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So what's your beef with Multi-Use Pathes?

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So what's your beef with Multi-Use Pathes?

Old 04-08-20, 09:54 PM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by indyfabz View Post
What universe do you live in that cyclists donít do those same things, including riding with dogs on leashes that block the entire path? Or are you just blind to bad cycling because you ride a bike? Just calliní it like it is.
At no time did I exempt cyclists from the list of bad behaviours.

Why are you adding the word "riding" to the concept of dogs & long leashes?...My gawd that would be awkward. It's a thing I've never seen. Does that happen?

Seems like you are reading your own meaning into the text by way of adding extra words I didn't write.

Cyclists really ride 3 & 4 abreast and on the wrong side of the path where you ride? Now that would be worthy of mention. It doesn't happen often enough here to warrant adding to the list IME, so, you're right. I didn't include that to my list of gripes. I would, though, if I experienced it more than that one single time on a gravel ride double track.

But, since you seem super critical here that I'm somehow nose blind to the stink of cyclists bad behaviour:
Yes, as has been mentioned above by other posters, (and I've spent the bulk of my posts thus far pleading against such terrible, dangerous behaviour) : cyclists that do 20-25 mph to and through everything & everyone no matter the situation is a very specific gripe with MUP's that I have.

I even said in post 31:
[QUOTE=base2;21402825]The thing is to relax, back off, chill, coast, when things get tight. 20-25mph (32-40kph) as a steady cruising speed is pretty reasonable, but that is not a lot of time to brake for crossings, side traffic, & definitely too fast for crowded or busy conditions. You can slow your speed to plan less congested passing with oncoming traffic. It's ok. The path will be there tomorrow. I think we would all be served to be attentive to conditions and err on the side of caution. [/QUOTE]

What else could: "relax, backoff, chill, coast when things get tight," and "that doesn't leave a lot of time to brake for..." and "slow your speed to plan less congested..." and "It's ok. The path will be there tomorrow" mean when speaking to the faster end of the audience?

It seems to me an awful lot like I directed those words to cyclists. But, you tell me what you think those words mean. I wanna type English more gooder.

I even listed a bunch of situations where discretion, good judgement, & slow speeds avoided catastrophy as supporting & amplifying information to that end.

---‐------------------------
As a (maybe humorous) side story...As if I needed further supporting information for my position & seriousness with which I am against entitlement, bad civics & bad manners in all it's forms: I once even went as far as to chase down one such Racer Boy X on my tricycle with my frickin' 40 pound (20 kilo) dog in the basket just to admonish his stupid "barge-through-everyone/everything, entitled, self-centered" behaviour. When he looked over from his aero bars to see a very angry me on an undergeared tricycle with a dog keeping a his 20 mph pace, the look of shock on his face was so worth the effort to catch his dum bass.
(I'd like to think it made a difference in some small way. But, I'm pretty sure I was just "That psycho guy on a trike.)


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Old 04-09-20, 03:56 AM
  #52  
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[QUOTE=base2;21408490]At no time did I exempt cyclists from the list of bad behaviours.

Why are you adding the word "riding" to the concept of dogs & long leashes?...My gawd that would be awkward. It's a thing I've never seen. Does that happen?

Seems like you are reading your own meaning into the text by way of adding extra words I didn't write.

Cyclists really ride 3 & 4 abreast and on the wrong side of the path where you ride? Now that would be worthy of mention. It doesn't happen often enough here to warrant adding to the list IME, so, you're right. I didn't include that to my list of gripes. I would, though, if I experienced it more than that one single time on a gravel ride double track.

But, since you seem super critical here that I'm somehow nose blind to the stink of cyclists bad behaviour:
Yes, as has been mentioned above by other posters, (and I've spent the bulk of my posts thus far pleading against such terrible, dangerous behaviour) : cyclists that do 20-25 mph to and through everything & everyone no matter the situation is a very specific gripe with MUP's that I have.

I even said in post 31:
Originally Posted by base2 View Post
The thing is to relax, back off, chill, coast, when things get tight. 20-25mph (32-40kph) as a steady cruising speed is pretty reasonable, but that is not a lot of time to brake for crossings, side traffic, & definitely too fast for crowded or busy conditions. You can slow your speed to plan less congested passing with oncoming traffic. It's ok. The path will be there tomorrow. I think we would all be served to be attentive to conditions and err on the side of caution. [/QUOTE]

What else could: "relax, backoff, chill, coast when things get tight," and "that doesn't leave a lot of time to brake for..." and "slow your speed to plan less congested..." and "It's ok. The path will be there tomorrow" mean when speaking to the faster end of the audience?

It seems to me an awful lot like I directed those words to cyclists. But, you tell me what you think those words mean. I wanna type English more gooder.

I even listed a bunch of situations where discretion, good judgement, & slow speeds avoided catastrophy as supporting & amplifying information to that end.

---‐------------------------
As a (maybe humorous) side story...As if I needed further supporting information for my position & seriousness with which I am against entitlement, bad civics & bad manners in all it's forms: I once even went as far as to chase down one such Racer Boy X on my tricycle with my frickin' 40 pound (20 kilo) dog in the basket just to admonish his stupid "barge-through-everyone/everything, entitled, self-centered" behaviour. When he looked over from his aero bars to see a very angry me on an undergeared tricycle with a dog keeping a his 20 mph pace, the look of shock on his face was so worth the effort to catch his dum bass.
(I'd like to think it made a difference in some small way. But, I'm pretty sure I was just "That psycho guy on a trike.)

I thought I made it abundantly clear that I have all of the bad behavior you hung on pedestrians only, including people riding with dogs on leashes and groups spread out over the entire trail.

And the combination of your thread title and OP suggests you donít have a beef with bad cycling behavior.
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Old 04-09-20, 06:56 AM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by indyfabz View Post

And the combination of your thread title and OP suggests you donít have a beef with bad cycling behavior.
I'm not the OP & I didn't title the thread.
Ok, carry on!
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Old 04-09-20, 10:07 AM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by bobwysiwyg View Post
Am I misreading this, or are you suggesting you do 20-25 mph on MUP's?

I'll go you one better, literally. I hit 26 mph on a MUP yesterday. I also didn't see another soul on the straight flat section during the time I was going that fast. MUPs vary so much that specifying a speed limit universally applicable is absurd. You seem to be picturing the highly-populated urban path with poor sight lines. I'm riding that fast on a section of the path that basically has a swamp on both sides and is too full of bugs right now to be much fun to walk on. I might as well be on a private track.

On that ride, I also slowed to single digit mph to pass dogs, children, inattentive pedestrian, and for crossings. I announce my passes and have no close calls.

I did have one close call a couple days ago when a child who was looking right at me discovered the phenomenon of target fixation and started crossing the path to get in front of my front wheel. I was going slow enough that I was able to evade him in what was clearly a worst-case scenario. All the situational awareness in the world wouldn't have allowed me to predict that move in advance. The child was staring right at me and changed his course as if he was drawn to me like a magnet. Like I said above, ride near children like you expect them to do the absolutely worst thing possible and you'll have time to react. That theory really paid off that time.
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Old 04-09-20, 10:17 AM
  #55  
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Am I wrong about this or are the "MUPs are awful" people also the ones who post about never announcing their passes?

I find announcing makes the whole thing a lot more pleasant for all involved. Mostly we exchange thank yous at the end of the pass, and it avoids all sorts of close calls.
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Old 04-09-20, 12:25 PM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
Am I wrong about this or are the "MUPs are awful" people also the ones who post about never announcing their passes?

I find announcing makes the whole thing a lot more pleasant for all involved. Mostly we exchange thank yous at the end of the pass, and it avoids all sorts of close calls.
If you announce on the Pearl Harbor Bike Path; the first two times they do not hear you and my voice is very strong; if you yell load enough to make sure they hear the first time, then they complain about you scaring them; and when they do hear you, they turn to see what is coming and step right into your path.

And what about when the Sheriff's academy did 3 abreast formation runs on an 8 ft wide bike path?
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Old 04-09-20, 12:33 PM
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You simply have to remember the multi use in the name. That means that all of the tax payers in the city paid for them. That means there will be all types of people out on the trail, and rightfully so since they paid for them. They are not just a race track for would be racer boyz. Remember kindergarten--------------didnt they teach you things like SHARE???? Or are you one of those that flunked sand pile???
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Old 04-09-20, 01:31 PM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
If you announce on the Pearl Harbor Bike Path; the first two times they do not hear you and my voice is very strong; if you yell load enough to make sure they hear the first time, then they complain about you scaring them; and when they do hear you, they turn to see what is coming and step right into your path.

And what about when the Sheriff's academy did 3 abreast formation runs on an 8 ft wide bike path?

Hey, some paths suck. Don't ride them.

I've never ridden on that path, but I've never had systematic problems when I announce. There's the occasional headphone person or the confused person, but they're actually pretty rare in my experience, and just as likely to be pedaling as walking.
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Old 04-09-20, 01:55 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
I'll go you one better, literally. I hit 26 mph on a MUP yesterday. I also didn't see another soul on the straight flat section during the time I was going that fast. MUPs vary so much that specifying a speed limit universally applicable is absurd. You seem to be picturing the highly-populated urban path with poor sight lines. I'm riding that fast on a section of the path that basically has a swamp on both sides and is too full of bugs right now to be much fun to walk on. I might as well be on a private track.

On that ride, I also slowed to single digit mph to pass dogs, children, inattentive pedestrian, and for crossings. I announce my passes and have no close calls.

I did have one close call a couple days ago when a child who was looking right at me discovered the phenomenon of target fixation and started crossing the path to get in front of my front wheel. I was going slow enough that I was able to evade him in what was clearly a worst-case scenario. All the situational awareness in the world wouldn't have allowed me to predict that move in advance. The child was staring right at me and changed his course as if he was drawn to me like a magnet. Like I said above, ride near children like you expect them to do the absolutely worst thing possible and you'll have time to react. That theory really paid off that time.
You're not going one better for me, it's not a contest or a poker game. You too are not considering replies from folks who live in more populated areas where MUP's have lower speed limits justified by crowding and multiple use types. Ride safely.
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Old 04-09-20, 02:34 PM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by bobwysiwyg View Post
You're not going one better for me, it's not a contest or a poker game. You too are not considering replies from folks who live in more populated areas where MUP's have lower speed limits justified by crowding and multiple use types. Ride safely.
Yeah, the one better thing was a joke, you might want to brush up on the concept.

I do a lot of my riding on the Minuteman, in parts extremely crowded, so I'm not "not considering" anything, I'm saying you can't just assume all MUPs are like that. Even the Minuteman has a straight low population stretch through a swamp where basically everyone rides fast, and pedestrians are few and far between.. My point is that you can't just go "that's too fast, you're reckless" based on the mph without knowing something about the path they're on. You appeared to be incredulous that someone would ride in excess of 20 mph on a MUP. I do it a lot, I also slow down a lot.

I also don't ride on some paths because doing so safely requires going slower than I care to. I don't complain about those paths, they're just not for me.
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Old 04-09-20, 02:40 PM
  #61  
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I have no beefs. I understand the definitions of the words "Multi-Use" and "Path".
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Old 04-09-20, 10:59 PM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
Am I wrong about this or are the "MUPs are awful" people also the ones who post about never announcing their passes?

I find announcing makes the whole thing a lot more pleasant for all involved. Mostly we exchange thank yous at the end of the pass, and it avoids all sorts of close calls.
I’m not sure, however, I’ve had folks act as if I’m speaking a foreign language after announcing my pass. In fact, my last time on a MUP (a few weeks ago), I had to yell 4 times at a women (that wasn’t wearing headphones) to give way (she was walking with her family, taking up the entire path). She actually had the nerve to try to tell me I could have passed them in the dirt and that I was speeding (complete fantasy, my Garmin had me @ 10mph) followed by an expletive as I passed-by, I returned the favor and kept pedaling.

In defense of MUPs, I will say the “idiots” are definitely in the minority, but it only takes one or two to leave a bad taste in your mouth after a ride. However, the constant slowing down for pedestrians can get very annoying, and most paths just aren’t designed to be used at the speed I like to cycle at, so for now, I stick to the road.

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Old 04-10-20, 05:36 AM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by Ross520 View Post
Iím not sure, however, Iíve had folks act as if Iím speaking a foreign language after announcing my pass. In fact, my last time on a MUP (a few weeks ago), I had to yell 4 times at a women (that wasnít wearing headphones) to give way (she was walking with her family, taking up the entire path). She actually had the nerve to try to tell me I could have passed them in the dirt and that I was speeding (complete fantasy, my Garmin had me @ 10mph) followed by an expletive as I passed-by, I returned the favor and kept pedaling.

In defense of MUPs, I will say the ďidiotsĒ are definitely in the minority, but it only takes one or two to leave a bad taste in your mouth after a ride. However, the constant slowing down for pedestrians can get very annoying, and most paths just arenít designed to be used at the speed I like to cycle at, so for now, I stick to the road.
It only takes one idiot to totally ruin your day on a MUP. Whether that idiot is a pedestrian, a runner (with or without earbuds) a dog walking a dog on a fully extended retractable leash or a bicyclist or bicyclists riding like they're sprinting for the finish line at the end of a Tour de France stage; if any of those cause you to crash (which has happened to me a few times on MUPs) it can ruin your entire day or perhaps even longer.

I avoid riding on a MUP as much as possible. You just never know what's coming around that next blind corner towards you. Even riding at a crawl won't save you if some idiot on a bicycle or E-bike blasts around that corner and slams into you.

Cheers
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Old 04-10-20, 08:05 AM
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99.9% of the time I don't have issues on MUP's. I head out 30 to 60 min. before sunrise. The MUP's around here start in urban areas but become very rural in a short time and there are little to no blind curves, allowing me to fly when they are desolate.
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Old 04-11-20, 08:44 AM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
Am I wrong about this or are the "MUPs are awful" people also the ones who post about never announcing their passes?

I find announcing makes the whole thing a lot more pleasant for all involved. Mostly we exchange thank yous at the end of the pass, and it avoids all sorts of close calls.
To be honest I've ridden lots of MUP's and I consider myself a very courteous and law abiding person that cycles who gives everyone the benefit of the doubt and doesn't assume anything and even I've been stressed to the max while riding a busy (with pedestrians) uncontrolled MUP. Think about things on the flip side as well. When a sidewalk is converted to a MUP (as is often the case), you are now introducing a hazard to the pedestrians who happily utilized the sidewalk or pedestrian only path for many years. So I feel there need to be some controls in place to separate cyclists and pedestrians, a path beside a path perhaps, on MUPs. Paths must be designed with the lowest common denominator in mind to some degree as not everyone is courteous, or not looking at their phone, or not tending to their dog and/or kids, or not oblivious to others, etc.

I took a cycling course a couple years ago and at the course one of the things they told us was there is a high pitched noise that bicycle wheel bearings emit that only dogs can hear and some of them react aggressively to it. I've experienced this myself - I remember more than a few times seemingly innocent looking dogs beside their owners suddenly becoming aggressive with the presence of a myself on my bike, even if you are no where near their owner or them. The instructors suggested to us in the course, which they have apparently tested themselves, that if a dog suddenly becomes aggressive towards you to just stop your bike and they will calm down as this will cause the noise to go away. Somehow I don't think with a dog reacting aggressively to me I'll be doing this. But it is a hazard on MUPs worth noting, especially because the dogs react so suddenly often surprising their owners.

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Old 04-11-20, 07:00 PM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by speyfitter View Post
To be honest I've ridden lots of MUP's and I consider myself a very courteous and law abiding person that cycles who gives everyone the benefit of the doubt and doesn't assume anything and even I've been stressed to the max while riding a busy (with pedestrians) uncontrolled MUP. Think about things on the flip side as well. When a sidewalk is converted to a MUP (as is often the case), you are now introducing a hazard to the pedestrians who happily utilized the sidewalk or pedestrian only path for many years. So I feel there need to be some controls in place to separate cyclists and pedestrians, a path beside a path perhaps, on MUPs. Paths must be designed with the lowest common denominator in mind to some degree as not everyone is courteous, or not looking at their phone, or not tending to their dog and/or kids, or not oblivious to others, etc.

I took a cycling course a couple years ago and at the course one of the things they told us was there is a high pitched noise that bicycle wheel bearings emit that only dogs can hear and some of them react aggressively to it. I've experienced this myself - I remember more than a few times seemingly innocent looking dogs beside their owners suddenly becoming aggressive with the presence of a myself on my bike, even if you are no where near their owner or them. The instructors suggested to us in the course, which they have apparently tested themselves, that if a dog suddenly becomes aggressive towards you to just stop your bike and they will calm down as this will cause the noise to go away. Somehow I don't think with a dog reacting aggressively to me I'll be doing this. But it is a hazard on MUPs worth noting, especially because the dogs react so suddenly often surprising their owners.

I avoid MUPs that are just redesignated sidewalks, much preferring the paved rail trails, which tend to be wider and have better sight lines.

I'm skeptical about the squeal explanation --how would anyone know that's what's setting them off? I think it's because they're instinctive hunters and we look like prey.
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Old 04-11-20, 07:24 PM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
I avoid MUPs that are just redesignated sidewalks, much preferring the paved rail trails, which tend to be wider and have better sight lines.

I'm skeptical about the squeal explanation --how would anyone know that's what's setting them off? I think it's because they're instinctive hunters and we look like prey.
I can only speculate but maybe spinning a hub in an area near a dog and then stopping it?
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Old 04-11-20, 09:36 PM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by speyfitter View Post
I can only speculate but maybe spinning a hub in an area near a dog and then stopping it?

I guess, but I've seen a fair number of dogs at LBS, and they don't seem to respond when someone spins a bike on the stand.

This just doesn't make a lot of sense to me-- why is a high pitch sound randomly setting off a small subset of dogs? Also, pretty much any machine with high rpms would make sounds dogs hear that we don't. Dogs don't attack generators, for example.
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Old 04-12-20, 01:40 AM
  #69  
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Old 04-12-20, 07:08 PM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
I guess, but I've seen a fair number of dogs at LBS, and they don't seem to respond when someone spins a bike on the stand.

This just doesn't make a lot of sense to me-- why is a high pitch sound randomly setting off a small subset of dogs? Also, pretty much any machine with high rpms would make sounds dogs hear that we don't. Dogs don't attack generators, for example.
Dogs are territorial and when you pass their territory they can feel threatened or protective of their owners. It's instinctive. When the owner is there with them and the dog sees no threat to them they relax.

Loose dogs have no defined territory They are also pack animals.
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Old 04-12-20, 07:23 PM
  #71  
gear64
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I have few issues with MUPs in general. They are what they are, a collective resource. Mostly an open green space with regard to the ones I ride here, and I generally expect the unexpected. I have no expectation that they will be motor vehicle road organized. Dogs will bound, toddlers will wander, toddlers on bikes will veer etc, etc. I use them for lazy rides and short connectors. When I want to get up and go I ride in the street. My biggest frustration is other cyclists that treat them as high speed training venues, particularly riding in pace lines, and god forbid they have to touch a brake lever.
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Old 04-12-20, 08:03 PM
  #72  
Digger Goreman
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It seems tbat MUPs are rarely the problem.... It's the selfish, narcissistic, clueless humans that bollocks the experience....
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Old 04-13-20, 04:03 AM
  #73  
livedarklions
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Originally Posted by Rollfast View Post
Dogs are territorial and when you pass their territory they can feel threatened or protective of their owners. It's instinctive. When the owner is there with them and the dog sees no threat to them they relax.

Loose dogs have no defined territory They are also pack animals.

I've had a couple dogs on leashes snap at me-- I give them too much room for them to get me. I think that's the type of incident the squeaky hub hypothesis is trying to explain. Mind you, I don't buy the hypothesis, so don't expect me to defend it.
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Old 04-13-20, 08:27 AM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by speyfitter View Post
To be honest I've ridden lots of MUP's and I consider myself a very courteous and law abiding person that cycles who gives everyone the benefit of the doubt and doesn't assume anything and even I've been stressed to the max while riding a busy (with pedestrians) uncontrolled MUP. Think about things on the flip side as well. When a sidewalk is converted to a MUP (as is often the case), you are now introducing a hazard to the pedestrians who happily utilized the sidewalk or pedestrian only path for many years. So I feel there need to be some controls in place to separate cyclists and pedestrians, a path beside a path perhaps, on MUPs. Paths must be designed with the lowest common denominator in mind to some degree as not everyone is courteous, or not looking at their phone, or not tending to their dog and/or kids, or not oblivious to others, etc.

I took a cycling course a couple years ago and at the course one of the things they told us was there is a high pitched noise that bicycle wheel bearings emit that only dogs can hear and some of them react aggressively to it. I've experienced this myself - I remember more than a few times seemingly innocent looking dogs beside their owners suddenly becoming aggressive with the presence of a myself on my bike, even if you are no where near their owner or them. The instructors suggested to us in the course, which they have apparently tested themselves, that if a dog suddenly becomes aggressive towards you to just stop your bike and they will calm down as this will cause the noise to go away. Somehow I don't think with a dog reacting aggressively to me I'll be doing this. But it is a hazard on MUPs worth noting, especially because the dogs react so suddenly often surprising their owners.
Have you ever walked around Brussels? The cycle path is literally a couple of painted lines on the pedestrian sidewalk. During commuting times in particular, but all of the time in actuality, cyclists fly (12 - 15 mph??) along the sidewalk inches from pedestrians. You have to watch your step if you're walking. I'm sure that there are collisions. I wonder who is held at fault if a pedestrian is hit while in the cycle pathway?
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Old 04-13-20, 12:04 PM
  #75  
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Speaking for the US here:

Too much of a tendency for cities to treat an MUP as an infinitely long no-rules park instead of a thoroughfare. Around here MUPs are the gathering spot for dogs with 20' flexy leashes, off leash dogs, old people walking 5 wide, every parent's crotch fruit strung out everywhere on scooters and laying on the ground, joggers with headphones all over like a zig zap, and the wussy fake paceline cyclists treating it like the TdF.

The problem when it's "for everyone" is that nobody can seem to respect the rules that allow some semblance of order. When everyone is priority, nobody wins.

I'm more in favor of restricted use trails or trails that give priority to certain users.
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