that someone hits the finish line of a not-a-race first? Just ride. If the dude wants to sprint and not pull, as long as he isn't doing any aggressive not-pulling, then just let him be. Doosh moves would be if he comes to second wheel and pulls off at the same time as the guy in first wheel, disturbing the flow, or if he is cutting people's wheels or something to gain advantage in his sprints. The OP didn't even notice this guy was there until his friend spoke up; hard to be a doosh if nobody really notices.
08-13-12, 02:18 PM
#67
Senior Member
Your second statement contradicts your first.
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Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
08-13-12, 02:30 PM
#68
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If they care, sprint, lose and complain... well then it's just whining and sour grapes.
08-13-12, 02:41 PM
#69
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As a former sprinter (in high school track, not cycling), I used to piss my high school cross country coaches off to no end because I would be chugging along slowly at the most of my endurance for those 2.9 or so miles and then suddenly find the energy to spring balls to the wall for the last 0.2 or so miles. No matter how tired I was or how hard of a time I had before that, I always had that sprint in my legs. Didn't always use it if I was incredibly slow and there was no one around because I didn't want my coaches to yell at me for saving something that I could have used earlier when it would have mattered, so I know how that guy feels (potentially anyway) of not having the endurance, but having a lot of power right at the end. Maybe it's all psychological, maybe it's a fast twitch vs slow twitch thing, but sprinting vs enduring are two different beasts to me. Something I could never explain to my coaches or teammates.
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08-13-12, 02:59 PM
#70
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When that behaviour happened on some of my group rides, the guy was punished by dropping him mercilessly afterwards.
08-13-12, 03:10 PM
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There is such a beast as a "sprinter". You don't really hear about these folks in the general recreational rider's circles, but they really do exist in the wild. You don't see them much because they like to hid and they are shy unless hunting. Sprinters are different than other cyclists because they want to go fast. I mean, really fast. They want to do this so much, they don't ever really go sort-of-fast, like all the other cyclists. They let the other cyclists go sort-of-fast, and save their energy to go really fast.
If the OP is intent on the passive-aggressive, he should just take lots of pulls like he normally does, do lots of sort-of-fast stuff, then sit on his wheel on his finish sprint and come around him into the parking lot. Nothing shames a sprinter like having a well-tired sort-of-fast rider come around in a sprint. If he's a real sprinter, you won't be able to come around. Then you both have fun. He gets to go fast, and you get to know you kept to his wheel even though you were going sort-of-fast the entire ride. He knows he's faster than you, and you know you are tougher than him. Everyone wins.
If the OP is intent on the passive-aggressive, he should just take lots of pulls like he normally does, do lots of sort-of-fast stuff, then sit on his wheel on his finish sprint and come around him into the parking lot. Nothing shames a sprinter like having a well-tired sort-of-fast rider come around in a sprint. If he's a real sprinter, you won't be able to come around. Then you both have fun. He gets to go fast, and you get to know you kept to his wheel even though you were going sort-of-fast the entire ride. He knows he's faster than you, and you know you are tougher than him. Everyone wins.
Totally agree.
1. It's not a race. Yes, there are perceived bragging rights, but everyones knows that mr. I never pull but can sprint the finish isn't going to necessarily be the overall strongest rider.
2. There are guys who really love to sprint, but can't pull or climb anywhere near as well. This guy may indeed be one of those guys who would like to pull hard at the front, but would simply get dumped shortly after he wore himself out on the pull.
3. Yes, it's not good form to do what that guy does, and he might be a full ****** intentionally doing it, but it's not worth getting your panties worked up over. If it's bothering you that much, do as advised above, and drop him on the first real climb you get to.
08-13-12, 03:20 PM
#72
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I hope you're not complaining about me. Yeah, I get pulled the entire time, but halfway up the first big hill you don't even see me again until Starbucks. 
08-13-12, 03:20 PM
#73
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In a polite way, I would ask why he/she is not taking his/her share of the pulls. He/she might have a perfectly good reason (probably not). There is a also a chance that this particular individual may not be aware that part of riding in a group means taking your share of the pulls, unless the group has made it specifically clear that it doesn't matter who is pulling and/or how long they are pulling for. I have been in group rides where me being in the back and/or not taking long pulls makes things better for everyone, because I wouldn't be able to sustain the pace and would disrupt the group's rhythm. But then that doesn't culminate in me sprinting past everyone at the end (I am usually trying to hang on for dear life in those moments).
It's a fair assessment in most cases in that if someone's not pulling, they're acknowledging that they're not strong enough to hold the pull in front.
Yes, I've done this quite a number of times myself while riding with some significantly stronger riders. At first I was totally embarassed and even apologized at the end of the ride for my lameness, but these guys were all very supportive (actually to my surprise since they were all competitive roadies in racing season who mostly knew each other but not me) and said they were actually impressed that the 'new guy' could hang on at all. Was good to see as carpediem posted above that the real racing guys out there don't really care about pseudoracing on training rides and were cool with helping drag the new guy (me) through a fast ride. This has happened to me about 3-4 times in the past few years where I joined group rides and pushed to a level that was definitely beyond my level of expertise, and every time it's worked out similarly, with some good camaraderie at the end, despite me being really worried that I'd get shouted at as that ****** in the back who couldn't pull his weight.
08-13-12, 03:39 PM
#74
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Again, no reason to have to pull in a group, unless you're in a pre-established group that has discussed the need to pull in advance.
It's a fair assessment in most cases in that if someone's not pulling, they're acknowledging that they're not strong enough to hold the pull in front.
Yes, I've done this quite a number of times myself while riding with some significantly stronger riders. At first I was totally embarassed and even apologized at the end of the ride for my lameness, but these guys were all very supportive (actually to my surprise since they were all competitive roadies in racing season who mostly knew each other but not me) and said they were actually impressed that the 'new guy' could hang on at all. Was good to see as carpediem posted above that the real racing guys out there don't really care about pseudoracing on training rides and were cool with helping drag the new guy (me) through a fast ride. This has happened to me about 3-4 times in the past few years where I joined group rides and pushed to a level that was definitely beyond my level of expertise, and every time it's worked out similarly, with some good camaraderie at the end, despite me being really worried that I'd get shouted at as that ****** in the back who couldn't pull his weight.
It's a fair assessment in most cases in that if someone's not pulling, they're acknowledging that they're not strong enough to hold the pull in front.
Yes, I've done this quite a number of times myself while riding with some significantly stronger riders. At first I was totally embarassed and even apologized at the end of the ride for my lameness, but these guys were all very supportive (actually to my surprise since they were all competitive roadies in racing season who mostly knew each other but not me) and said they were actually impressed that the 'new guy' could hang on at all. Was good to see as carpediem posted above that the real racing guys out there don't really care about pseudoracing on training rides and were cool with helping drag the new guy (me) through a fast ride. This has happened to me about 3-4 times in the past few years where I joined group rides and pushed to a level that was definitely beyond my level of expertise, and every time it's worked out similarly, with some good camaraderie at the end, despite me being really worried that I'd get shouted at as that ****** in the back who couldn't pull his weight.
And trust me, those fast group of riders you jumped in with probably wouldn't have been as nice to you if you sucked wheel until the end then tried to outsprint them at the end.
Anyways, I am done. Arguing over the internet is tiring...
08-13-12, 03:45 PM
#75
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