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How to get cars to avoid the street you are on..

Old 02-03-20, 12:55 PM
  #1  
genec
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How to get cars to avoid the street you are on..

Pull a red wagon full of phones...
https://www.vice.com/amp/en_us/artic...full-of-phones
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Old 02-03-20, 02:18 PM
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That's awesome! I can think of a few places around here to do that.


It does beg the question, though, when I'm biking, do I add to the general traffic, or if I'm navigating in bicycle mode, it ignores me for that purpose?
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Old 02-03-20, 02:22 PM
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Good question. Have to ask the guy with a wagon full of phones.
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Old 02-03-20, 02:24 PM
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How long until Google ads a phone wagon algorithm.

A group of pedestrians can't be that uncommon. But, if cars are zipping past the pedestrians at 50 MPH, then it isn't a congestion problem.

How many people are using Google real-time navigation vs in built in navigation? Are the car navigation systems able to steal bluetooth bandwidth from any connected phones?
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Old 02-03-20, 02:30 PM
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Old 02-03-20, 02:43 PM
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When I need fairly reliable GPS, I find google is far more reliable than the year old chip in my car.
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Old 02-03-20, 05:07 PM
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Fascinating!

See also here: https://www.bikeforums.net/foo/11913...n-tracked.html

Already it would not be hard to put, say, 10m error bubbles on those phones' GPS locations, and realize it is not possible for them all to be cars
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Old 02-09-20, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by genec View Post
When I need fairly reliable GPS, I find google is far more reliable than the year old chip in my car.
When I use Google I find it's slightly less reliable than the drunk guy I asked at the bar.
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Old 02-09-20, 09:10 PM
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This must have been expensive. Renting 100 phones and buying some sim cards for them.
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Old 02-10-20, 12:53 AM
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Originally Posted by RubeRad View Post
Fascinating!

See also here: https://www.bikeforums.net/foo/11913...n-tracked.html

Already it would not be hard to put, say, 10m error bubbles on those phones' GPS locations, and realize it is not possible for them all to be cars
That ten meter bubble averages out if you are moving... and if you also have wifi on, that too is used to as beacons to smooth the picture. It can be quite accurate. But you DO have to be moving. That error shows up dramatically when you stand still.
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Old 02-10-20, 01:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Rollfast View Post
When I use Google I find it's slightly less reliable than the drunk guy I asked at the bar.
That drunk guy must be an old sailor with a great sense of direction.

I am talking google maps... not "hey google." The app, plus street view, is pretty good, and often even aware of local construction.

It can be fooled however, as we see by this thread.

Paper maps, however, are a bit harder to use, in a moving vehicle... google gives audible turn by turn instructions... but I DO verify by reading signs and using my own eyes... I have seen some real failures with it. So my trust IS somewhat "weighted."
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Old 02-10-20, 01:16 AM
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And this is where someone failed to use their eyes, read signs and use common sense, while using google maps.
https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2020/...-to-cross/amp/
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Old 02-10-20, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
Are the car navigation systems able to steal bluetooth bandwidth from any connected phones?
No.
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Old 02-10-20, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by genec View Post
and if you also have wifi on, that too is used to as beacons to smooth the picture.
​​​​​​Using wifi for location is much less accurate than GPS. It is faster to acquire than GPS and can be used where GPS cannot (like inside). The range of wifi is too short to have much use outside. WiFi is not likely being used for smoothing.

​​​​​

Last edited by njkayaker; 02-10-20 at 08:34 AM.
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Old 02-10-20, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
​​​​​​Using wifi for location is much less accurate than GPS. It is faster to acquire than GPS and can be used where GPS cannot (like inside). The range of wifi is too short to have much use outside. WiFi is not likely being used for smoothing.

​​​​​
Did you note I said "also."

Together GPS and wifi DO give more accurate data.

The hiearchy starts with cell tower data, then includes GPS, based on ephemeris data from cell towers, this is further refined by wifi locations, as wifi has the shortest range.

Some devices can use GPS alone, such as my Android phone, which will give nautical chart plot fixes well outside of cellular range, and will use saved maps with GPS alone. This is a feature I have to engage. (And have) GPS acquisition takes just a bit more time outside of cellular range.

I don't rely on my smart phone alone... I also use a dedicated chart plotter, and printed charts, while sailing... thus triple redundancy. And of course, eyes, and depth meter as final verification.
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Old 02-10-20, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by genec View Post
Together GPS and wifi DO give more accurate data.
No. Wifi is used if GPS is not available and to get a quick (rough) approximation of location so that the much-more accurate GPS location can be obtained faster.

Originally Posted by genec View Post
The hiearchy starts with cell tower data, then includes GPS, based on ephemeris data from cell towers, this is further refined by wifi locations, as wifi has the shortest range.
Getting the location from the towers is fast but not accurate.

https://transition.fcc.gov/pshs/911/...ePaper0515.pdf

"By using cell tower triangulation (3 towers), it is possible to determine a phone location to within an area of about square mile."

The location of wifi is based on getting the GPS location for the router. Wifi only location is less "refined" than GPS because it's based on an approximate GPS location.

It's GPS (if it's available) that "refines" location by cell-tower or WiFi.

Last edited by njkayaker; 02-10-20 at 10:59 AM.
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Old 02-10-20, 12:00 PM
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I had a rental (mitsubishi outlander) on a work trip recently, the radio/computer/etc had 'GPS'. No maps or directions, just GPS. It showed your current latitude and longitude, and a scatterplot of the constellation of GPS satellites you were currently getting your fix from.

I was surprised that the set remained pretty constant. There was one on the edge of the scatterplot that was popping in and out. I was under the impression that the GPS satellites were orbiting much faster, and the cluster you can see changes minute by minute. I guess their orbits are actually close to geostationary.
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Old 02-10-20, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
No. Wifi is used if GPS is not available and to get a quick (rough) approximation of location so that the much-more accurate GPS location can be obtained faster.


Getting the location from the towers is fast but not accurate.

https://transition.fcc.gov/pshs/911/...ePaper0515.pdf

"By using cell tower triangulation (3 towers), it is possible to determine a phone location to within an area of about square mile."

The location of wifi is based on getting the GPS location for the router. Wifi only location is less "refined" than GPS because it's based on an approximate GPS location.

It's GPS (if it's available) that "refines" location by cell-tower or WiFi.
From your cited document, and bearing in mind that I did specify "AND" as in GPS AND WiFi.

Wi-Fi-based positioning system (WPS) or WiPS/WFPS is used where GPS is inadequate due to various causes including multipath and signal blockage indoors. Wi-Fi positioning takes advantage of the rapid growth of wireless access points in urban areas. The Wi-Fi hotspot database gets filled by correlating mobile device GPS location data with Wi-Fi hotspot MAC addresses. The possible signal fluctuations that may occur between the phone and the access point can increase errors and inaccuracies in the path of the user. Additionally, in a power outage scenario, W-Fi detection may not be possible.

When used together (the AND part) WiFi increases the accuracy of a system over GPS location alone.

Wifi alone is not very accurate, cell alone is based on tower trangulation.

GPS, and Cell and WiFi together present the most accurate location picture.

Again, note the use of AND. The sum is greater than any of the individual parts.
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Old 02-10-20, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by genec View Post
That ten meter bubble averages out if you are moving... and if you also have wifi on, that too is used to as beacons to smooth the picture. It can be quite accurate. But you DO have to be moving. That error shows up dramatically when you stand still.
​​​​​​I think at least some GPS receivers have clever programming that take advantage of your movement and inertia. Your GPS location jumps around within a circle, at any direction, but if you're traveling quickly you aren't going to go 180* in the other direction without turning first, or even a sudden 90* movement. To a lesser extent I think some devices also leverage their compass and accelerometers. Suunto has a GPS running watch that can take a GPS fix once a minute or less, and estimate your speed and location the rest of the time, as a battery saving measure. The tracks it produces look surprisingly good compared to an every second capture.​​​​
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Old 02-10-20, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by genec View Post
When used together (the AND part) WiFi increases the accuracy of a system over GPS location alone.
No, having neither WiFi or cell-tower triangulation doesn't mean your GPS location is less accurate.

Other than phones, basically no GPS device uses WiFi or cell-tower triangulation. They aren't less accurate. The way they are typically used, they don't need to use WiFi or cell-tower triangulation at all.

Having them just makes getting GPS data faster (and they work when there isn't any GPS).

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Old 02-10-20, 08:08 PM
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If I had my way, we'd reduce traffic and speed with speed bumps designed to allow bikes to pass safely. There's no reason for driving as fast as some folks do on residential roads, but they'll do it because Waze and Google tell 'em to so they aren't delayed by 2 seconds taking the highway, boulevards and main thoroughfares.
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Old 02-11-20, 01:10 AM
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Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
No, having neither WiFi or cell-tower triangulation doesn't mean your GPS location is less accurate.

Other than phones, basically no GPS device uses WiFi or cell-tower triangulation. They aren't less accurate. The way they are typically used, they don't need to use WiFi or cell-tower triangulation at all.

Having them just makes getting GPS data faster (and they work when there isn't any GPS).
You really are not paying attention to what I said. Cell towers provide ephemeris data. A non cellular GPS may have to be "primed" with such data by the user when turned on in a new area.

The cell data does not make the GPS more accurate... on that I agree. It just helps "prime" the GPS in a cell phone when it has moved great distaces while off. Moving a navigation GPS across country while turned off will require similar priming by the user, promped by "What state/country are you in?" type questions when turned on.

WiFi adds to the GPS data, where GPS cannot see satellites, thus it adds to the accuracy of GPS. Hence GPS AND WiFi give more accurate position data. (There is that AND situation I keep mentioning...) This WiFi AND GPS improved location situation occurs often in dense city areas where tall buildings block the satellite signal.

Movement allows for more accurate location data as the GPS algorithm in most devices averages out position errors with new location data. Accelerometers and magnetometers within cell phones give inertial data to the location system to further improve accuracy. (You can screw up your location data in a cell phone with a magnetic clasp cover)

Other non cellular GPSs use WAAS for more accuracy... these are ground based beacons at airports and harbors used to give fixed location points to improve position accuracy.

I am finished with this part of this thead now... good day sir.
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Old 02-12-20, 02:24 AM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
If I had my way, we'd reduce traffic and speed with speed bumps designed to allow bikes to pass safely. There's no reason for driving as fast as some folks do on residential roads, but they'll do it because Waze and Google tell 'em to so they aren't delayed by 2 seconds taking the highway, boulevards and main thoroughfares.
I hate speed bumps, and I don't own a car. I do own a bad back.
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Old 02-12-20, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by genec View Post
WiFi adds to the GPS data, where GPS cannot see satellites, thus it adds to the accuracy of GPS.
No, WiFi gives approximate location when GPS is unavailable. It's in place of GPS (it doesn't make GPS more accurate.

Originally Posted by genec View Post
and if you also have wifi on, that too is used to as beacons to smooth the picture.
This is nonsense.

Originally Posted by genec View Post
WiFi adds to the GPS data, where GPS cannot see satellites, thus it adds to the accuracy of GPS. Hence GPS AND WiFi give more accurate position data.
It doesn't "add to the accuracy of GPS data". It provides (approximate) location when GPS data isn't available.

In any case, the WIFi data is based on having the GPS coordinates of the router. It can't be more accurate than GPS (so it can't "add to GPS accuracy").

"Position data" isn't the same thing as "GPS data". You are confusing the two.

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Old 02-12-20, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by genec View Post
Paper maps, however, are a bit harder to use, in a moving vehicle... google gives audible turn by turn instructions... but I DO verify by reading signs and using my own eyes... I have seen some real failures with it. So my trust IS somewhat "weighted."
I can easily think back to a time that paper maps and que sheets were IT. Occasional stops to consult said were part of any trip. Shortly after the internet became a 'thing', MapQuest. I think any of us with the pleasure of using said service also learned to HAVE A MAP. As TomTom and Garmin GPS units came on the scene we were treated to constantly having to update maps to poorly optimized devices with bad GPS signal and algorithms that INSISTED you take some specific road in an area, even at the cost of miles.
By and large I would call "Mobile" maps and it's associated tracking the best use case scenario for the technology, particularly in conjunction with it's host device being a phone. Super handy, typically quite reliable, and the best part is that if you take a wrong turn it will just re-route you back.

As to installed systems in cars, I try to avoid them. It's getting harder as they now come as integral part(s) of the build and systems. They eventually fall into that same TomTom/Garmin trap and typically sit unused and outdated.
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