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So what's your beef with Multi-Use Pathes?

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So what's your beef with Multi-Use Pathes?

Old 04-06-20, 05:38 PM
  #26  
Jim from Boston
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Originally Posted by drlogik View Post
There was a time not all that long ago when there were no bike paths, bike lanes or dedicated "exercise paths". We have it good now, really good. I've been riding on the road since 1974. We should grateful for what we have now. Instead of complaining, form a volunteer Pathway Coalition in your area made up of riders, walkers, joggers, etc and find common ground.

Yes, it's a hassle riding on multi-use paths but that is what they are. Everyone has to get along on the same path. I had to adjust my attitude many years ago when there were no paths just to survive my 40 mile loop outside Cleveland Ohio in 1974. I try to carry that same attitude today on every ride.-
I recently posted:
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
...Back in the 1970s, early in my cycling lifestyle, I got involved with a local advocacy group, mostly political and not otherwise an active cycling organization. I think it was called the Ann Arbor Bicycle Coalition. I was interviewed on a local radio talk show on WAAM as I recall, about a bicycle rally the group was holding.

For that event, I mapped out a bike route on residential streets similar to an automobile road rally where the winner arrives closest to the predetermined time I established for a “safe” ride..

I think that back then the big push was for more sidewalk curb cuts.
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Old 04-06-20, 05:53 PM
  #27  
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Jim from Boston,

I didn't read many of the posts before I posted mine. I missed yours. You and I went through the same experiences it seems. And we both seem to hold the same view as well. Maybe folks will read this and start their own coalition.
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Old 04-06-20, 11:24 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by drlogik View Post
There was a time not all that long ago when there were no bike paths, bike lanes or dedicated "exercise paths". We have it good now, really good. I've been riding on the road since 1974. We should grateful for what we have now. Instead of complaining, form a volunteer Pathway Coalition in your area made up of riders, walkers, joggers, etc and find common ground.

Yes, it's a hassle riding on multi-use paths but that is what they are. Everyone has to get along on the same path. I had to adjust my attitude many years ago when there were no paths just to survive my 40 mile loop outside Cleveland Ohio in 1974. I try to carry that same attitude today on every ride.



-
Yeah we should be grateful for being 40+ years behind Europe in bike infrastructure in North America due to a guy who thought vehicular cycling was the way to go over separated cycling infrastructure.
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Old 04-06-20, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by JW Fas View Post
I wish I could find the video, but there was footage from a cyclist on a MUP where he began to overtake a headphones-wearing runner, and despite giving that runner plenty of room they abruptly made a U-turn. It resulted in a nasty collision.

Edit: Found it. https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=32d_1463120880
Thanks for posting this video, this is a very real and very valuable video and highlights the problems with different user groups sharing the same path where one is often governed by specific road rules and the other not so much.
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Old 04-06-20, 11:34 PM
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So I appreciate everyone's input and value any further input on this topic as well.

I'm curious if any of you (or someone you know) has been involved in a collision on a multi use path with a pedestrian or other user? Have you or anyone you know had to go to court over a collision and if so, what happened? Does anyone carry insurance, which I'm told is offered in some jurisdictions to cover you in the event of a collision as a cyclist with a pedestrian, other cyclist, or vehicle? Ever had to use it?

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Old 04-07-20, 01:56 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by speyfitter View Post
So I appreciate everyone's input and value any further input on this topic as well.

I'm curious if any of you (or someone you know) has been involved in a collision on a multi use path with a pedestrian or other user? Have you or anyone you know had to go to court over a collision and if so, what happened? Does anyone carry insurance, which I'm told is offered in some jurisdictions to cover you in the event of a collision as a cyclist with a pedestrian, other cyclist, or vehicle? Ever had to use it?
All of the above. (I think)
I ran over an unleashed dog once that launched from the ditch & succeeded in chomping my front tire as I rolled over it's head twisting it's neck in a gruesome manner that then flattened it's ribcage as I was sent flying over the handle bars. I damaged a shifter & got 20 mph worth of road rash on 5/8 minus crush, a broken helmet, and a royal reaming from an irate & negligent dog owner yelling "Shared use path, shared use path!" I yelled back: "If you are on the left, your unleased dog is on the right, then charges up the middle, that's not sharing!" I then told her to leash her dog, called her an expletive & rode my bleeding self away.

I now have no problem telling a negligent owner to "leash your dog" & freely tell them "I killed a dog once, I'd like to not have that happen again." Most people are surprised. On ocassion 1 is dismissive.

One lady almost got her disabled child ran over by yours truly. I was doing about 5-7mph (just faster than a walking pace, slower than a run; ) The kid was off the path & randomly decided to dart in front of me to go to mommy. She had never heard of "all users keep right" and did not appreciate being told it was her parental duty to teach her son the rules of society for his own safety & my own. She made a bunch of excuses for him & I admonished her for selling him short. The kids level headed dad saw reason & things defused & we bid good day. I'm sure there is a video on the Youtube somewhere...It was very crowded.

I got charged by a bulldog today on a residential street. I stopped hard enough my back wheel was off the ground. The owner with the 30 foot unlocked leash was very apologetic. I saved the speech we weren't on the path & he knew he screwed up. I only mention it to illustrate attention to riding & inattention of others is everywhere.

Yesterday I had a lady try to step in my way to confront me about I don't know what. She had 3 or 4 small children scattered about. I ducked around her, but stopped for the one 3 year old a hundred feet (33 meeter) down that was at risk.

A year ago I had a guy throw a potato crisps can of roofing nails in my path. I was puzzled until he tried to get in my face. I was coasting down an underpass.

A few times the jogger scenario has happened. Never a collision. I just ducked to the right &/or was ready with the brakes.

Never been to court.
Car insurance/house insurance ought to cover the bulk of any damages.

The thing is to relax, back off, chill, coast, when things get tight. 20-25mph (32-40kph) as a steady cruising speed is pretty reasonable, but that is not a lot of time to brake for crossings, side traffic, & definitely too fast for crowded or busy conditions. You can slow your speed to plan less congested passing with oncoming traffic. It's ok. The path will be there tomorrow. I think we would all be served to be attentive to conditions and err on the side of caution.

Most pedestrians don't see a 30-40mph closing speed with oncoming traffic. So they really do not have a sense of scale the distance or amount of time cyclists are planning their path. They just see the after effect of a maneuver & assume it was done in a reckless manner. To them, rightly it would seem so, but that is a reflection of the size of their awareness bubble.

"CAREFUL!" Usually snaps their attention before they do something blind & stupid.

20,000 miles. One collision. Dog owner negligence. No court, no police, no nuthin' but a lot of pictures of my scraped up body & a whole mess of stuff avoided.
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Old 04-07-20, 04:56 AM
  #32  
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I announce my passes, slow down when passing dogs or children, wait for the left lane to be clear before starting my pass, and rarely have any real problems in several thousands of MUP riding miles per year. I'm pretty selective on which MUPs I use, generally ones I use allow safe operation at greater than 20 mph. I

My biggest safety issues usually come from oncoming cyclists popping suddenly into my lane because they won't wait to pass, or just refusing to get into single file back into their own lane. IMHO, there's a lot more jerks on bikes than on foot on the MUPs.
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Old 04-07-20, 06:59 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post


My biggest safety issues usually come from oncoming cyclists popping suddenly into my lane because they won't wait to pass, .
this is so so bad here too. I will slow down and do the safe thing, so many people speed up like its a yellow light and try to squeeze through and make a potential unsafe pass. This is every ride at some point......
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Old 04-07-20, 07:07 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by sdmc530 View Post
this is so so bad here too. I will slow down and do the safe thing, so many people speed up like its a yellow light and try to squeeze through and make a potential unsafe pass. This is every ride at some point......

For me, it depends on the path. On the Minuteman, which I typically ride end to end on weekend days, I can expect to have some kind of incident like that every third ride or so. On the Nashua River, which I typically ride after work, I almost never have that happen.

I'm not riding at all on the Minuteman during the plague, and curtailing a lot of my riding on the Nashua--too many dogs right now because that's where people are taking them on their 8 times a day walks. Makes it really hard to maintain anything resembling social distance.
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Old 04-07-20, 08:47 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by base2 View Post
All of the above. (I think)
I ran over an unleashed dog once that launched from the ditch & succeeded in chomping my front tire as I rolled over it's head twisting it's neck in a gruesome manner that then flattened it's ribcage as I was sent flying over the handle bars. I damaged a shifter & got 20 mph worth of road rash on 5/8 minus crush, a broken helmet, and a royal reaming from an irate & negligent dog owner yelling "Shared use path, shared use path!" I yelled back: "If you are on the left, your unleased dog is on the right, then charges up the middle, that's not sharing!" I then told her to leash her dog, called her an expletive & rode my bleeding self away.

I now have no problem telling a negligent owner to "leash your dog" & freely tell them "I killed a dog once, I'd like to not have that happen again." Most people are surprised. On ocassion 1 is dismissive.

One lady almost got her disabled child ran over by yours truly. I was doing about 5-7mph (just faster than a walking pace, slower than a run; ) The kid was off the path & randomly decided to dart in front of me to go to mommy. She had never heard of "all users keep right" and did not appreciate being told it was her parental duty to teach her son the rules of society for his own safety & my own. She made a bunch of excuses for him & I admonished her for selling him short. The kids level headed dad saw reason & things defused & we bid good day. I'm sure there is a video on the Youtube somewhere...It was very crowded.

I got charged by a bulldog today on a residential street. I stopped hard enough my back wheel was off the ground. The owner with the 30 foot unlocked leash was very apologetic. I saved the speech we weren't on the path & he knew he screwed up. I only mention it to illustrate attention to riding & inattention of others is everywhere.

Yesterday I had a lady try to step in my way to confront me about I don't know what. She had 3 or 4 small children scattered about. I ducked around her, but stopped for the one 3 year old a hundred feet (33 meeter) down that was at risk.

A year ago I had a guy throw a potato crisps can of roofing nails in my path. I was puzzled until he tried to get in my face. I was coasting down an underpass.

A few times the jogger scenario has happened. Never a collision. I just ducked to the right &/or was ready with the brakes.

Never been to court.
Car insurance/house insurance ought to cover the bulk of any damages.

The thing is to relax, back off, chill, coast, when things get tight. 20-25mph (32-40kph) as a steady cruising speed is pretty reasonable, but that is not a lot of time to brake for crossings, side traffic, & definitely too fast for crowded or busy conditions. You can slow your speed to plan less congested passing with oncoming traffic. It's ok. The path will be there tomorrow. I think we would all be served to be attentive to conditions and err on the side of caution.

Most pedestrians don't see a 30-40mph closing speed with oncoming traffic. So they really do not have a sense of scale the distance or amount of time cyclists are planning their path. They just see the after effect of a maneuver & assume it was done in a reckless manner. To them, rightly it would seem so, but that is a reflection of the size of their awareness bubble.

"CAREFUL!" Usually snaps their attention before they do something blind & stupid.

20,000 miles. One collision. Dog owner negligence. No court, no police, no nuthin' but a lot of pictures of my scraped up body & a whole mess of stuff avoided.
Am I misreading this, or are you suggesting you do 20-25 mph on MUP's?
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Old 04-07-20, 09:06 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by bobwysiwyg View Post
Am I misreading this, or are you suggesting you do 20-25 mph on MUP's?
Yes, & I do so frequently. No I don't "only" do 20-25 (I go a lot of other speeds too. ) I am suggesting that if you go "fast," it's ok to be strategic & back off as the situation dictates for the safety of everyone.

Not everyone has the same awareness bubble & sometimes a not dangerous or risky anything could be perceived as dangerous. So it's best to give ample clearance for whatever that unfolds.

1 (not at fault) incident in 20,000 miles seems to suggest using discretion & good judgement when dealing with unpredictable & unaware people is a good strategy.

Last edited by base2; 04-07-20 at 09:13 AM.
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Old 04-07-20, 12:00 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by base2 View Post
Yes, & I do so frequently. No I don't "only" do 20-25 (I go a lot of other speeds too. ) I am suggesting that if you go "fast," it's ok to be strategic & back off as the situation dictates for the safety of everyone.

Not everyone has the same awareness bubble & sometimes a not dangerous or risky anything could be perceived as dangerous. So it's best to give ample clearance for whatever that unfolds.

1 (not at fault) incident in 20,000 miles seems to suggest using discretion & good judgement when dealing with unpredictable & unaware people is a good strategy.
Wait a minute. You already had two fatal or near fatal incidences going at 20 mph on shared paths with pedestrians (not cars) and you're yelling at other people for their inattentiveness?!

It doesn't look as if your own situational awareness is as good as you think. Other that or you're just trolling.
If you're planning to go 20 mph, stay on the street. Bike lanes would be useless to you anyways.
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Old 04-07-20, 12:19 PM
  #38  
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I read base2 as using more than reasonable due diligence in adjusting his speed to the situation....
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Old 04-07-20, 12:37 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Digger Goreman View Post
I read base2 as using more than reasonable due diligence in adjusting his speed to the situation....
Ding, ding!
Thank you. That was the intended meaning.
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Old 04-07-20, 12:54 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by Daniel4 View Post
Wait a minute. You already had two fatal or near fatal incidences going at 20 mph on shared paths with pedestrians (not cars) and you're yelling at other people for their inattentiveness?!

It doesn't look as if your own situational awareness is as good as you think. Other that or you're just trolling.
If you're planning to go 20 mph, stay on the street. Bike lanes would be useless to you anyways.
It was a list of situations avoided.

As far as bike lanes, cars don't see you or don't expect you to be doing near the speed limit...nearly squeezed out & right hooked in a dedicated "protected" full lane yesterday.

Look at my signature about lights. I run full strobe on streets for a reason.

The bottom line, as said up thread is awareness bubbles are my gripe about MUP's, but that goes for all other places as well.

It's just good civics to be aware of others & I summarized the current state of things in post number 2. We can all share, the same space, but that means some people gotta learn to share.

The gripe is people that don't share & too ignorant to know they should.
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Old 04-07-20, 01:06 PM
  #41  
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My biggest beef is governments turning what is a bike path into a MUP by simply changing the name of the path.

The Pearl Harbor "Bike Path" was designed and build in 1972 with the standard engineering width for a bike path of 8 feet. The standard engineering width for a MUP is 12 feet for safety. Any of you see a problem here, because the government does not.

There have been many groups that have seen fit to use the Pearl Harbor Bike Path for group runs. Those runs have included high school cross country teams, Army formation runs, sponsored large races, and the worst - the Sheriff's academy doing formation runs. One race and the Sheriff's academy runs were the worst. The race was not permitted, had about 200 racers, had no safety precautions or runner safety briefing about it being a bike path. That race caused an injury to me, I filed a law suit and won to force the end of group events. The Sheriff's academy formation runs occured after the law suit win, and they did not give a crap that they were not allowed to do the 3 abreast formation runs. It took going to the State AG threatening another law suit to put the Sheriff's academy in check.

Current problems have been homeless encampments that the government has been reluctant to take sufficient action from having their stuff on the path, using mopeds on the path, painting "private road" on the path and then threatening cyclist using the path. I watched the homeless man that painted the "private road" on the path, repeatedly punch his girl full force in the face. I called the cops and they would not press charges because the girl did not want to file a complaint. That violent homeless man that does drugs, still lives along the Pearl Harbor Bike Path against an easement agreement and city law.
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Old 04-07-20, 03:46 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by drlogik View Post
Jim from Boston,

I didn't read many of the posts before I posted mine. I missed yours. You and I went through the same experiences it seems. And we both seem to hold the same view as well. Maybe folks will read this and start their own coalition.
Hi @drlogik,


Thanks for the note. FYA, I had previously posted my replies to this thread on posts #’s 17 and 20, and the post below.

By way of further comparison if interested, I have posted my cycling biography (link) as my introduction to Bike Forums. I note at least that we go back to the 1970’s Golden Age of Cycling, in the contiguous states of Michigan and Ohio.

↓↓↓↓
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Old 04-07-20, 03:51 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by drlogik View Post
There was a time not all that long ago when there were no bike paths, bike lanes or dedicated "exercise paths". We have it good now, really good. I've been riding on the road since 1974. We should grateful for what we have now. Instead of complaining, form a volunteer Pathway Coalition in your area made up of riders, walkers, joggers, etc and find common ground.

Yes, it's a hassle riding on multi-use paths but that is what they are. Everyone has to get along on the same path. I had to adjust my attitude many years ago when there were no paths just to survive my 40 mile loop outside Cleveland Ohio in 1974. I try to carry that same attitude today on every ride-
Originally Posted by speyfitter View Post
Yeah we should be grateful for being 40+ years behind Europe in bike infrastructure in North America due to a guy who thought vehicular cycling was the way to go over separated cycling infrastructure.
I’m not sure who that nefarious guy is (? John Forester) but I think cycling infrastructure is possibly correlated with the age of the city prior to introduction of the automobile, so much longer in compact, recently war-ravaged European cities; and even longer in older, denser US East Coast cities with better cycling infrastructure (link), than the sprawling Midwest and West.


In any case I have previously posted:
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
“I don't think I like physically separated bike lanes.”

As a decades-long urban commuter and road cyclist, on a societal policy basis, I was impressed by this opinion by @B. Carfree
Originally Posted by B. Carfree View Post
…Some people, mostly people who are relatively new to cycling, think we should use the few dollars that can go towards improving conditions for cycling by building a few miles of separated infrastructure and place it mostly on urban roads (with the inevitable intersection failures).

Other, more experienced riders, think we would be better served by funding traffic law enforcement and putting in many more miles of proper, six to eight foot bike lanes (not in the door zone) and only putting in separate facilities where there are long stretches of high-speed road without appreciable numbers of intersections.

This difference of opinion wouldn't be such a big deal, but many of the segregationists have been making their public case by convincing everyone that cycling is too dangerous to be done anywhere except on a segregated facility.

Not surprisingly, this has an impact in terms of how many people are willing to even try riding a bike since there is no way to get anywhere in the US without riding on a road.

Oddly enough, these people are called and consider themselves "bicycling advocates". If one were to design a fifth-column assault to keep cycling participation down, it would look just like the pro-separation folks.
Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
I hate the idea of walled-off lanes, myself ... I don't want to be penned in with a bunch of cyclists ... worst group of people ....

Last edited by Jim from Boston; 04-07-20 at 04:02 PM.
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Old 04-07-20, 03:54 PM
  #44  
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It's the only place I ride my road bikes. Problem for me are the pedestrians. Some are just downright clueless/brainless.
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Old 04-07-20, 04:17 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
I’m not sure who that nefarious guy is (? John Forester) but I think cycling infrastructure is possibly correlated with the age of the city prior to introduction of the automobile, so much longer in compact, recently war-ravaged European cities; and even longer in older, denser US East Coast cities with better cycling infrastructure (link), than the sprawling Midwest and West.

In any case I have previously posted:
The take rate of cycling as a mode share for transportation has been done a significant disservice by the concept of vehicular cycling. I don’t need to develop this statement any further as the proof is in the pudding.
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Old 04-07-20, 05:14 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by speyfitter View Post
So I appreciate everyone's input and value any further input on this topic as well.

I'm curious if any of you (or someone you know) has been involved in a collision on a multi use path with a pedestrian or other user? Have you or anyone you know had to go to court over a collision and if so, what happened? Does anyone carry insurance, which I'm told is offered in some jurisdictions to cover you in the event of a collision as a cyclist with a pedestrian, other cyclist, or vehicle? Ever had to use it?
A number of years ago I had a nasty crash as I tried to avoid a small dog on a rail-trail/MUP. The dog was on a long retractable leash and was in the bush on the side of the trail opposite to the dog's owner. The dog came out of the bush and was directly in front of me. I swerved to miss it and hit some loose gravel at the edge of the trail and the bike slid out from under me. That resulted in a lot of scrapes on arms and legs with tiny bits embedded in those scrapes. Since I live alone I had to go to the ER to get them to scrub out the wounds I couldn't reach and get a Tetanus shot and antibiotics.

Btw, the idiot woman dog owner was not the least bit apologetic.

Cheers
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Old 04-07-20, 08:59 PM
  #47  
Gresp15C
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The MUP's are pretty tame in my locale. One that was originally named "southwest commuter path" is now just "southwest path" Even on the most busy days, the traffic just isn't extreme, and if it is, then I slow down. After one or two rides it's easy to recognize the stretches where you can really open up. The paths turn to gravel after a couple miles out of town, and the roadies take to the roads at that point.

Closer to downtown, they can get pretty busy. Riding through the college neighborhood on football game day, might as well walk the bike. The stretch that's along the lakefront, well, that's really a pedestrian area anyway, has a separate marked bike lane, and folks are generally cool about it.

It gets more crowded in nicer weather. That's a benefit of riding in crappy weather

Perhaps my main annoyance is that I'll slow down behind some slow riders or pedestrians while someone is coming the other way, and someone will blow past me and in between everybody without even announcing.
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Old 04-08-20, 03:02 AM
  #48  
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I really like the idea, some of the mups go through nice parts of the city and get you away from the traffic chaos. They're a good way to casually explore a new place without traffic pressure forcing you onwards.

For actually getting somewhere on the bike or doing a workout I prefer to use the roads as I can cycle as fast I am able. Mups are for the casual cruiser, a safer place for a family cycling with their kids or casually getting to work.

I like the mups that have a line between the cycle and pedestrian section as you can cycle a little faster and have plenty of time to warn pedestrians you're on your way. On the mup my bell is always being used. I don't really like mups that are essentially slightly wider sidewalks with no markings.
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Old 04-08-20, 04:00 PM
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Jim from Boston
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So what's your beef with Multi-Use Pathes?
Originally Posted by JayKay3000 View Post
I really like the idea, some of the mups go through nice parts of the city and get you away from the traffic chaos. They're a good way to casually explore a new place without traffic pressure forcing you onwards.

For actually getting somewhere on the bike or doing a workout I prefer to use the roads as I can cycle as fast I am able. Mups are for the casual cruiser, a safer place for a family cycling with their kids or casually getting to work.
10+ to that assessment. Even further, I posted earlier on this thread
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
...My own thought is that a MUP is not so much a commuter route, or training venue, but a pastoral park, where people can enjoy themselves without too many worries, and needn’t be always vigilant, as is a cyclist on the Road...
Originally Posted by B. Carfree View Post
….Not surprisingly, this has an impact in terms of how many people are willing to even try riding a bike since there is no way to get anywhere in the US without riding on a road
”Getting somewhere” is the essence of a vehicle, be it pleasure, touring. utility, commuting etc (by bike) yet “vehicular cycling” on a road is derided in comparison to separated bike infrastructure.
Originally Posted by speyfitter View Post
Yeah we should be grateful for being 40+ years behind Europe in bike infrastructure in North America due to a guy who thought vehicular cycling was the way to go over separated cycling infrastructure.
Originally Posted by speyfitter View Post
The take rate of cycling as a mode share for transportation has been done a significant disservice by the concept of vehicular cycling. I don’t need to develop this statement any further as the proof is in the pudding.
I think of vehicular cycling in a technical sense as lane positioning on the road..."Take the Lane." But as @B. Carfree also commented:
Originally Posted by B. Carfree View Post
Some people, mostly people who are relatively new to cycling, think we should use the few dollars that can go towards improving conditions for cycling by building a few miles of separated infrastructure and place it mostly on urban roads (with the inevitable intersection failures [and slower user mishaps (link)]).
Historically, back in the 19th century when cycling was a new, innovative mode of transportation, advocates like the League of American Wheelman were powerful enough to agitate for better roads, as Multi-Use Pathes, with the horses and pedestrians.
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
From the Website https://www.bikeleague.org/content/mission-and-history
Originally Posted by League of American Bicyclists: Mission and History:
The League was founded as the League of American Wheelmen in 1880. Bicyclists, known then as “wheelmen,” were challenged by rutted roads of gravel and dirt and faced antagonism from horsemen, wagon drivers, and pedestrians
.
In an effort to improve riding conditions so they might better enjoy their newly discovered sport, more than 100,000 cyclists from across the United States joined the League to advocate for paved roads. The success of the League in its first advocacy efforts ultimately led to our national highway system.
Then the automobile came along and new advocates could further agitate for even more and better roads, and cars became the predominant and overwhelmingly powerful users.

So now in these days I think it is unlikely that cyclists’ desire for an extensive segregated (and likely costly) bike system that serves many destinations will ever be fulfilled, unless:
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
"The Breakdown of Nations"

...This variation of "Small is Beautiful" sounds like the feudal system of the Middle Ages, that arose during the Dark Ages after the Fall of the big, bad Roman Empire...maybe a post-apocalyptic "Mad Max" scenario.
Originally Posted by FiftySix View Post
I was thinking the same thing about ancient nation states. Then there was the unification of Germany and the unification of Italy in the 1800s, too.

Mad Max is about right, or The Walking Dead. The population of the world would have to be cut drastically to go back to nation states, IMO.

Now, maybe moving to a small country in today's world would achieve the desired effect?

Last edited by Jim from Boston; 04-09-20 at 07:12 AM. Reason: added link to a post by @base2
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Old 04-08-20, 07:56 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by base2 View Post
The only problem with MUPS is the pedestrians that have no concept of sharing or regard for others use of the same space.

Things like walking 3 abreast.

Things like unleashed dogs or dogs with excessively long leashes.

Things like joggers running up the middle of the path. Or, worse deciding to do a u-turn without regards to who they may be stepping in front of.

Things like the inability to understand such simple rules as: "All trail users keep right"

You can post all the signs with rules you like. Americans can't read. Or, at the very least, if they can, they are too special for "rules." Rules are for "the others."

Earphones, headsets, disregard for others, random ignorant banshee children everywhere...Good civics, sharing, concern for others isn't really what Americans do.

Sorry.
Just callin' it like it is.
What universe do you live in that cyclists don’t do those same things, including riding with dogs on leashes that block the entire path? Or are you just blind to bad cycling because you ride a bike? Just callin’ it like it is.

Last edited by indyfabz; 04-08-20 at 08:00 PM.
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