dwscrimshaw@bti

To try and tidy up on the net I have removed old copies of the charts, new ones can be found below

https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...er-update.html
https://drive.google.com/drive/u/0/f...UZYSTNKZkN4TmM

Buellster

Hello!
so I'm coming here from appraisal. I recently picked a Harding bike that I am reasonably certain is a holdsworth rebrand. Serial number on bottom bracket places it in late 81-early 83.
I am having a heck of a time identify the frame model though. It has 531 forks and though the sticker is missing I am fairly certain the frames tubeset is also 531. I only think that because I haven't found a single frameset holdsworth sells that comes with a 531 fork and a lower quality frame triangle.
it looks quite similair to a 531 special to me but it seems to be wishful thinking as I've been told it is not that by a member more familiar with frames.
it is definitely set up as a touring rig. It has huge clearance with 27" tires and threaded eyelets.
One of the big things that makes this a tough one to identify is what appear to be a braced on cable guide that goes over the bottom bracket as opposed under. I have yet to find one with one of those .
Anyway heres some pictures of my find. Any help would be much appreciated!







Close up of rear drop outs


The interesting gear cable line which I havnt found on another frame

Wildwood 

Harding Special, 1982, I believe.
Clearly, chrome fork and lugs are different. Double BB cable guides
Mine has no eyelets.
Purchased as frame & fork, so no component comparison is possible.

Charles Wahl

I'm not so sure that assumption: Harding = rebranded Holdsworth is valid. Harding was a bike shop (one in Cork, one in Los Angeles, two brothers) who did buy a lot of frames from Holdsworth, but presumably they, like other shops, sourced bikes from others, and sold a range of quality/price. The non-forged dropouts, True Temper tube sticker, the design of the upper seat stay terminals, and maybe the head lugs (older model of Prugnat? Produced until when?) make the assumption questionable to me. Reynolds stickers on fork appear to be vinyl, and thus may be later applications. At the very least, they're post-1977 design, I think, and the 5-speed freewheel doesn't jibe either.


Plus, this is a serial number thread, so where are the photos of the serial number(s) whose existence is mentioned but not documented (numbers and locations)?

Buellster

Are you saying the Reynolds sticker is a fake?
What lends to that conclusion?
I did notice that the logo for True Temper(if that's what the company is, the sticker says "tru-well") is the same logo at the top left hand corner of the 531 sticker.
If I'm in the wrong thread let me know. I'm not trying crash any parties here, I just would like to know more about my bike . I had intended to provide the serial number but it looks like that picture didnt load.
I was unaware Charley Harding got his bikes from anywhere else and the threads I could find on his work mostly said that if it wasnt made by him it was made by Holdsworth. I may be mistaken on that and I dont claim to be an authority.



Looks to read 041999 Which would out it in the six digit segemnt of the holdsworth spreadsheet between 81-83
i

Buellster

thanks!

yeah they look close but the lugs an dropouts are what people keep bringing up as reasons it is likley not a special.
also I see no leftover or evidence of "special" ever being on the frame anywhere.
Where did you pic yours up?

Buellster

I also found these inscriptions on the BB no idea if they are relavant. Looks to be an 8 and maybe \"0E"

Charles Wahl

I apologize for mixing up True Temper and TI (Tube Investments) Tru®Wel. Yes, same company that owned Reynolds, but the TruWel sticker probably means that the frame is constructed of straight-gauge tubing, not double-butted. I don't know whether the fork blade stickers are fake (they're certainly widely available for anyone who would like to "apply" some cachet); but it's unlikely that they'd be applied originally without also having the same 1977-1982 rectangular "frame tubes, fork blades and stays" sticker on the seat tube (usual place high) or, less often, on down tube near upper end.


One way to tell is to weigh the frame, bare (OK to leave in pressed-in parts like headset races. Frame and fork less than 3000 grams (maybe 2850 or so for frame size in question) is probably double-butted.

Buellster

there is a blank spot where it looks as though a sticker or perhaps a part (though I dont know of a part that would leave a rectangle mark like this)

I know that means exactly squat as far as evidence goes but I just find it odd to have a bike made up with high quality forks and lower grade frame tubes. Perhaps because it is seems to be a touring set up the rider would have wanted the thicker steel?

If someone did apply the 531 sticker after it was bought they did it a long time ago, because the stickers are just as worn as the rest of the bike.



Rectangle marking

Wildwood 

Charles Wahl

Rectangle marking is not in the usual place that I'd expect to see a Reynolds sticker (much higher on the seat tube).

Buellster

yeah I figured
seems like it's a fake
Doesnt seem like it's a holdsworth eithier so sorry for crashing the thread.
Thanks for the help

Wildwood 

I cannot believe anyone would fake a Harding.
It may not be a Holdsworth, but the BB serial number seems accurately placed and consistent with their scheme.
Unfortunately there isn't much I have ever found that addressed the issue of George or Charlie Harding's operations/suppliers.

How does it ride?

Buellster

oh I meant the forks claiming to be 531.
My concern (rather the concern of a couple forum members that seem well founded) is it's a intro model Harding someone threw 531 stickers on to uptick the resale.
Havnt had much of a chance to ride it yet. I've done one two mile ride on it and it felt quite nice. Gear cables need to be changed and the tires need to be trued. I like the look of it and it's my size and that's what really matters.

browngw 

My 1972 Holdsworth Equipe was recently sold at the Canadian Vintage Bicycle Show. It was purchased by a reseller for the Toronto market. It was a fine riding bike, but the older 1965 Dilecta le Blanc won the elimination round for old steel touring.

sced

I have a 1973 custom Holdsworth Super Mistrel Fastback which is now apart for repairs and paint. The serial number on the fork steering tube is 69559.

allend

sced,

OP Dave Scrimshaw and I have looked closely at your nice frame, pics of which you've shown in other threads. Believe you've stated it was a Xmas present in 1973. The serial number 69559 points to a WF Holdsworth, Putney shop build. TJ Quick was the shop specials (custom) builder in 1973. His numbers seem to be placed along BB edge. Wonder is that the case with your frame?

From '65 until '75 shop build numbers were prefixed with 2 digits indicating the year of build. Interesting that, "in house" shop custom builds by Collard and later Quick (who took over from him) for some reason continued to have the 69 prefix extending until 1973 (at a rate of approximately 140 frames per year). This places yours c.1973 as suggested by Dave's present prediction that has been evolving over the past several years.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...UZYSTNKZkN4TmM

The Mistral was not a model built by the Putney shop and were only built by the Holdsworthy factory although the shop did also retail factory bikes as the Mistral. From prior pics you've shown, I suspect yours is a Cronometro model - a high end shop frame which was built to custom specs. Altho, granted the Cronometro does have some similarities to the Super Mistral fastback. Perhaps showing some repeat pics of your frame would help.

Again, is your frame's serial number on outside edge of BB (believe non drive side)? Your frame and number is an important piece of the Holdsworth serial puzzle.

Below are pics of Cronometro from '67-'68 and '74 "shop" catalogues (Kilgariff).

Doug

1974 Catalogue:



Also Cronometro model seems to be first discussed in another Kilgariff "shop" catalogue page from 1967 / 68:

sced

The numbers on the BB align with the spindle. When new it looked a lot like Chronometro in the picture except it was metallic azure blue with red panels, and half chrome forks and stays that were standard for the Super Mistral Fastback ( https://www.nkilgariff.com/HoldsCats...ral_Frames.jpg ). I lived in Norfolk VA at the time where the surrounding area around is very flat. My dad was a Navy pilot and we'd moved to Norfolk in 1969 after 3 years in England.

My Holdsworth was a 1972 Xmas present to replace a very similar, but smaller, Kenistons which I'd outgrown and sold to a friend. I didn't actually receive the bike until the fall of 1973 because Campagnolo had a protracted strike and parts were unavailable. I think Holdsworth was the UK distributor for Campagnolo at the time.

I ordered a 5spd and it came with a pista crank and 54t chainring, and lightweight wheels with Super Champion Medaille D'Or rims (didn't last long). I later converted it to a 10spd. It's lived a hard life and I repainted it several times. It's now off being professionally repaired and repainted.

I'd never heard of the Chronometro until now. It looks like it was first described in the 1974 catalog. I'm thinking the style of my Kenistons and Super Mistrel Fastback were popular at the time and Holdsworth formalized it in a specific model.

dddd

My Holdsworth Special is an 80's fabrication having a full six digit serial number but with no leading zero (145344).

There's some "hash marks" preceding the serial # that possibly form the corners of some one- or two-digit code that could read sideways(?) if it is even an alpha-numeric designation at all. It doesn't quite look like the corners of a letter W or H, or even "11".
I almost thought it could be the frame size (23) reading sideways, but again the "dashes" don't really line up quite right for any of these possibilities.

I think it's a Marlboro-Era Holdsworth, likely the only one I've ever seen, either in pictures or in person.
Oddly enough for a presumed mid-to-late '80's bike, it has over-the-bb derailer cable guides, uses nutted calipers, and has long-style Campagnolo rear dropouts.

I bought it near-new from the original owner in late 1999, set up as a Rivendell-style build. I can't recall who/where he might have told me the source of the frame was, but it was described as a "touring" bike.
Seems to have a similar Reynolds 531C tubing sticker as my 1984 Trek 720.
After measuring it up I'd say it's between "road" and "sport-touring" (having 73x73-degree angles).

I rebuilt it (changed every part except for the steel headset) as a standard road bike, and it does have a most-smooth ride quality even with 23mm TriCompe tires on my narrow Aerohead wheelset. It ends up being essentially what I always wanted: a more sporting version of my "Cadillac" Trek 720!

allend

sced

Wonder re the serial number 69559 as there is another frame (Cronometro Ultralite) with same number on Holdsworth serial list I link to above. Is your number correct as I notice you do give the number as 69669 on your opening post of the "Show Your Holdsworth Here" thread from several years ago?
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...orth-here.html

Are the numbers on BB oriented as in pic? This position of numbers is characteristic of Reg Collard frames.

sced

I will have to wait until I get the frameset back in a few months. The last time I painted it myself the paint on the BB was rather thick and I had a hard time reading the numbers, so the recent 5's on the fork could have looked like 6's on the BB. I'm fairly certain the numbers are oriented the other way, number tops towards the head tube. When I recently dismantled the bike the numbers on the fork were plain as day and I made a point of writing them down on a piece of paper. Perhaps my bike was simply accounted for internally as a Chrono, but I ordered using the 72 catalog in which the Chrono doesn't appear.

dwscrimshaw@bti

Does look like a special and an H at the start has been seen on some early Malboro frames. The windows in the head lugs is odd/unusual so is the double bottle bosses, These are not typical features with std. Holdsworth frames of the time. That said there is one 'Custom' build in the database that I can see a similar windows in the lugs. You might want to compare yours to this, can you clean up the BB and confirm the number?s
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vintage/253107-need-help-dating-holdsworth-frame.html
https://www.flickr.com/photos/28267220@N05/albums/72157624021802289

dwscrimshaw@bti

Yes, any information on the date this frame would have been made would be useful, ie was it in stock or built to order etc. We do have a Roy Thame frame that claims to have the same number so a picture of your would help as neither of these frames have a clear number it would be good to tie this one down. Thanks

dwscrimshaw@bti

Getting bit lost in the threads here. I would be interested in confirming the number, could you post some pictures when cleaning it up. We have two frames with 69559, but no photo confirmation. Would be good to tie one of them down. Would you also know if the frame was built to order or in stock for some reason?

allend

sced,

Yes, would be helpful to have a pic of BB serial as well as know your best estimate for when frame was built, so as to aid with serial projections.

As said, this "69" number points to a ''shop" frame rather than factory. Do you in fact remember corresponding with the WF Holdsworth, Putney shop as opposed to factory?

Definitely getting ahead of things here, but If the BB bracket numbers are neither along BB edge nor vertically oriented as in my BB example above, but rather horizontal as you describe - in that case we have previously theorized that it is still from the "shop", but probably built by an outside builder for the trade. (Kilgariff says; "Charlie Roberts and Alec Bird at unclear times"). In Dave's Excel data there is a frame K69357R that also looks like a Cronometro TT bike and serial numbers are oriented horizontally.