Leinster

Kevcentral is great. His project bikes are fun to watch come together. Thee best part is he’s totally impartial; if the bike sucks, he’ll tell you, and tell you why. And the same if it doesn’t.

Rajflyboy

I agree. Kev Central tells things as he sees it.

Rajflyboy

great example of a workable Walmart bike.

livedarklions

OP is a newbie. Generally, I don't think newbies are looking to buy upgrade projects, so the real question is whether the off the shelf department store bike is going to be suitable for OP's use when compared to an off the shelf low-end LBS bike. "Buy a $190 bike and put $250 of parts into it" is pretty bad advice to someone who isn't very familiar with bikes and wrenching.

I've just checked, and it doesn't appear that anyone is selling new Denalis, so I don't know why we're debating if it's a good deal or not. In any event, the Denali also required assembly by the buyer, so it's already problematic for the newbie. If that's what's being compared, then Bikes Direct and lots of other online order bikes should be compared.

Maelochs

Everyone here who I find rational admits that at the least a new buyer should take a big-box bike to a shop for a complete goping-over---not a "tune-up" but a complete tear-down and rebuild, with Everything checked, lubed as needed, and adjusted properly.

And after all that (probably $50--$100, and possibly they will throw in free assembly and a three-week tune-up) and the person still has a bike with (probably) cheap and non-replaceable parts---as in, the Same part cannot be purchased (nowhere to buy say, brake levers for a Walmart Schwinn Kempo.) Thus, the person has to be ready to spend---as @Unapomer did--another $50-$100 for repair, replacement, or upgrade after a year (note Unapomer has only had the bike seven months---and he Started buy replacing the BB.)

If buying a $200 bike and adding another $100--$200 makes more sense than buying a $400 bike from BikesDirect .... or however people ride, is fine with me. I beat the snot out of a Lot of really cheap bikes when I first started cyclo-commuting because I was broke and free bikes were my only option. I certainly am not going to look down on others who make similar choices.

For people who don't plan to put much stress on a bike, a cheap bike might be the best option.

I will still recommend that people consider a bike as an investment. over a span of several years, the cheap bike, unless ridden very gently, will probably start costing more (replacing cheap wheels, cheap bearings, cheap levers, somtimes generic drive train) than a bike which cost more up front.

I rode from LA to DC, most of the way anyway, on a sub-$500 Dawes without the slightest problem.. I snapped the chainrings off the crank on a cheap Huffy while trying to beat traffic across an intersection.

One bike left me happily at my intended destination, and I still have it. The other left me in the middle of a multi-lane, multi-direction intersection at rush hour with traffic bearing down on my from a couple different directions. I do Not still own that bike.

Again, if the OP is honestly not sure if s/he will really ride much, buy the cheap bike, and either keep it or dump it and get a better bike later.

livedarklions

Your post illustrates something else I find interesting--the uselessness of generalized classifications in figuring out a good bike for an individual. The list of your bikes indicates that the Dawes is a Sheila, a "woman specific" design, and you are, as I recall, a self-described large man. I take it you found that bike a rather good fit or you wouldn't have ridden it across a continent.

Miele Man

I remember an MTB that my mother bought from Simpsons for me. I was riding it and turned a corner when the rear wheel suddenly came loose. It was a nutted wheel. I walked the bike home and discovered that the wheels nuts were still tight. I took the wheel off the bike and discovered that one of the bearing cups had disintegrate leaving a large void where the ball bearings should have been. the problem with most department store bikes is that you simply don't know what you're getting. Bicycle shops here charge at least $40.00 an hour for labour and you'd have to leave your bike with them for at least a week.

I see bicycles now at Canadian Tire that are as expensive as some bicycle shop bicycles. With the bicycle shop you get free service for some time (it varies from shop to shop) and usually people who care about your bike and you.

I'd e inclined to save and get a bicycle shop bike. Then again, some people buy a department store bike because their funds are limited and they need a bike right now.

Cheers

Maelochs

Yup. I have very long legs and arms and a small, very round body---most bikes people say "should fit" are either unrideablle or just get very uncomfortable. (Though I was a bit less round then.) The Sheila, with the seat at max extension and all the way backwards, and an adjustable-angle 120-mm stem, despite being, supposedly, several sizes too small. There was considerable toe overlap. otherwise, it was comfortable.

I also road a Cannondale 6-13, 58 cm, set up for competition. It was the :"right" size for me, but after 45 minutes really tore up my neck and shoulders.

For me, "proper fit" is all about the relationship between the seat, the bottom bracket, and the control surfaces. I usually ride a 56, but Given the right geometry, a long enough seat post, and atall and long enough stem ....

I also have a 60-cm Cannondale I ride with very short-reach bars and (if I recall) a 75 mm stem, angled up at 17 degrees. it feels really big ... for the first few minutes.

So, yes, I agree .... "If you are between 5'10" and 6 feet you need a 58" is terrible thinking. On the other hand, if a shop had tried to sell me the Sheila I'd have figured they were just trying to unload an obviously "wrong" bike on me to clear floor space. it was part of a group buy, the bike I ordered didn't arrive, so I made do .... and it worked so well i still ride.

BlazingPedals

I've never seen a BSO with better than a 7-speed freewheel on the back wheel. In fact, most of them I've seen are 5 or 6-speed. Freewheel hubs are inherently weaker than freehubs. I should know, I've bent enough freewheel axles in the past but never in 20+ years have I bent a freehub axle.

Rajflyboy

good post

except $250 total on the bike (including parts)

and also knowledge gained by working on and adding a few parts to less expensive bicycle (probably the same parts you would want to add to a $400 dollar bike)

Maelochs

Right, but @Unapomer did all his own work, and all the research needed to even know what a bottom bracket was, and which would fit his bike, how to open, lubricate and adjust cup-and-cone hubs ... a lot of stuff which is not general knowledge,., and most people would pay to have done.

Tools alone .... a bottom-bracket/crank puller for a square-taper BB is pretty cheap ... but he had to know or learn what it is and know that he needed it. Most people just starting out cycling, never having ridden and never having considered bike maintenance, are going to go to a shop instead.

Unapomer is an exception. He knew from the outset the bike would need a checkup, and knew from the start that the BB might be a weak link. How many new riders find out only after parts have failed? How many, on the other hand, assume the bike they buy is fit to ride, and only realize when the wheels stop spinning and the mechanic tells them that apparently the bearings were under-greased and over-tightened, that there even were greased bearings?

Unapomer bought $190 bike and put $60 bucks into it ... but just taking it to a shop for a check-up---no labor, no parts---would cost that. The tools, anther $25? Just buying grease is $3. Plus the time on YouTube figuring out what to do ... we forget that to a beginner, every bike-specific term is meaningless. What's a down tube? The tube the seat sticks out of is closest to straight up and down, so it must be that, right?

Also ... if he bends or breaks a brake lever (depending on whether they are soft stamped pot metal, or cheap plastic) he would have to buy a new lever---a name-brand lever---for $30 on Amazon (I looked.) Then he would have to know howto install it, run the cable, and adjust the cable--more time or more money if he has the shop do it. Of course, Unapomer probably knows all that---but most brand-new riders won't.

If the cheap, pressed steel, welded-together chain rings get damaged, he will have to buy a whole new set-up---$45 at Walmart without the spindle.

So, yes ... Unapomer got away with only spending $250---on a $190 bike---for seven months riding, and probably a good bit more riding before he needs to spend more. But add up the costs for a person who did not have the tools or parts or the knowledge to acquire them or use them ....

You mention "knowledge gained by working on and adding a few parts to less expensive bicycle" but in my experience, that is Not what most riders want to do. Most riders want to ride a bike, park it, and then ride it again. They might squirt some oil on the chain, if the guy at the bike shop says to ... but they are not looking to learn to become bike mechanics, and more than most people who buy cars want to become auto mechanics.

So yes ... I think it makes sense for everyone who owns and regularly rides a bike to know how to change a tube, change cables, adjust brakes and derailleurs ... but I also think everyone who owns a car should be able to change a tire. And nowadays, a lot of people just call AAA.

So ... if I was going to recommend a cheap bike to a new rider, I would definitely tell them that they could expect to pay $190 (as did Unapomer) up front,. plus $50-$100 more for the stuff that needs fixing or replacing or upgrading to be minimally worthwhile .... and I would tell the new rider to expect to need to get the wheels trued again in several months, plus possibly other minor things .... which could effectively double the cost of the bike in the first couple years.

I would also tell that person that s/he should really plan to invest some hours in a YouTube bike-repair education, because the shop probably has a (minimum) $30 bench fee, even if all they do is look at the bike ... once they fill out a ticket, you owe, even if they just give the bike back and say "Shoot it, for the benefit of you and the bike."

Also ... yeah, I upgraded my Dawes .... after riding cross-country and for several hundred miles back home. Not because it needed to be upgraded---I just like building bikes, and improving them, and at the time I had some cash. A lot of the parts from the Dawes went onto my old Cannondale, and are still working just fine.

I am pretty sure no one ever took parts off a Walmart bike and put them in a quality frame ... but since the Dawes came with Shimano Claris and Sora, I could get away with using them. And the old Dawes parts Still work just fine on the Cannondale.

For Most riders, I consider the purchase of a Walmart bike to be a false economy---cheap up front but bleeding you of money, riding time, and riding pleasure until you finally trash the thing. Bit I readily acknowledge that some folks get lucky---and also, with a willingness to spend some time and money, those bikes can be made to last ... longer at least.

I got a lot of miles out of a pair of old Sears Firenze rigid mountain bikes while I was commuting .... took constant maintenance and a steady stream of parts taken off other junk bikes, but I really enjoyed the Firenzes when they were working But when I bought a Bridgestione RB4 a few years later, I got all the performance ... and never had to do more maintenance than cleaning and lubing. I didn't have to pay constant attention to every odd noise, I didn't have to be constantly scavenging parts to replace broken or bent or loose bits ..... the quality bike paid for itself in being ready to ride, all the time.

When I think of a new rider getting a first bike for regular riding, I don't think of the sales cost, because the bottom line has to include smiles per mile. If the bike is always almost but not quite working properly, needs regular trips to the shop, constantly develops new squeaks and rattles ..... that's the kind of stuff which can make someone decide cycling isn't for him/her.

I recommend a better bike up front because I think cycling is a great activity, and I'd prefer to see other enjoy it that not.

But, I admit ... it is possible, if not altogether probable, that a person can do that with a basic Walmart bike.

roadsnakes

[QUOTE=Maelochs;21251016]Everyone here who I find rational admits that at the least a new buyer should take a big-box bike to a shop for a complete goping-over---not a "tune-up" but a complete tear-down and rebuild, with Everything checked, lubed as needed, and adjusted properly.

And after all that (probably $50--$100, and possibly they will throw in free assembly and a three-week tune-up) and the person still has a bike with (probably) cheap and non-replaceable parts---as in, the Same part cannot be purchased (nowhere to buy say, brake levers for a Walmart Schwinn Kempo.) Thus, the person has to be ready to spend---as @Unapomer did--another $50-$100 for repair, replacement, or upgrade after a year (note Unapomer has only had the bike seven months---and he Started buy replacing the BB.)

If buying a $200 bike and adding another $100--$200 makes more sense than buying a $400 bike from BikesDirect .... or however people ride, is fine with me. I beat the snot out of a Lot of really cheap bikes when I first started cyclo-commuting because I was broke and free bikes were my only option. I certainly am not going to look down on others who make similar choices.

For people who don't plan to put much stress on a bike, a cheap bike might be the best option.


I totally agree. If a bike LBS wants more then $50.00 to just give a Target bike a once over, then I`d find a different LBS.
It`s in the interest of the LBS to get a new rider interested in biking. Overtime, they`ll be back.

shelbyfv

I think if they offered that Kempo as single speed or 3 speed IGH with legit V brakes and durable wheels, they'd have something that wouldn't be a joke. No faux gears, suspension or discs, no pot metal parts.

cyccommute 

This is the crux of the issue. Unapomer bought one of the "better" bikes available at HelMart. But most people who buy from there are going to buy the $100 Roadmaster Granite or the Mongoose Hotshot. Both are cheap and cheaply made. They are likely to develop problems in just a few miles. The more they are ridden, the more problems they develop. I see it all the time. At my co-op, people can bring their bikes in and work on them. We don't charge for stand time nor for tool usage. We only charge for parts but we replace a lot of parts on HelMart bikes. It adds up over time.

The problem is that just going over the bike once will reveal about $300 of mechanics time at the going rate of $75/hour. The $100 Mongoose above, for example, will need grease in the hubs, bottom bracket and headset. I tell people that the grease in those components on those bikes is about the equivalent of what a teenager can get off the side of their nose in one wipe. It's a lot for a teenager but nothing for bearings on a bicycle. It would be prudent to replace the bottom bracket before it has a chance to grind itself into dust and/or before the spindle twists into an art project. The wheels need to be tensioned and/or rebuilt since they don't tighten the spokes nor do they interlace the spokes. The brakes pads are as hard as diamonds and probably won't stop the bike from walking speed as well as being off balance and/or sticky. The rear derailer is likely to be flimsy and won't hold gears.

And, at the end of all that, you'll have a $100 bike that you paid $400 for. And, even after all that work, the bike would still be just a $100 bike from HelMart. Bike shops reject those kinds of bikes because they don't what to shock a customer with that kind of bill. I see it all the time in people who bring them into my co-op to be worked on. Sometimes we have to tell them bad news and it never goes well.

indyfabz

I know a shop owner who won’t service them because of liability fears and because if he does the customer will complain when the thing is screwed up again a month or so later.

Miele Man

That's precisely the problem we had at a short lived bicycle co-op here in town. Most of the bicycles brought in for a repair, adjustment or donated were department store bikes and when one thing was adjusted it threw something else off. Most frustrating to work on those.

Cheers

Rajflyboy

I can break parts on a 6000$ bike too. Light = expensive = breaks more often.

shelbyfv

I can't think of a Dura Ace or Ultegra component that wouldn't give longer service than the same in Sora, not to mention the other mystery groups below that. Who actually breaks components outside of accidents or misuse? Better bearings, less plastic, how is that less durable? Of course this is all opinion and anecdotal. I expect Shimano may have some info about the relative longevity of components but they aren't telling us, AFAIK.

Kent T

I spent $60 on a nice, used, little ridden 2002 Trek 800 Sport singletrack. It had to have tires aired up (good for another year), new Brake pads, and a new rear shifter replacement is going to be needed before it is ridden again (failed, plastic parts not so robust). But this bike will get new shifters, new derailleur cables, proper adjustment. But this bike so to speak has "Good Bones". It was a good, well built (basic, but not extravagant) bike to begin with. And this is in the first 1,800 miles of riding over 9 months. This bike has Shimano Altus (decent but not fancy, works and works well) and Tektro brakes, no suspension, and reasonably bombproof. The other bike, my $20 1983 Bridgestone Spica, has had one tube, one tire, and ridden nearly 1,800 more miles. Will be getting a new tire and tube for it, new brake pads, a crank extractor, tools for the hub bearing, and bottom bracket, Phil Wood grease, and new cables. And a full overhaul. As it never had one. Kevcentral's YouTube channel is a very good one, and useful information. Sometimes, a good used better grade bike's a decent investment, if you know bikes somewhat well, and how to assess condition of one.

BlazingPedals

Sometimes that's true, at least with the stuff that's specifically marketed to be ultra-light at the expense of everything else. But not for normal parts. I once answered a similar question from a co-worker by bringing in a section of frame tubing from an old scrapped 531 Reynolds frame, and a similar section from a steel department store bike. The Reynolds tubing was .030" thick, the department store tubing was 1/8" (0.125") or three times as thick. Despite having one third the weight, the Reynolds tubing was stiffer and made for a stronger frame.

livedarklions

Wouldn't the Reynolds tubing also be a lot more expensive?

I think the cliche "it can only be two of the following: light, cheap and durable" is pretty much true. The correct trade-off between those three variables is in the eye of the buyer.

Maelochs

The idea that expensive gear breaks with anything like the frequency of ultra-cheap components is pure BS. I have some very light, low-spoke-count wheels which hold up just fine. I have 105 and Ultegra .... nothing breaks, even in crashes. Everything stays adjusted. Everything works better.

The notion that the super-cheap components used on ultra-cheap bikes are anywhere near as durable as the good stuff is a joke and a lie and we all know it.

Nothing against super-cheap bikes ... they are what they are, they do what they do. if a person only needs a bike that can do what those bikes can do ... super. But let's keep our wits about ourselves. No sense getting carried away.

Rajflyboy

keep dreaming

single tracks did an article a few years back about 1500$ bikes compared to 6000$ bikes

you’d be surprised by what they found

cyccommute 

The quote from Keith Bontrager is “Strong, light, cheap...pick two”. It holds up except with regard to the current Big Box Store bikes. They are cheap but they aren’t strong nor light. The (very common) problems I see with these bikes is due to the use of very inferior materials. I disagree with Shelbyfv in part. Sora any more is pretty good and will probably last as long as the higher level components. Even Claris is durable but Sora and Claris aren’t really all that light. The Tourney that HelMart bikes use (usually the only Shimano part on the bikes) are far worse than Sora. New, out of the box, they are loose and easily bend under just the tension of the cable.

The rest of the parts aren’t even as good as the Tourney.

livedarklions

Thanks for the correction--I couldn't remember who said it. I think Bontrager's point is that you max out at two, so the existence of items that are only one of the three doesn't contradict him at all.