Cartridge BB for Avocet Triple?
#1
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Cartridge BB for Avocet Triple?
I'm looking for a 68mm cartridge bottom bracket to fit a Avocet triple crank set to a 126mm spaced bike. The previous franken bike it came off had a 121.5 Shimano BB and the engagement on the JIS spindle was a bit shallow. It was also being run as a double. Its new home is a bit of a basket case, and the bottom bracket threads are a little loose after being cross threaded and chased, so I realy want to go with an ISO cartridge Bottom Bracket. There's so much other stuff going on with this bike I cant see spending the money on a Phil Wood. Any other suggestions? I'm also looking for bolts and spacers to reinstall the granny ring, if any one has a source for those parts. Thanks.
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I assume you looked at Velobase and Sheldon Brown's pages to get the skinny on the correct lenght and offset?
I believe Avoet used a unique taperand any JI(S or ISO spindle may be a makeshift fit.
I believe Avoet used a unique taperand any JI(S or ISO spindle may be a makeshift fit.
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Anecdotal references put the original spindle leangth at 124mm. Longest ISO cartridge BB I've found so far are 115mm.
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I believe Avoet used a unique taperand any JI(S or ISO spindle may be a makeshift fit.
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#5
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Looks like a 119 is what you need, unless your Avocet is one of the ones with a weird taper. Unlikely since it kind of sort of fit on JIS apparently. How was the chainline with the 121 JIS? Was there room for the small chainring? Good idea to test fit to ISO before buying anything if you can. Vintage Campy taper was close to ISO but not the same thing exactly. There aren't always easy answers when it comes to BB compatibility. These below would have all been asymmetrical spindles.
Interesting that the weird taper ones are claimed to be the non USA models. I always thought the non USA ones were all marked Ofmega.
Interesting that the weird taper ones are claimed to be the non USA models. I always thought the non USA ones were all marked Ofmega.
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Avocet cranks were made by Ofmega, whose spindles had a smaller taper end. I've heard that they work with Campy spindles, but they may not fit far onto a JIS spindle. Good luck.
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Do you have a diagram to go with the numbers? What are values A, B and C? I'm wondering if I can get enough drive side extension with a 2 mm shim on a 115mm Campy bottom bracket. I didn't ride the original bike the crank was on. I bought it off a guy because "the gears don't work" and promptly took it apart. It was also missing the inner ring.
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https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07QG96JBS/
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There was another set of bolts and spacers that was supposed to work. I think it was a Campagnolo product, also obscure. I didn't book mark/ take notes of the the reference.
#10
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All this sure makes me want to hold on tight to my Triple Avocet crankset with matching BB! Don’t want to have to fudge with it, just want it to work.
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#11
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If that's a measured length, I'd trust that over what it says in Sutherlands 10 or 15 years after the fact.
bark-eater, I probably have a diagram somewhere, but A is the distance from the bearing race to the NDS end, B is the distance between the bearing races, and C is the distance from the drive side bearing race to the end of the spindle.
Avocet were compatible with Campy WRT chainring bolts and stuff. The early Sugino mighty was also interchangeable.
bark-eater, I probably have a diagram somewhere, but A is the distance from the bearing race to the NDS end, B is the distance between the bearing races, and C is the distance from the drive side bearing race to the end of the spindle.
Avocet were compatible with Campy WRT chainring bolts and stuff. The early Sugino mighty was also interchangeable.
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Sorry but I'm confused by this one.
Op had a 121.5 BB and "the engagement on the JIS spindle was abit shallow". Logically, shouldn't he need longer than 121.5mm to engage more??
JohnDThompson says Avocet triple spindle measures 124mm
Salamandrine says 119mm unless one with weird taper.
Posted Sutherlands chart shows triples at both 119 (USA) and 124.5. Unsure why 124.5mm exists. Was it a European only length?
Not saying anyone wrong. Just saying I'm not keeping up....
Op had a 121.5 BB and "the engagement on the JIS spindle was abit shallow". Logically, shouldn't he need longer than 121.5mm to engage more??
JohnDThompson says Avocet triple spindle measures 124mm
Salamandrine says 119mm unless one with weird taper.
Posted Sutherlands chart shows triples at both 119 (USA) and 124.5. Unsure why 124.5mm exists. Was it a European only length?
Not saying anyone wrong. Just saying I'm not keeping up....
#13
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Mixing and matching bottom brackets and cranks was always a dark art, even BITD when this stuff was new. In a shop, it wasn't that big of a deal because you could try and fit for taper and length, after consulting Sutherlands. If you don't have a bike shop with drawers full of BB's and spindles, it's going to be a PITA.
People most often bought a new crankset as a complete set along with a matching BB, for good reason.
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Sorry but I'm confused by this one.
Op had a 121.5 BB and "the engagement on the JIS spindle was abit shallow". Logically, shouldn't he need longer than 121.5mm to engage more??
JohnDThompson says Avocet triple spindle measures 124mm
Salamandrine says 119mm unless one with weird taper.
Posted Sutherlands chart shows triples at both 119 (USA) and 124.5. Unsure why 124.5mm exists. Was it a European only length?
Not saying anyone wrong. Just saying I'm not keeping up....
Op had a 121.5 BB and "the engagement on the JIS spindle was abit shallow". Logically, shouldn't he need longer than 121.5mm to engage more??
JohnDThompson says Avocet triple spindle measures 124mm
Salamandrine says 119mm unless one with weird taper.
Posted Sutherlands chart shows triples at both 119 (USA) and 124.5. Unsure why 124.5mm exists. Was it a European only length?
Not saying anyone wrong. Just saying I'm not keeping up....
This doesn't take into account the offset of the original spindle. A modern cartridge bottom bracket often will have no offset at all (i.e. symmetric about the bottom bracket shell).
I often get away with choosing a much shorter chainline, which suits my choice of gear selection out on the road (i.e. staying mostly in the big ring).
But the limitations of an "inward" chainline shift can be 1) chainring clearance, and 2) the possibility that the front derailer may not retract with enough authority to force a downshift.
A recent example of how all of this works out on my bike is my use of a 107mm JIS symmetrical bottom bracket with a Sugino Mighty Tour crankset on my 2X6 speed Centurion Pro-Tour. I also considered using a symmetrical 111mm ISO bottom bracket since the taper match is much better structurally, but I cheaped out and used what I had. My resulting "chainline" measurement (out to between the two chainrings) is probably just 40mm, yet the chainrings have clearance, the front derailer works perfectly and the chainline is very much how I like it. BTW my rear spacing is 125mm at this point.
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Do you have a diagram to go with the numbers? What are values A, B and C? I'm wondering if I can get enough drive side extension with a 2 mm shim on a 115mm Campy bottom bracket. I didn't ride the original bike the crank was on. I bought it off a guy because "the gears don't work" and promptly took it apart. It was also missing the inner ring.
C=Drive side
#16
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I might be able to check my BB spindle length if I am able to sneak past the dragon guarding my horde. LMK if any interest.
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Avocet BB Spindles
As esteemed BF member JohnDThompson pointed out there were 2 generations of Avocet cranks and BBs.
I suggest that you post a picture of your crank rather than having us guess which one you have....
Going way back to the first edition of Sutherland's, the listed specs have always needed to be verified: "If that's a measured length, I'd trust that over what it says in Sutherlands 10 or 15 years after the fact."
Sutherland's - 125.5mm... Measured Length - 124mm.... ???
The numbers on this Avocet BB spindle box show that a # 3 "axle" is the correct one for the later cranks.
BTW, I've used Shimano BB cartridges with lots of different cranks. If it fits, it works!
Aluminum is very malleable. ISO and JIS specs are only relative to new or slightly used cranks.
Once a crank has been mounted and torqued down, the aluminum stretches and there goes all of your holy/sacred published specs!
I put this Flickr album together one night about 10 years ago when I was trying to assemble a SS beater. I need to update it but I haven't been able to log into Flickr...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/282672...57627678462359
Scroll down and read my notes under the pictures.
verktyg
I suggest that you post a picture of your crank rather than having us guess which one you have....
Going way back to the first edition of Sutherland's, the listed specs have always needed to be verified: "If that's a measured length, I'd trust that over what it says in Sutherlands 10 or 15 years after the fact."
Sutherland's - 125.5mm... Measured Length - 124mm.... ???
The numbers on this Avocet BB spindle box show that a # 3 "axle" is the correct one for the later cranks.
BTW, I've used Shimano BB cartridges with lots of different cranks. If it fits, it works!
Aluminum is very malleable. ISO and JIS specs are only relative to new or slightly used cranks.
Once a crank has been mounted and torqued down, the aluminum stretches and there goes all of your holy/sacred published specs!
I put this Flickr album together one night about 10 years ago when I was trying to assemble a SS beater. I need to update it but I haven't been able to log into Flickr...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/282672...57627678462359
Scroll down and read my notes under the pictures.
verktyg
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Last edited by verktyg; 06-21-20 at 08:16 PM.
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IIRC (and if you actually need this option) Miche made a sealed BB unit with ISO taper spindle (might be the "Primato" or the "Team" model), and when you could find it there is a 122mm spindle length. But shop carefully because I think Miche has started offering JIS taper spindles, too, so read the fine print. These were moderately priced units, BITD.
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Avocet were compatible with Campy WRT chainring bolts and stuff. The early Sugino mighty was also interchangeable.
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Here's what I'm working with. The Shimano JIS spindle stopped 6mm from the "top".
Last edited by bark_eater; 06-22-20 at 06:08 AM.
#22
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https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-Sugino-...-/291540049880
Thanks for the confirmation on spindle length. Might be tough to find a modern cartridge BB that fits, even assuming ISO is a reasonable fit. Vintage traditional BB is another option.
I should add that I have no idea if the above bolts are long enough for an Avocet triple. Maybe. Might need some improvised spacers.
Last edited by Salamandrine; 06-22-20 at 10:32 AM.
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\I think that there was a 70s era mighty tour triple that used long bolts and spacers. I remember them from somewhere/something. At any rate there are these NOS triple chainring bolts and spacers on ebay. There seem to be other triple length chainring bolts available as well.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-Sugino-...-/291540049880
https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-Sugino-...-/291540049880
I should add that I have no idea if the above bolts are long enough for an Avocet triple. Maybe. Might need some improvised spacers.
#24
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The Campy bolts are on Ebay for $40. I wont worry about those till I can find a suitable bottom bracket.
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